Origins of Albanian language and ethnos

[Soldier of Macedon]

There is also a source (Michael Attaliates?) that apparently wrote of a people called 'Arbanitai' who were transplanted as mercenaries from Sicily to Albania by a rebel military commander called George Maniakos in 1042.

I posted the above earlier as I have seen reference made to it several times. Here is a wiki link about the author:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Attaleiates

Michael Attaleiates or Attaliates was a Byzantine statesman and historian, probably a native of Attalia in Pamphylia, whence he seems to have come to Constantinople between 1030 and 1040. He acquired in the royal city both wealth and position and was rapidly advanced, under successive emperors, to the highest offices (patrikios, anthypatos, judge of the Hippodrome and the vēlon), among others to that of judge of the supreme court of the empire. He compiled (1072) for the Emperor Michael Parapinakes a compendium of Byzantine law which supplements in a useful way the Libri Basilici. In addition to this he also drew up an Ordinance for the Poor House and Monastery which he founded at Constantinople in 1077. This work is of value for the history of Byzantine life and manners in the eleventh century. It contains a catalogue of the library of his monastery. About 1079 or 1080 he published an account of Byzantine history from 1034 to 1079, a vivid and reliable presentation of the palace revolutions and female domination that characterize this period of transition from the great Macedonian dynasty to the Comneni.

Attaliates writes as an eyewitness and contemporary. Because of this, his history is burdened with the usual Byzantine affectations. In one passage, when he talks about the emperor Romanos IV Diogenes, he makes it seem as though Botaniates– a potential candidate for the empress Eudokia Makrembolitissa's hand in marriage after the death of Constantine X Doukas, who was emperor while he was writing– should have succeeded to the throne. His judgment is also affected towards the emperor Romanos, who he regarded as a wronged soul. His writing style is in imitation of earlier Roman historians rather than Greek historians. An example of this is his reference to the senators, though like Nikephoros Gregoras he simply means the imperial officials.

If anybody is able to get their hands on this author's 'Historia', post the relevant citations if they are present.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Epirot, this topic that you created seems to have slowed down a little. There are still a number of questions that have been posed but remain unanswered, I was hoping for something a little more concrete than what you have provided thus far. Do you intend to pursue it further?

[VMRO]

The first historical signs of the Arnauts/Albanians in the Balkans appeared during the 1700's.

Here is a quote from 1906 about the Albanians in Macedonia:

"The original native country of the Gegs is not Macedonia, but the vilayet Kavkaz..! From the ancient times up to now, those people do not know what a common organization and common idea is and regarding the cultural level they are at the same degree as they were in the time before Christ, and perhaps even on a lower level..! The Gegs - Arnauts are an outcome of the savage Kurds. - Dr Niko Zupanic, Macedonia (Etniogafic sketch), Ljubljana, 1904, p.62).


I have many more quotes from various sources on The Albanians, primarily the Gegs, however it deserves a topic on it's own as the quotes primarily mention the barbaric acts of the Gegs.

[Epirot]

Epirot, this topic that you created seems to have slowed down a little. There are still a number of questioned that have been posed but remain unanswered, I was hoping for something a little more concrete than what you have provided thus far. Do you intend to pursue it further?

SoM, I am not historian to give answers for all questions that one poses. I just give my opinions based in references always.

I remind that you asked me to bring any evidence where Byzantine historians tagged Albanians as Illyrians. Here is one:

[Epirot]

[Soldier of Macedon]

Epirot, perhaps in future you will consider making statements which can be corroborated, it will save all of us some time.

I remind that you asked me to bring any evidence where Byzantine historians tagged Albanians as Illyrians. Here is one:

You really need to start searching through the sources you produce a little more thoroughly. The page you posted, which writes "Illyrians [Albanians]" is an excerpt citation from another book by G.T Dennis, which is the actual translation of the letters of Manuel II Paleologus. Dennis' book can be found on the below link:

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=AdbgOudLnj4C&pg=PA176&lpg=PA176&dq=Manuel+II+Paleologus,+G+Dennis&source=bl&ots=vkvUVKybTS&sig=4SgcKQpSbeNnFENtk57H97SPfh8&hl=en&ei=ET1pTJm6Csikcdb6wJAF&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=illyrians&f=false

In the book, the only reference to Albanians as Illyrians is made by Dennis himself in the preface and foot notes, and not by Manuel Paleologus. If I am mistaken, then I am happy to admit it, just as soon as you point me towards the relevant citation which proves the initial point you were trying to make. Until that time, you are still yet to provide any sort of direct reference from East (Byzantine) Rome that speaks of a connection between Albanians and Illyrians. In the preface on page XIX, Dennis writes:

The criterion of a good letter was the "purity" of its Attic Greek, including such items as the dual, obselete for over a thousand years........vocabulary had to be such that a contemporary of Thucydides might understand it. If the Albanians, Serbs, or Turks were not written about in the 5th century BC, they must be referred to as the Illyrians, Triballians, and Persians.

