Albanians in Greece

[Risto the Great]

No look above.....

As of this moment I am running around half naked in my fustanella and dancing like a horny Zorba to this song..... Opa!

I think I am mentally scarred at the thought of this Daskale.

[macorules94]

holy crap this thread made 6 pages

lol

[TriKilaBanani]

A Greek is not an Albanian.

I asked you what a Greek is and not what he isn't!

What makes a Greek to a Greek?

Every Greek is talking about like the ancient Greeks, so tell me what are in your view the connections to the ancient Greeks? Tradition, Faith, Language or what?

And don't refer to a book, I want to hear YOUR view! I think it's a simple question, but not even one Greek could give me an answer.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Spartan,

The Arvanites would naturally loath being called Albanians, now, what about prior to the formation of the Greek state? Do you think they would have loathed it then?

Arvanites have been isolated from what is today Albania for a long time, 900 years for some...

I have seen the 900 year figure thrown up in the past, perhaps you can help me understand what you mean. In my view, while they may have been isolated from the territory that eventually became the state of Albania, they were not isolated from fellow Arvanite (Albanians), who also lived in some of the regions between. Furthermore, travel was much more liberal during Ottoman times as borders were not properly or securely 'fixed' (meaning people were not generally obliged to stay within their provinces or regions).

I believe this has to do with the emergance of modern day nationalities.

So it would be fair to assume, that the survival of the new Hellenic identity which resulted from the creation of the Modern Greek state, rested its hopes on the elimination of the various native identities that co-existed for centuries under the Romaioi umbrella identity. I think that the people in charge of Modern Greece post-independence did a good job in pulling the wool over many Romaioi (Christian) eyes and 'turning' them into Hellenes, I don't believe for a second that several hundred thousand people fought and gave their blood to have their children become something different to what they are, so different that they loath their true ancestry today. This was also compounded by the West's fear of Russia and the East Christian world on the one hand, and the West's desire to re-create something from the fantasies that arose in their minds after reading some Euripides and Homer on the other.

This is evident from the Arvanites in Epirus and Macedonia(province), they identify much more with Albanians than the Arvanites of central or southern Greece. Probably due to the close proximity of Albania.

I can’t agree with you there mate, there was free travel to and from all areas, picture the following scenario, were it to have taken place in the 1700's, well before the creation of the Modern Greek state and the Hellenic identity, when we were all Romaioi

An Arvanite from Attica, a Greek from Thessaly and an Albanian from Epirus, have all come across each other while trading in Constantinople. Do you honestly believe that the Arvanite from Attica would side or affiliate with the Greek rather than his fellow Albanian? If you do, I am interested to hear the reason and logic behind such an affirmative answer.

[Daskalot]

I think I am mentally scarred at the thought of this Daskale.

Oh, that was not my intention LOL

[King Makedon]

Athens is a macedonian word. It derrives from the ancient macedonian (or for the hardcore greek early slavic) ATA=Father ATINA=(derrived from daddy) or as we say in modern macedonian TATINA.
Ancient greeks immigrated in that city and after a while it became Athenian (with ancient greek population).
After roman invasion in the Balkan those ancient greeks left its old habitat towards other countries, due Invasion of the tribe greki (Albania). they settled in Athens.
When the turks invaded the balkans, they brought also a bunch of immigrants who settled in the major cities of the Balkans (This means Athens aswell, as Salonika).
After the turikish left only the christians orthodox turks stayed, the muslims were forced to leave to modern tukey, while the christian orthodox turks from turkey were forced to leave turkey and settled in modern greece.
So in Athens live a lot of people from everywhere due the harbour of Piraeus and the closeness towards Africa and the mediteranian.
So in Athens do live Albanians, Turks (of chrisitan faith), Slavs, Arabs, Black African, and arabic speaking people from africa,

[Mr. MASO]

YouTube - Athens (ATINA) - The Meaning
Exactly

[Spartan]

Spartan,
The Arvanites would naturally loath being called Albanians, now, what about prior to the formation of the Greek state? Do you think they would have loathed it then?

