Origins of Albanian language and ethnos

[TrueMacedonian]

[Big Bad Sven]

I have that book True Macedonian and its a good read, makes me chuckle a few times of the crazy stories the shiptars have come up with through out the years.

You should post up scans of pages 73-76 and page 81 - the talk about the "Ur-Albanian" theory It talks about how many western historians thought Albanians came from the Caucasus, and even how many albanian thought so as well

Its a fantastic book.

[Pelister]

Interesting comments about the Persian origins of the modern Albanians as described by Evliya Celebi.

[TrueMacedonian]

The animosities have been carved deep. Although this is not a war about "ancient ethnic hatreds," there is nevertheless a long history of antagonism between the Serbs and the Kosovar Albanians. The competing national myths -- with the Serbs claiming Kosovo as the birthplace of medieval Serbia and the Albanians claiming they are descended from the ancient Illyrians -- are trotted out by each group to bludgeon the other.

Kosovo's Next Masters by Chris Hedges, Foreign Affairs Volume 78 No.3

http://www.partitionconflicts.com/partitions/downloads/Chris_hedges_2.pdf

[TrueMacedonian]

[Risto the Great]

Ahh the Circassians!
My pet theory .... !

[TrueMacedonian]

I would like to know when this theory began because this book was written in 1877. According to this author other writers have passed on the same info.

[sf.]

I don't like the 'Albanians from Caucasus' theories. The link is based on names (Latin/Roman) given by outsiders to the peoples of these regions. I noticed that there's also a Caucasian Iberia, which I think would have no real links with Spain. It's all suspect to me.

[Risto the Great]

But Macedonia has a history of Circassians migrating to it. It is worthy of more detailed review.

[TrueMacedonian]

[Soldier of Macedon]

Epirot, check the below link for a Thracian glossary.

http://indoeuro.bizland.com/project/glossary/thra.html

Are you able to explain why the majority of the words listed have a cognate and etymology in the Balto-Slavic group of languages? And why Albanian examples fall far short?

[Serdarot]

one typical "albanian" word

domaqin / domakjin

lol

[makedonin]

Ata also means father in Turkish, in addition to Baba. Same as Albanian. But the first word is interesting because it appears very close to European words such as Tato in Macedonian, Dad in English, etc. Not sure if they are related, but possible, if they are, then there is a case to support that Albanian used it before the Turks.

Ata is one of those cognates between Altaic and Indo European.

Ata is cognate to Ot'c (<отьць> father) in Old Church Slavonic.

I found the following interesting:

One of the most revolutionary theories presented here posits the existence of a "Superior Male god," one that had roots in the Hittite weather god and eventually became assimilated to Zeus, whose cults are even more well attested than those of Kybele in later epigraphical sources from Phrygia. The evidence is enticing but tenuous: double-idols that seem to represent Matar with a counterpart of equal importance, a relief from Gordion that pairs Matar with a bull, and dedications to Ata/Tata in Paleo-phrygian inscriptions (including one step monument, though the reading is uncertain), possibly connected with the Hittite and Luwian words for father, atta(s) and tati. Berndt-Ersoz speculates that some of the earliest step monuments were symbolic thrones for this male deity, and that Matar came to prominence along with the development of the Phrygian state (perhaps at the instigation of Midas the Great) and eventually superseded the male god in importance. She theorizes that Midas promoted an anthropomorphic Matar for political motives, to connect himself with Greeks and their cults of goddesses.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_go2081/is_1_128/ai_n31946533/

There were references about Tatos here but now they are gone.

Chashule makes reference of the Phrygian Tatos in his "Burashaski etymologies" book as well.

[Soldier of Macedon]

No, I am not Albanian. Unless there's something I dont know????????? I've just studied a bit of Italian.

I don't believe Macedonian and Italian are linguistically linked, I just think there are a few words (latin) we've borrowed from them.

and, like i said in my earlier post, they've named their fruit salad after us

Hi Bij, I was going to respond to that pic you put up ages ago but have obviously missed it. Just wanted to point out that, aside from the garbage term 'macedoine salade' that was coined by some ignorant European fool, I wasn't aware that this was employed here. For example, as a rule, the pizza shops in Victoria quite often have a 'Macedonian special' on the menu, and it has nothing to do with the 'salade'. It is generally made with more spices, chillies, meats, etc, to give it a Macedonian 'feel', and it means just that, a pizza in the Macedonian 'fashion'.

Is it the same in any of the other states?

[Epirot]

Illyrian origin of the albanians

Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon

I think you should open a new thread and put forth your arguments as to how you are descended from the Illyrians. I don't mean just quotes from writers post 19th century, I want to you to produce evidence of a historical, linguistic and cultural connection that makes sense in a logical context. I would be happy to discuss this with you as gentlemen, no problem, and I will ensure that the thread does not steer towards politics or other irrelevant topics. When you're ready.

I agree wholeheartedly, SoM! Here I'll invite all members to collect evidences pro at contra Illyrian origin of the Albanians. I hope that this thread will not be polluted by political goals or ethnic prejudices...That's what I want!

Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon

I don't know of any examples where Albanians claim (or are claimed) to be Illyrians prior to the mid 19th century. Am I wrong in anything I have said? Do you know of any examples prior to the mid 19th century?

That's untrue. Albanians claimed Illyrian (and sometimes Epirotic) parentage much early than 19th century. Kara Mahmud Bushati (of Bushatlli dynasty - a noble northern Albanian family: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kara_Mahmud_Bushati) established a kind of alliance between Albanian local lords of Northern Albania, Montenegro and Hercegovina. It was called 'Illyrian confederacy' though it was short-lived for many objective reason.

Even the countryman of Karamahmut, the well-known governor of south Albania or Pashaluk of Yannina, Ali Pasha claim himself as descendant of Pyrrhus (of Epirus) and Albanians as descendants of noble Epirots. Many southern Albanian cities (like Elbasan for instance) have had many legends about their foundation when they acknowledged their city as Pyrro's foundation.

Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon

The theory that modern Albanians were related to the ancient Illyrians was proposed for the first time by a German historian in 1774. The first detailed account of the ancient Illyrians appeared in the Albanesische Studien of J.G von Hahn, published at Jena in 1854, in which the author advanced the proposition that modern Albanians were descended from ancient Illyrians.

It's true that Albanesische Studien is the first elaborative scientific account when Albanians are considered as Illyrian remains. But the view of Illyro-Albanian connection dated much earlier...many Byzantine chroniclers attributed an Illyrian origin for Albanians. In other words, 'Illyrian' was employed to denote the Medieval Albanians.