Political Scandals and Judiciary Corruption in Macedonia

[Gocka]

The police in any country only follow orders. morality usually isn't part of the equation. They are trained to follow orders. In the US the police do many immoral things because they are ordered to. I don't buy the argument that Macedonia is different, its not, and Macedonians need to stop telling themselves that they are the only ones. Its adding unnecessary tension to an already tense situation and only destabilizing the country. Violence and sensationalism are not going to help our cause. What Macedonians need to understand is that the process to a better society is slow and painful, we want it all right now. All the grievances that are being brought up are 100% legitimate, and I and any normal person want to see all these problems solved. What we don't was is total chaos and anarchy to the point where the whole country is so vulnerable that it becomes a target for outside influence to take over.

If you haven't I recommend reading up on how Iceland in the face of bankruptcy was able to oust an entire political system and start over without a drop of blood being shed. The rebuilt there entire system form the ground up and also told the banks to fuck off. They did it by being clam, pragmatic, and honest. The first step of honesty is admitting what really going on, not causing drama for the sake of drama.

Originally Posted by ramo

My theory was never that there is excessive police brutality in Macedonia although sometimes it happens, nor that was the intention to the videos i posted. Simply wanted to post about these protests because i thought it was important thing. But since there were very few protests in the past years maybe it is because of that fact.

In USA when there are evidence that somebody is corrupt no matter how good he has done to the society (i am not implying our politicians do such good things) he gets arrested. It is a big difference. Imagine what will happen in USA if FBI starts to imprison (and many other stuff) only republicans and conversations leak about that. Do you think the democrats will continue making fools of the american people on media like us in at the moment? Or you think the courts, the police and media will "bombard" them with all their "weapons". In Macedonia has become a lifestyle to be corrupt and be unpunished if you are with the authorities. The police job by the Constitution and the laws is to protect all person not only corrupt politician. If they (not just the police but all institutions) get non-constitutional orders, in such case they should not obey those orders . it is written in the laws, not because they simply think it is morally right not to obey such orders. Here we see exactly the opposite. Everybody in the authorities does what these high ranked people in the government order them to do no matter if it is against the law.

[ramo]

Originally Posted by Gocka

The police in any country only follow orders. morality usually isn't part of the equation. They are trained to follow orders. In the US the police do many immoral things because they are ordered to. I don't buy the argument that Macedonia is different, its not, and Macedonians need to stop telling themselves that they are the only ones. Its adding unnecessary tension to an already tense situation and only destabilizing the country. Violence and sensationalism are not going to help our cause. What Macedonians need to understand is that the process to a better society is slow and painful, we want it all right now. All the grievances that are being brought up are 100% legitimate, and I and any normal person want to see all these problems solved. What we don't was is total chaos and anarchy to the point where the whole country is so vulnerable that it becomes a target for outside influence to take over.

If you haven't I recommend reading up on how Iceland in the face of bankruptcy was able to oust an entire political system and start over without a drop of blood being shed. The rebuilt there entire system form the ground up and also told the banks to fuck off. They did it by being clam, pragmatic, and honest. The first step of honesty is admitting what really going on, not causing drama for the sake of drama.

I can see your point. But it is inapplicable in Macedonia. People were becoming more and more passive in the past few years. Me also. Macedonia is going down all those years because of that passiveness. Nobody want total chaos and anarchy. This is far from anarchy i think the only people in Europe that are so peaceful are Macedonians. People were silenced more and more gradually and the society was going for worse. With any expression of different thinking authorities are becoming more aggressive and controlling and declaring everybody a spy, enemy and not patriotic. I hardly wait for the bomb in which guevski supposedly speaks about the name change. So the approach of clear mind and clear and practical thinking which you name pragmatic is obviously proven not to work here. So, the struggle is for the society to reverse the direction in which is going, not to increase it's speed toward some positive boundary.

Speaking of the police and the institutions. I am not speaking about immorality because it is the least problem.Here we speak of breaking the laws and not being responsible for such acts because of the blind obedience (for various reasons like blackmails, threats of loosing their job, or the simplest reason - money) of the people that are supposed to be enforcers of the laws - the courts and the police, and correctives and critics toward society - the media. That are the protests for. And i can assure you that many people are protesting against the few people leading the country not against vmro as party supported by many Macedonians.

I think the example with Iceland if i am not mistaken is different analogy. There obviously the government protected the people. Not only the people but the government is/was very responsible. I just read on wikipedia also that there were some court sentences which never happen here with high officials.

[DedoAleko]

Protesters burn the flag.




Link: Another flag ripped off by protesters

[ramo]

Originally Posted by DedoAleko

Protesters burn the flag.




Link: Another flag ripped off by protesters

Do you know what you are posting?

[DedoAleko]

Originally Posted by ramo

Do you know what you are posting?

No.You tell me.

[ramo]

Where do you see burning the flag.

