Political Scandals and Judiciary Corruption in Macedonia

[Tomche Makedonche]

Originally Posted by julie

Stop making excuses for Gruevski , Gocka !

Can't say I have interpreted Gocka's posts as being pro-Gruevski or pro-DPNE.

[VMRO]

It's easy for the media to show pictures of the protesters throwing things after they have been mistreated.

I'm sure if i slapped someone and then someone took a photo of the person angrily charging at me will be easily manipulated to reflect the angry person in a negative light.

[DraganOfStip]

Originally Posted by ramo

If they (not just the police but all institutions) get non-constitutional orders, in such case they should not obey those orders . it is written in the laws, not because they simply think it is morally right not to obey such orders.

I don't know about the police,but in the army if your superior officer orders you to,let's say,eat your feces - you just place some sugar on top,grab a spoon and consume the thing.
Once you rapport him after that,he might very well be prosecuted and lose his job but at the moment of the order you have to do it.
Hypothetical situation - protesters are protesting peacefully and the colonel orders you to shoot them.It's morally wrong,but if you don't you'll get to court martial for disobeying a direct order from a superior officer.
I've been in the army and I can confirm this,it's in the Rules Of Engagement.
But for the police,I don't know...

[ramo]

Originally Posted by VMRO

Gocka, from what i have gathered, the protest went wild after the police sprayed and hit the protesters... they even hit the brother of the deceased kid and mother...

Also, the reason why they blame the government is that they tried to cover it up based on some sources.

They government tried to hide it, if you remember the incident years ago, government officials were issuing reports that the kid slipped and that's how he died.

Apparently the kid's family were even threatened after the killing to stop trying to find the killer by police sent to their home.


Sounds like high level corruption in Macedonia.

From my observations, the protests become violent after a group of protesters (probably provocateurs ) started using metal sticks and other stuff. It happened maybe 2 hours later in the protest, not when the police started pushing Neskovski mother and brother - speaking about the tuesday evening. Yesterday the protests were peaceful and there were also groups for provoking incidents but they were repelled by the mass that protested.

Julie

West is standing back , FOR NOW, biding their time, what happened in the Ukraine is despicable, wont be long, Macedonia will fall

Gruevski has shown his hand. Phone tapping scandalous.

Well we already have some interviews by the British, German, Dutch and American representatives. All of them said that it is important who wiretapped but also that there should be at least investigation for the things said in the recordings which imply massive corruption, breaking of the laws and tampering elections by using state money and resources and state servants and institutions. And we see no signs of such investigation starting not even in our dreams.

About the phone tapping. There is still not enough evidence who conducted the tapping, except for some listings Zaev presented on press conference with code names in spreadsheets and one statement he gave that there are employees in the macedonian secret service that escaped from the country which will testify that the government was wiretapping but he need guarantee for their lives if they are about to testify in front of Macedonian courts . This is one theory from the opposition and few theories which the government spread depending of the situation. One of them is that foreign services did this, others say people close to Zaev did this and so on. No matter who did this, it happened for few years and not a single man said that he is morally responsible for the devastated security system not to mention that nobody is taking responsibility and resignation. The brainwashing media often mention that one officer in the secret service admitted he did the wiretapping and is convicted to prison but so far they did not said who he wiretapped for. This leads to many speculations. I think that if such foreign service existed they would have told by now million times. The court process is ongoing so we should wait and see what is the official position on this although i do not believe the institutions at all. For the average citizen this side - who wiretapped - is covered by this ongoing court process. The other side - what was/is happening in the society is not covered and there are no signs that this will be solved by the institutions. And this is a very very big problem when you know they will do nothing to regain the trust by enforcing the laws.

Dragan

I don't know about the police,but in the army ...

This is excerpt from the law about the work of the police.

http://www.slvesnik.com.mk/Issues/99...228F4BFE9C.pdf

Article 36 from this law says: The police officer is obliged to enforce the orders from stav 1 (don't know the english word and refers to the authorisation the police has) except if this fulfillment (of the orders) is criminal act.

