Edinstveni Makedonski Zborovi - Unique Macedonian Words (postable)

[makedonin]

What is so hard to understand there: if you have

Compare to the Russian исполать ("hail") and сполать (dial. "thank you").

in Russian, than you can't just conclude that:

I'd say this expression is probably Greek: is pola eti/is eti polla (cf. Macedonian за многу години).

cause the influence of Greek in Russian is most probably null cause of the geographical distance.

Geolinguistical example:

Polish: córa , córka
Slovak: dcéra
Croatian: ćerka
Serbian: кћи, ћерка
Macedonian: ќерка, ќере
Greek: κόρη (kori), θυγατέρα

The dispersion of the word "daughter" is geographicaly through the Balkan and ends with Poland. You can't estimate the word being of Greek Origin. Similar can be expected for "spolai".

There is a trend labeling words Greek, with out even looking at the geographical dispersion of the word it self, which is somewhat revealing!

[Дени]

Or otherwise.

But what are the arguments suggesting otherwise?

The following suggest it is an Albanian loan:

• the secret languages lexically influenced by Albanian
• distribution (related to aforementioned secret languages as use is limited to southwestern dialects)
• isn't derived from a Slavic root
• absence in other languages (except for Greek, see next point)
• considered an Albanian loan by Greek and Macedonian scholars

Frequency of use in Albanian? Please elaborate.

Meaning its use in Albania is not restricted to a particular dialect or dialect area (as opposed to the situation in Macedonia where it is markedly dialectal).

And it wouldn't be easily identifiable as foreign to somebody from Bitola?

No, an ordinary person who uses this word in their vernacular would not pick it as coming from a foreign source (morphophonologically).

who appears to be a Bulgar blogger with a piece of paper.

Yes, he's from Bulgaria. He also studied at the faculty of philology at the university in Veliko Tarnovo, Bulgaria.

Was he your teacher in language and literature?

No, he wasn't.

I think you know what I mean, otherwise you wouldn't have answered the question. You and I have different perceptions of what is 'likely'.

I can't satisfactorily answer your question as I don't know what you understand a 'local construct' to be.

So what exactly are the links between the two groups then, in your opinion?

While the theory for a Paleo-Balkan substrate might fill some gaps, it cannot be proven with any certainty.

In the absence of direct scientific evidence, what do you consider probable where it concerns the origin of the Macedonian language?

The answer to that question is very complex.

Various stages in the development of Macedonian dialects < Proto-Slavic < PIE.

[Дени]

Deni, can you please share with us words that originate from Macedonia?

In a Nova Makedonija article from 1981, the linguist Krume Kepeski says he coined the terms вработување, нарушување and боледување.

All from Proto-Slavic roots and morphologically Macedonian.

[makgerman]

In a Nova Makedonija article from 1981, the linguist Krume Kepeski says he coined the terms вработување, нарушување and боледување.

All from Proto-Slavic roots and morphologically Macedonian.

Are they the only Macedonian words that we can claim to being unique?

Does that mean all of the other words are either Slavic or we have stolen them from our dear Albanian/Greek/Bulgarian or Turkish friends?

[Дени]

in Russian, than you can't just conclude that

That's not my research. It's the etymology given in the two major Russian etymological dictionaries.

cause the influence of Greek in Russian is most probably null cause of the geographical distance.

But you forgot about the influence of Greek through the Church (which is actually where this phrase comes from) as well as mediation through Old Church Slavonic.

Geolinguistical example:

Polish: córa , córka
Slovak: dcéra
Croatian: ćerka
Serbian: кћи, ћерка
Macedonian: ќерка, ќере
Greek: κόρη (kori), θυγατέρα

You're comparing the modern forms of words and essentially presuming none of them have evolved from a much earlier point in history.

That's not scientific.

There is a trend labeling words Greek

Interesting point you've brought up. I'll write a follow-up post when I have a little more time.

[Дени]

Are they the only Macedonian words that we can claim to being unique?

But what do you consider unique?

There are a few others which are in a similar category with those I mentioned.

Remember that Macedonian isn't a language isolate; we don't have any native root words exclusive to our language.

Our language is still unique: we have Proto-Slavic reflexes which aren't found in other Slavic languages, innovations which are unique to our dialects and many other features not found in other Slavic languages. It's this combination that makes our language, and every other language for that matter, unique.

Does that mean all of the other words are either Slavic or we have stolen them from our dear Albanian/Greek/Bulgarian or Turkish friends?