Do you understand what is being said here? The reason why terms such as Illyrians, Triballians, etc were used was due to the 'Attic' manner in which the letter was written. If the Albanians are Illyrians, then the Turks are Persians. Hardly.

[Epirot]

[Soldier of Macedon]

A 19th century map created by westerners referring to your people as Illyrians proves nothing.

[Epirot]

A 19th century map created by westerners referring to your people as Illyrians proves nothing.

and if a map or document of westerns makes known the existence of Macedonians as a distinct ethnicity should we reject it? Don't play with double standards!

[Risto the Great]

and if a map or document of westerns makes known the existence of Macedonians as a distinct ethnicity should we reject it? Don't play with double standards!

The original reason for the thread was as follows:

I think you should open a new thread and put forth your arguments as to how you are descended from the Illyrians. I don't mean just quotes from writers post 19th century, I want to you to produce evidence of a historical, linguistic and cultural connection that makes sense in a logical context. I would be happy to discuss this with you as gentlemen, no problem, and I will ensure that the thread does not steer towards politics or other irrelevant topics. When you're ready.

How does that map help in relation to the line of inquiry above?

[Soldier of Macedon]

and if a map or document of westerns makes known the existence of Macedonians as a distinct ethnicity should we reject it? Don't play with double standards!

Hang on a second, the purpose of this thread was to demonstrate the supposed Illyrian 'origin' of Albanians, not to demonstrate that the Albanians existed as a nation during the 19th century.

I must say, Epirot, this was an excellent opportunity for you to put forth and corroborate your argument concerning the Illyro-Albanian connection. I am left far from convinced.

[Soldier of Macedon]

The first historical signs of the Arnauts/Albanians in the Balkans appeared during the 1700's.

Here is a quote from 1906 about the Albanians in Macedonia:

"The original native country of the Gegs is not Macedonia, but the vilayet Kavkaz..! From the ancient times up to now, those people do not know what a common organization and common idea is and regarding the cultural level they are at the same degree as they were in the time before Christ, and perhaps even on a lower level..! The Gegs - Arnauts are an outcome of the savage Kurds. - Dr Niko Zupanic, Macedonia (Etniogafic sketch), Ljubljana, 1904, p.62).


I have many more quotes from various sources on The Albanians, primarily the Gegs, however it deserves a topic on it's own as the quotes primarily mention the barbaric acts of the Gegs.

VMRO, create the topic, it is an interesting subjects that requires greater clarity.

[Epirot]

I find you Macedonians a very interesting people. On the one hand, you try to diminish the presence of various (and sometimes large) ethnic groups with Asiatic background in Macedonia during Middle Age, but on other hand you take seriously the presence of some tiny Oriental settlers in Albania. What is this if not a double standard?

[Epirot]

They all speak Arnaud, which is like no other tongue. In origin, the Arnaudi were one of the Arab tribes of Quraysh in Mecca. That is why there are some Arabic words still in use among them. When these Arnaud tribesmen emerged from the mountains of Skadar and Vlora, they mingled with the Italians and Franks, and so, during the Caliphate of Omar, produced a language between Arabic and Frankish.

Let me inform you that Albanian has nothing Frankish or Arabic in its vocabulary!

The aforementioned Albanians have a language which is distinct from that of the Latins, Greeks and Slavs such that in no way can they communicate with other peoples. This is enough on Albania.

1308 Anonymous: Description of Eastern Europe

All the Albanians visit the grave, claiming him as their ancestor.

In no way! No Albanian has ever consider him as his ancestor. I guess you missed what Celeby said. If some fanatic Islamic believers consider him as their ancestor this does not mean that they're necessary descended from him. It's like a Christian or Islamic believer consider himself as lineal descendant of Adam or Eva...lol

[Soldier of Macedon]

I find you Macedonians a very interesting people. On the one hand, you try to diminish the presence of various (and sometimes large) ethnic groups with Asiatic background in Macedonia during Middle Age, but on other hand you take seriously the presence of some tiny Oriental settlers in Albania. What is this if not a double standard?

This coming from someone who claims to have an Illyrian heritage yet is unable to produce a single piece of evidence to support his argument? Address your concerns to me, Epirot, the Asiatic presence of who exactly has been diminished from the Middle Ages? The Bulgars? You've been itching to say that, haven't you? Why don't you go ahead and explain the significance of this Asiatic presence in the first place before we move on to 'diminishing' it, or better yet, demolishing the assertion altogether.