As you probably know Zaev announced massive protests on May 17 and he announcet them before this protests about Neshkovski happened. There are already speculations on facebook and twitter allegedly from vmro members that the rulling party is preparing for this and is also planning to use army dressed as police officers and private security members that will keep the government in case the police decides to disobey their orders and turns on the protesters side. This is only a speculations maybe to put fear in the people and not go on the protest but who knows.

[Gocka]

Exactly its also very easy to show the opposite too. If the media wants to show police brutality then you take a a few random shots with no context and there you go police brutality. That is the problem with today's quick cellphone videos and instant news, you get an image but no context and you rely on the the presenter to be honest. For example there was a famous picture from the Bosnian war of a man leaning into a chain link fence, he was shirtless and so thin you could see every bone in his body, the picture was in the headlines of all american newspapers, the titles read the new Auschwitz. Serbs run Nazi style concentration camps. Turns out there were other photos taken that day by other reporters of the same man same place. The chain link fence was made to look like it was keeping people in, turns out it was one broken piece of fence only 2 meters long in the middle of a giant field, the guy in the picture was just anorexic, and the Serbian army actually evacuated him and a few other people who were around from the fighting, but somehow all that got turned into Nazi concentration camps, all form one clever picture.

The fact is if you are not there first hand, you have no idea whats going on.

Originally Posted by VMRO

It's easy for the media to show pictures of the protesters throwing things after they have been mistreated.

I'm sure if i slapped someone and then someone took a photo of the person angrily charging at me will be easily manipulated to reflect the angry person in a negative light.

The protests were not nearly as wild as is made out in some outlets, for the most part as Ramo said they were peaceful with obvious agitators showing up to cause chaos. The police didn't actively seek out protesters unless they became violent. The Macedonian police never breaks up protest by force.

Yes the government is at fault for trying to cover up the situation for political reasons, but some people want to spin the narrative that it was the government "goons" that were intentionally sent out to kill. This was just some thug who wanted to beat someone up, and hit him too hard in the wrong place and killed him. The problem is with our "vrski" culture the instinct is always to protect our friends instead of seek justice. It was also be noted that from the recording you can tell that at first DMPNE just wanted to know exactly what happened so they can distance themselves from it, the police were the ones who gave them the run around and tried to defect blame form the killer. In the end they are still at fault but not in the way some are presenting.

Originally Posted by VMRO

Gocka, from what i have gathered, the protest went wild after the police sprayed and hit the protesters... they even hit the brother of the deceased kid and mother...

Also, the reason why they blame the government is that they tried to cover it up based on some sources.

They government tried to hide it, if you remember the incident years ago, government officials were issuing reports that the kid slipped and that's how he died.

Apparently the kid's family were even threatened after the killing to stop trying to find the killer by police sent to their home.


Sounds like high level corruption in Macedonia.

Thank you. Some people get excited and only focus on the parts they want to. Even though I said maybe a 100 times in this thread alone that DMPNE and SDSM need to go.

Originally Posted by Tomche Makedonche

Can't say I have interpreted Gocka's posts as being pro-Gruevski or pro-DPNE.

[Gocka]

Who do you think sent the agitators? Some say SDSM, some say western agents? I say just run of the mill idiots who seem to show up to every protest everywhere in the world.

Originally Posted by ramo

From my observations, the protests become violent after a group of protesters (probably provocateurs ) started using metal sticks and other stuff. It happened maybe 2 hours later in the protest, not when the police started pushing Neskovski mother and brother - speaking about the tuesday evening. Yesterday the protests were peaceful and there were also groups for provoking incidents but they were repelled by the mass that protested.

Julie
Well we already have some interviews by the British, German, Dutch and American representatives. All of them said that it is important who wiretapped but also that there should be at least investigation for the things said in the recordings which imply massive corruption, breaking of the laws and tampering elections by using state money and resources and state servants and institutions. And we see no signs of such investigation starting not even in our dreams.