Nothing was stolen. Those loanwords entered the speech of illiterate people and consequently we have the study of etymology. And as we all know this was exploited by nationalists to construct their national myths.

'Slavic' is just a meta-linguistic term. Don't be so averse to the word because some people misuse it or use it pejoratively.

[makedonin]

But you forgot about the influence of Greek through the Church (which is actually where this phrase comes from) as well as mediation through Old Church Slavonic.

That may be or may be not, it is also only a assumption, not that scientific either.

You're comparing the modern forms of words and essentially presuming none of them have evolved from a much earlier point in history.

That's not scientific.

It is true that I compare the modern forms of the word. Unlike you, I look at the root of the word, and not just dismiss it. I have read enough linguistic books, where much wilder assumptions were made by so called linguist scientists when comparing roots of words and "proving" that the one or the other word is of Greek origin. (consider Hoffman for example)

Interestingly enough, there is a evidence that Macedonia kept it's vernacular forms for at least 400 years and that same evidence shows that Macedonians before 400 years had the same form as Modern Macedonian vernacular, which is not that similar to Old Church Slavonic.

That poses the question, why Macedonian (or the other Slavic) is compared only to Church Slavonic? It is because it is in a written form, isn't it?

So if I would be linguist scientist, I would consider only Church Slavonic (or other written sources) as basis for comparation because I have it in written form.

But that is only a liturgy language, with no evidence it was the vernacular of the masses.

So, why would the modern forms not reflect the older forms, why not accept it, when there is evidence that language does not change that drastically as usually thought.

Most of those languages were not written, so we don't know their particular vernacular, so leveraging them and comparing them only with the written one, it does not make much sence either, since those written forms were mostly literature or liturgy languages.

Look at the root of the word, and you will see, that they are of the same root, wich must not be of Slavic or Greek origin either, but rather of some earlier one, which you still can't prove, cause there are only assumption how that PIE looked like, no written sources, exactly the reason why you dismissed my assertions at first place.

I know I know, I ain't linguist scientist, but believe me, I know enough of morphology, metathesis, lenition, palatalization and the rest of the stuff that the so called linguist scientis use to express their theories.

[Дени]

Geolinguistical example:

Polish: córa , córka
Slovak: dcéra
Croatian: ćerka
Serbian: кћи, ћерка
Macedonian: ќерка, ќере

These are all Slavic.

Proto-Slavic *dŭkti < PIE *dʰugh₂tér.

You can't estimate the word being of Greek Origin.

It's a cognate with the Ancient Greek thugater (< PIE).

[Дени]

I compare the modern forms of the word.

I look at the root of the word

That's a contradiction.

Cognate roots in two different languages can be greatly obscured.

For example, comparing daughter with ќерка will get us nowhere.

I have read enough linguistic books, where much wilder assumptions were made by so called linguist scientists when comparing roots of words and "proving" that the one or the other word is of Greek origin. (consider Hoffman for example)

Could you please give an example?

That poses the question, why Macedonian (or the other Slavic) is compared only to Church Slavonic?

That's not true.

But that is only a liturgy language, with no evidence it was the vernacular of the masses.

I'm sorry, but this statements proves you know very little about OCS.

cause there are only assumption how that PIE looked like, no written sources

This statements also shows you know little about comparative linguistics.

[Дени]

posho= bidejki, zatoa shto

Hi, voden-lerin.

Is пошто used in your dialect?

In the speech of Skopje it's usually considered a Serbianism.

[julie]

Hi, voden-lerin.

Is пошто used in your dialect?

In the speech of Skopje it's usually considered a Serbianism.

Perhaps you may care to rephrase that!

[Bill77]

Hi, voden-lerin.

Is пошто used in your dialect?

In the speech of Skopje it's usually considered a Serbianism.

I never knew Skopje was a language what books are you reading????

[Дени]

Perhaps you may care to rephrase that!

Why?

I never knew Skopje was a language what books are you reading????

I didn't say it was.

I'm referring to the urban speech of the city of Skopje.

[DedoAleko]

bizelj-green bean
fasulj-bean
frenka-tomato
patata-potato
chushka-pepper
armasan-engaged
kurem-stomach
kshta-house
pandufli-slippers
...

[Mikail]

I think Kurtuli may be a Turkish word, however, the suffix looks like it has been added for local Macedonian use after its adoption.

We say k'rtol - k'rtoli