Well SoM, all I can say is that Ive never read or heard about any Arvanite uprisings, or Arvanites expressing discontent about opression of their heritage/language. If there is evidence to the contrary, I stand corrected, if not, can you say with certainty that they did not loathe it then as they do now?

I have seen the 900 year figure thrown up in the past, perhaps you can help me understand what you mean.

The earliest Arvanites settlers are recorded around 1100 AD-1200AD, approximately 900 years, and continued to come til about the 1500's-1600s I believe. Thats a long time seperated from N.Epirus and what today is S.Albania from whence they came.

In my view, while they may have been isolated from the territory that eventually became the state of Albania, they were not isolated from fellow Arvanite (Albanians), who also lived in some of the regions between. Furthermore, travel was much more liberal during Ottoman times as borders were not properly or securely 'fixed' (meaning people were not generally obliged to stay within their provinces or regions).

I dont disagree with this paragraph, except I dont see this travelling as a big factor in the reasoning behind Arvanites choosing to identify as Greeks. Most of them were settled into depopulated areas to keep the region strong with Orthodox numbers and spirit. Many were enlisted as soldiers, and the rest were mostly farmers of some sort.

Do you honestly believe that the Arvanite from Attica would side or affiliate with the Greek rather than his fellow Albanian? If you do, I am interested to hear the reason and logic behind such an affirmative answer.

I think it would differ on a case to case basis.
An arvanite from Attica, maybe not, Im pretty sure Attica and Boetia were the most densely populated with Arvanites, so naturally they would probably have stronger ties to the ways of their homeland.
However, an Arvanite who had been living amongst greeks for many generations, centuries perhaps, may have a different stance.
To the Arvanite, religious afilliation was what defined ones identity, more-so than their language, and throughout their history they have been fiercely loyal to the Greek church, and are to this day.

[Risto the Great]

To the Arvanite, religious afilliation was what defined ones identity, more-so than their language, and throughout their history they have been fiercely loyal to the Greek church, and are to this day.

I agree with you ... kind of.
The Albanians liked the church so much, the byzantine church symbol ended up being their flag. The "Greek Church" started in 1850 so I am not sure we can accurately associate their attachment to Orthodoxy with that of being Greek. Surely you accept this as quite an assumption.

[Spartan]

Okay then, we'll say 'Eastern Orthodox church' for up until 1850 .

[Risto the Great]

Seriously, I have often heard the 900 year Arvanite argument. What is this based on? Is it because they speak Greek now? This is such a modern phenomena that we still have some people around who remember what is used to be like.

Both of my Grandfathers fought in WW2 FOR Greece. Are we going to see them spoken about as though they had a Greek consciousness in a hundred years time? Far from it.

Can we really say that speaking another language still qualifies these people as Greeks? With Hellenic Goggles™ on, Greeks might feel compelled to embrace them based on current affiliations. But the history books talk of them as readily distinguishable from other races (including remnants of ancient Hellenes). Their form of clothing, their usefulness in battle etc.

Too many assumptions based on the present looking backwards. One could argue it is a Greek thing.

[Spartan]

Seriously, I have often heard the 900 year Arvanite argument. What is this based on?

The fact that the earliest settlements of Arvanites in Greece is from 1100-1200 AD.

But the history books talk of them as readily distinguishable from other races (including remnants of ancient Hellenes). Their form of clothing, their usefulness in battle etc.

I agree with this, Im not saying they are ethnically Greek.
However, thats who they aligned themselves with. And after being on what is now Greek land, amongst Greeks for so many years, I personally have no problem with them identifying as Greek.
I mean, if they wanted to identify as Albanians at any point in their history, they could have.

[Pelister]

What makes you so certain that all the people in Athens have this Albanian heritage?

Well of course not all - just the original population.

[Daskalot]

And after being on what is now Greek land, amongst Greeks for so many years, I personally have no problem with them identifying as Greek.
I mean, if they wanted to identify as Albanians at any point in their history, they could have.

This also an argument that could be used by us, but that will be denied by the Greeks, hipocracy at its finest.

[Daskalot]

Well of course not all - just the original population.

Correct indeed!