About the phone tapping. There is still not enough evidence who conducted the tapping, except for some listings Zaev presented on press conference with code names in spreadsheets and one statement he gave that there are employees in the macedonian secret service that escaped from the country which will testify that the government was wiretapping but he need guarantee for their lives if they are about to testify in front of Macedonian courts . This is one theory from the opposition and few theories which the government spread depending of the situation. One of them is that foreign services did this, others say people close to Zaev did this and so on. No matter who did this, it happened for few years and not a single man said that he is morally responsible for the devastated security system not to mention that nobody is taking responsibility and resignation. The brainwashing media often mention that one officer in the secret service admitted he did the wiretapping and is convicted to prison but so far they did not said who he wiretapped for. This leads to many speculations. I think that if such foreign service existed they would have told by now million times. The court process is ongoing so we should wait and see what is the official position on this although i do not believe the institutions at all. For the average citizen this side - who wiretapped - is covered by this ongoing court process. The other side - what was/is happening in the society is not covered and there are no signs that this will be solved by the institutions. And this is a very very big problem when you know they will do nothing to regain the trust by enforcing the laws.

Dragan


This is excerpt from the law about the work of the police.

http://www.slvesnik.com.mk/Issues/99...228F4BFE9C.pdf

Article 36 from this law says: The police officer is obliged to enforce the orders from stav 1 (don't know the english word and refers to the authorisation the police has) except if this fulfillment (of the orders) is criminal act.

As you probably know Zaev announced massive protests on May 17 and he announcet them before this protests about Neshkovski happened. There are already speculations on facebook and twitter allegedly from vmro members that the rulling party is preparing for this and is also planning to use army dressed as police officers and private security members that will keep the government in case the police decides to disobey their orders and turns on the protesters side. This is only a speculations maybe to put fear in the people and not go on the protest but who knows.

[Volokin]

Macedonia protesters return to streets after clashes

Several thousand mostly young people rallied in Skopje for a second consecutive day against alleged police brutality, demanding the resignation of Interior Minister Gordana Jankuloska.

The protesters gathered in front of the Macedonian parliament on Wednesday evening after clashes with riot police the previous day, amid simmering political tensions between the government and opposition sparked by the release of a series of wiretapped recordings allegedly implicating top officials in serious wrongdoings.

There was a heavy security presence after Tuesday’s clashes, during which police said 38 police officers and one protester were injured and 30 people arrested. Police blocked all the streets near the government building, where the rally was initially meant to be held on Wednesday.

The protesters, mainly aged between 20 and 30, called for the resignation of Interior Minister Gordana Jankuloska, who they consider responsible for trying to cover up the authorities’ responsibility for murder of a young man, Martin Neskoski, who was killed by a policeman on June 6, 2011.

"We are gathered here in large numbers, we will get together again tomorrow and every day until we see command responsibility for the killing of Martin,” said the dead man’s brother, Aleksandar Neskoski.

Some of the protesters brought flowers and tried to give them to police officers, while shouting slogans like “You should protect us”, “Put your shields down”, and “No justice, no peace”.

The protests continued for more than five hours and remained relatively calm, even though members of sports fan groups threw bottles at police officers. Around 20 young women tried to stop them, making a human shield in front of the police cordon to prevent more serious clashes erupting.

“Provocateurs, go home,” the young women shouted at the bottle-throwing fans.

The protest ended around 11 pm local time, but the heavy police presence remained, particularly in front of the government building where special units were reinforced with water cannons and armoured vehicles.

The previous protest on Tuesday began after the opposition Social Democrats aired alleged wiretapped telephone recordings of Interior Minister Jankuloska, Prime Minister Nikola Gruevski and other top officials, which suggested they plotted to cover up official responsibility for the high-profile murder of Neskoski.

