Albanians in Greece

[Spartan]

Well of course not all - just the original population.

Hi Pelister
Could you define 'original population' for me?
Im a tad confused.
I was under the assumption tha Arvanites werent settled in Athens until the middle ages. Athens has been continuously inhabited for over 4000 years. Are you saying the first inhabitants of the city were Albanian?

This also an argument that could be used by us, but that will be denied by the Greeks, hipocracy at its finest.

The difference is that you guys dont identify as Greeks as the Arvanites do. However, if you did choose to identify as such, I cant see why the Greeks wouldnt accept it. Afterall, your Grkomani are considered Greeks by most today, are they not?

[Risto the Great]

Afterall, your Grkomani are considered Greeks by most today, are they not?

Yes they are.
It is a Greek tradition to call them Slavophones and they have been trying to slot them into this category going back to Kiril & Metodi from 1100 years ago.

[Spartan]

^^
Agreed Risto
And in that case, wouldnt you agree that my statement, which Daskalot claims to be hypocritical, is not?

And after being on what is now Greek land, amongst Greeks for so many years, I personally have no problem with them identifying as Greek.

This also an argument that could be used by us, but that will be denied by the Greeks, hipocracy at its finest.

[Blue Juice]

Well of course not all - just the original population.

Wrong Pelister.
The original population of Athens were Greeks.

[Blue Juice]

This also an argument that could be used by us, but that will be denied by the Greeks, hipocracy at its finest.

The people who you label as Grkoman have been accepted by the Greeks as Greeks. No hypocrisy there.
Whoever does not accept them as Greeks is the hypocrite.

[Risto the Great]

Wrong Pelister.
The original population of Athens were Greeks.

They were Athenians.
Greeks have not been around long Blew.

[Risto the Great]

^^
Agreed Risto
And in that case, wouldnt you agree that my statement, which Daskalot claims to be hypocritical, is not?

Hey T,
I do agree with your statement. I respect self-identification. However, delusion on the part of the Arvanites about their cultural and ethnic roots is a little tricky for me. I am positive if Albania was a prosperous country 100 years ago next door, then things would be very different today.

No, I don't think Daskalot was attacking you in any way.
I believe he was saying that if Albanians living on Greek land for many years could be embraced as Greeks, then if we subscribe to the ridiculous theory that us Macedonians have only been in Macedonia for 1500 years .... surely it is hypocritical to disallow the right to claim Macedonianness for us.

[Spartan]

And what were the ancient Athenians if not Greek?

[Risto the Great]

And what were the ancient Athenians if not Greek?

They were Athenians. Plain and simple.
They were a member of a Hellenic civilisation.
There was no nation called Greece, there was no attempt to lead all these "States" by one leader until that right was won by war .... by a Macedonian I might add.

I know it sounds offensive. But I see a very simplistic view of ancient races being afforded to modern Greeks and ancient Hellenic city states.

[Spartan]

Hey T,
I do agree with your statement. I respect self-identification. However, delusion on the part of the Arvanites about their cultural and ethnic roots is a little tricky for me. I am positive if Albania was a prosperous country 100 years ago next door, then things would be very different today.

Perhaps you are correct Risto, in the end we are just speculating though when we talk of 'how it may have been'.
Also, the Arvanites know that they are Arvanites, I dont believe they try to hide this in any way, they just identify as Greeks.

No, I don't think Daskalot was attacking you in any way.

Oh no, neither do I.
I have to learn to express myself better when posting, lol.
Sorry if I came across like that Daskalot, thats not how I meant it.

I believe he was saying that if Albanians living on Greek land for many years could be embraced as Greeks, then if we subscribe to the ridiculous theory that us Macedonians have only been in Macedonia for 1500 years .... surely it is hypocritical to disallow the right to claim Macedonianness for us.

Cant argue with that brother....

[Spartan]

They were Athenians. Plain and simple.
They were a member of a Hellenic civilisation.
There was no nation called Greece, there was no attempt to lead all these "States" by one leader until that right was won by war .... by a Macedonian I might add.

I know it sounds offensive. But I see a very simplistic view of ancient races being afforded to modern Greeks and ancient Hellenic city states.

Not offended at all Risto.
The way I see it, the Greeks have been refered to, or refered to themselves as various different names ver the ages.
Hellenes, Achaeans,Argives, Greeks , Romaioi etc, its all the same to me.
You can call a cat a dog, ass, bird or horse, at the end of the day its still a cat...

Anyways, 'Athenian' was never an ethnic indicator, but a geographical one.
Ancient Athenians in my opinion were Greek/Hellenes(or whatever name you would like to insert).

There was no nation called Greece, there was no attempt to lead all these "States" by one leader until that right was won by war .... by a Macedonian I might add.

Just to be historically accurate Risto my good man, I must say that there were many attempts at this.
What do you think the Greeks were doing from trojan war times, until the time of Phillip and Alexander!? lol
Your boy was the only one who made a succesfull attempt....

One more question if I may Risto, just out of curiosity

But I see a very simplistic view of ancient races being afforded to modern Greeks and ancient Hellenic city states.

Are you skeptical only about the Greeks, or do you feel the same about other modern people as well?
For example, do you believe Italians being afforded to the ancient Romans has been over-simplified, or Swedes/Finns to Vikings, or even Macedonians to todays Macedonians?

[Risto the Great]

Ha ha ... I will tell you about the phrase "my good man" when we share a beer one day my friend.

Yes, I see all modern nations claiming exact ancestry and links as being "simplistic" and "optimistic".

You mentioned Philip with a successful attempt. It was done militarily. The other attempts failed because each State had their own interests. A bit like USA vs Canada if you like.

[Spartan]

A bit like USA vs Canada if you like.

The city states werent that friendly to each other.
They constantly fought and killed each other in wars for the better part of a 1000 yr period, to the point were expansion was near impossible.

If I ever come to Oz, we will have that beer my friend.
Sounds like a good story....

[Blue Juice]

Risoto,
Was Philip trying to unify all the Hellenic States to make them Macedonian or Greeks?

[King Makedon]

My opinion is that Philip tried to vipe out the greeks and burn every greek city to the ground which oposed his majesties army of the allmighty sons of the Sun God himself. It was Alexander who convinced him to let the greeks alive,