Police brought in armoured vehicles and water cannon as they attempted to disperse the protesters, some of whom had thrown eggs and apples at the government building. During the offensive, and later in the night, police arrested dozens of protesters in central Skopje.

A young ruling party sympathiser, Neskoski was beaten to death on the night that the Gruevski's ruling VMRO DPMNE celebrated its election victory on June 6, 2011. The killing, attributed to a police officer who later was convicted, sparked protests against alleged police brutality that lasted for two months.

For nearly two days, the police denied the incident had happened but then changed their story, confirming the victim’s identity and claiming they had the murder suspect in custody - Igor Spasov, a member of a special police unit called the Tigers.

Officials insisted that Spasov was not on duty at the time and so they were not responsible for the murder. But the tapes released by the opposition on Tuesday suggested that there was a plot to pin the murder on the policemen alone and avoid responsibility falling on higher officials.

The opposition Social Democrats started releasing wiretapped tapes in February, accusing PM Gruevski and his cousin, secret police chief Mijalkov, of orchestrating the illegal surveillance of over 20,000 people over several years, including journalists, judges, prosecutors, mayors and even government ministers.

As the political crisis in the country heated up, the Social Democrats announced they would launch mass demonstrations on May 17 aimed at ousting Gruevski’s government. However, anger sparked by the revelations about the Neskoski killing caused young protesters including members of the Student Plenum and NGO activists to take to the streets earlier.

http://www.turkishweekly.net/news/18...r-clashes.html

Resistance to government spreading in Macedonia
Source: Tanjug

SKOPJE -- The second day of civil protests against the Macedonian government in Skopje was more massive and better organized that the previous day.

Because of strong police forces it did not take place in front of the Macedonian government, but outside the parliament.

Citizens started protests on Tuesday night after most influential opposition party Social Democratic Alliance of Macedonia revealed that Martin Neshkovski was beaten to death by a policeman on duty, and accused the ruling party and the prime minister of covering up the case.

Some media today report that the police was much better prepared for protesters last night, and that demonstrators acted wisely and decided that instead of protesting in front of the government do so in front of the parliament.

This is said to have avoided the government's intentions to use police brutality to suppress the protest and blame the protesters for the violence.

There were also protests in Bitola and Prilep on Wednesday evening.

The organizers learned their lesson from the first day and did not allow provocateurs, obviously planted by the government, to provoke a brutal police action.

So the provocateurs were left to try to provoke riioting with sporadic actions in which they failed.

The opposition said it will not give up and will spread the protests throughout Macedonia. Protests are scheduled for today in Skopje and Strumica, and tomorrow in Kavadarci and Kumanovo.

http://www.b92.net/eng/news/region.p...7&nav_id=94037

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My question now is who are the people protesting?

Are they young SDSM supporters?
Are they the unaligned public who are now against the Gruevski regime?
Are they former DPMNE voters who have switched sides?
Are they disenfranchised youth?

Or is it a mix of them all?

We have seen recent protests at the high school and university level against certain government decisions regarding education. Are these youth now being swayed towards SDSM as a result of their dislike for the ruling party's actions?

These questions are important for the future political scene of Macedonia.

It seems now, and this month of protests will tell more, that SDSM is growing in power and support, and DPMNE is backed into a difficult situation.

I have a strong feeling that SDSM will profit massively from these events.

[DedoAleko]

Originally Posted by Volokin

My question now is who are the people protesting?

Are they young SDSM supporters?
Are they the unaligned public who are now against the Gruevski regime?
Are they former DPMNE voters who have switched sides?
Are they disenfranchised youth?

Or is it a mix of them all?...

Volokin maybe this might help.

Ex SDSM official spills it: Violent Rabotnicki Fans are Hired to Attack Police

Mihail Mladenovski, who recently quit the SDSM spelled out who is behind the protest in an TV interview with Sitel 3.

- "Sasha Bogdanovic, prominent SDSM member and the Director of Centar's Parking facility is collaborating with SDSM's leadership (Zaev, Sekerinska) to organize the protests with the aim to provoke the police. As a result we have seen SDSM activists brutally attacking the police with tiles, rocks, bottles and metal bats".

"Bogdanovic hand picked the most violent Rabotnicki fans for this task, they are all compensated for their efforts", stated Mladenovski for Sitel 3.

"This is all well organized, apart from money, these hooligans are promised high ranking jobs when SDSM gets to power", says Mladenovski.

izvor: http://macedoniaonline.eu/content/view/27353/1/

video: 38 injured policemen in the violent protests

[ramo]

Originally Posted by DedoAleko

Volokin maybe this might help.

Ex SDSM official spills it: Violent Rabotnicki Fans are Hired to Attack Police

Mihail Mladenovski, who recently quit the SDSM spelled out who is behind the protest in an TV interview with Sitel 3.

- "Sasha Bogdanovic, prominent SDSM member and the Director of Centar's Parking facility is collaborating with SDSM's leadership (Zaev, Sekerinska) to organize the protests with the aim to provoke the police. As a result we have seen SDSM activists brutally attacking the police with tiles, rocks, bottles and metal bats".

"Bogdanovic hand picked the most violent Rabotnicki fans for this task, they are all compensated for their efforts", stated Mladenovski for Sitel 3.

"This is all well organized, apart from money, these hooligans are promised high ranking jobs when SDSM gets to power", says Mladenovski.

izvor: http://macedoniaonline.eu/content/view/27353/1/

video: 38 injured policemen in the violent protests

Hahaha. Slander. Not a single proof. The same thing like the "news" that general Angelov is cooperating with islamic fundamentalists. This kind of propaganda is served all the time on national TV stations. Would you be kind and present a single argument or fact to support this statement given fore sole propaganda purpose. This is the magic circle. One random guy tells invented story, tv station like Shitel presents it and 30 internet media portals spread the "news". Sorry to dissapoint you but the people you see commenting on facebook and pretending this to be big "discovery" know it is a lie. They are commenting from the party offices. Many countries have this kind of internet trolls USA, Russia, China, etc. but the Macedonian trolls are joke.

Gocka

Who do you think sent the agitators? Some say SDSM, some say western agents? I say just run of the mill idiots who seem to show up to every protest everywhere in the world.

I cant guess who sent them there is not enough info. I read that yesterday some guys showed with masks and part of the mob tried to take off their masks and took photos of them and they moved away. I don't think sdsm or vmro will gain from these more violent protesters, maybe the question we should ask is who is about to lose more. The only thing that is clear that it was one of the few spontaneous gatherings happened in the republic, it happened only 1-2 hours after the press conference after the brother of the boy killed asked for protest, justice and resignations of officials short after the press conference.

My question now is who are the people protesting?

Volokin, my best guess will be mix of all you mentioned. I would like to add the same people that protested for days after the tragic accident few years ago. And the high schools protesters protest on another place in front of the ministry of education officially they do not took part in those protests although it is highly likely part of them did.

[Gocka]

Sadly its common practice for the opposition of a protest to send agitators to discredit the protesters. It happens everywhere. Once you portray protesters as an angry mob, the masses looses respect and interest in what ever they are protesting about.

In this case no one knows, its could be SDSM trying to provoke a heavy police response so they can bolster their argument that Gruevski is a dictator.

On the other hand it could also be DMPNE trying to discredit the protests and turn them into a pro SDSM angry mob.

Also possible is that they are hired by an outside agitator who has something to gain be causing panic and chaos.

Luckily the violence was very sparse and both police and even mass protesters were able to shut it down quickly.

There is a legitimate movement here I think the younger generations aren't as embarrassed as the older ones to go out there and protest. Hopefully it continues and something positive comes from it.

Also may I note that posting anything that originates from SITEL is useless since its been proven without a doubt that they act at least at times as a DPMNE mouth piece. Many recordings mention direction connection with Latas and SITEL.