[Gocka]

I get what your saying and I agree. Passiveness is definitely what caused all of this. Gruevski never intended to become a soft dictator, it just happened because the people never pushed back so eventually his grip naturally got tight without much effort on his part. I also agree that more so in Macedonia then say in the US, laws are not enforced. If you know somebody you are above the law. This is also down to the average person. Lets be honest have you ever done anything with a "vrska", I have. We are a small country, everyone knows someone. This comes down to the average person being moral and saying no thank you, I don't need "vrski" ill go at it the right way. A lot of these problems are deeply part of our culture, not just the institutions.

I know you may not want anarchy but some people do. There is a particular minority that we all know is just waiting for the chance to take advantage of the situation. There are outside forces that thrive in this type of instability. That is the main reason I don't want outright collapse of the Gurevski regime. Just look at the middle east, every place where the dictator was abruptly replaced, the country and the people become worse off. Its a dangerous game to create such a big power vacuum because you never know who it will suck up. If Gruevski suddenly goes, the institutions are way to vulnerable to stand on their own.

First people need to all become aware and involved and understand that all of this really matters. Do you have any idea how many Macedonians in ROM have already told me "ah be to e samo politika, nema vrska so realnost". Many people are convinced that this is a political game and nothing more. Gruevski's grip needs to be loosened slowly and when enough of his power has been effectively put back in the right hands, then he needs to be forced out.

Originally Posted by ramo

I can see your point. But it is inapplicable in Macedonia. People were becoming more and more passive in the past few years. Me also. Macedonia is going down all those years because of that passiveness. Nobody want total chaos and anarchy. This is far from anarchy i think the only people in Europe that are so peaceful are Macedonians. People were silenced more and more gradually and the society was going for worse. With any expression of different thinking authorities are becoming more aggressive and controlling and declaring everybody a spy, enemy and not patriotic. I hardly wait for the bomb in which guevski supposedly speaks about the name change. So the approach of clear mind and clear and practical thinking which you name pragmatic is obviously proven not to work here. So, the struggle is for the society to reverse the direction in which is going, not to increase it's speed toward some positive boundary.

Speaking of the police and the institutions. I am not speaking about immorality because it is the least problem.Here we speak of breaking the laws and not being responsible for such acts because of the blind obedience (for various reasons like blackmails, threats of loosing their job, or the simplest reason - money) of the people that are supposed to be enforcers of the laws - the courts and the police, and correctives and critics toward society - the media. That are the protests for. And i can assure you that many people are protesting against the few people leading the country not against vmro as party supported by many Macedonians.

I think the example with Iceland if i am not mistaken is different analogy. There obviously the government protected the people. Not only the people but the government is/was very responsible. I just read on wikipedia also that there were some court sentences which never happen here with high officials.

[Gocka]

Originally Posted by ramo

Where do you see burning the flag.

I see a bunch of siptarcina burning the flag of FYROM. I don't see A Macedonian flag nor do I see any protesters.

[VMRO]

Originally Posted by Gocka

I just wanted to express some observations and some concerns about whats currently unfolding.

Currently there are mass protests in Skopje but also in other cities.

After watching a few hours of footage, and talking to everyone I could get a hold of I can say that there is a lot of misinformation out there.

First this idea that there is rampant police brutality in Macedonia is frankly laughable. Just take a look at the footage of protesters hitting police with pipes, rocks, glass bottles, kicking punching, etc etc. If that type of violence was committed in the USA against the police, they would have thrown everyone in jail, and probably ending up killing a few people. The police are just standing there and taking the beating, so I have to give them much credit, because if someone came up to me with a pipe and tried to hit me, I would knock them senseless.

There are clearly elements at the protests who want to cause chaos and spur violence. Who organizes these elements, well I think we all know.

Secondly, there are legitimate grievances here about corruption and public manipulation. The story about the 2011 killing of a boy by a special forces agent, is troublesome. The problem is that the government was not a fault for the death. The agent who committed the murder, actually beat the kid to death, probably for laughs. He was not on official assignment nor was he on duty. People are trying to put it out there that somehow the murder was committed in an official capacity, which is totally untrue.

Now where the government was at fault is that they were trying to get ahead of the story and manipulate the public's perception about what had happened, and potentially lessen the legal impact on the guy who committed the murder. People are shocked by this? There is not a government in the world who would not try to spin a story like that so as to lessen the political fallout from it. It doesn't make it right but it is also common practice everywhere in the world.

There real guilty part was the police and special forces who were stalling and trying to make up a cover story to hide what had happened.

The other alarming but already known fact was that SITEL and Latas seem to be in DPMNE's pocket.

People need to focus on the facts and be angry about the facts. Lets now make wild claims and put our focus on the wrong things.

One video made me laugh, the second link in Ramo's post above, of the woman screaming like there are about to murder here mail companion. All the police were doing was trying to arrest him, and the woman is hitting the police over and over. Again if that was in the US they would have shot the guy and beat the hell out of the woman. Too much sensationalism and out right attempts to make things seem what they are not.

I does seem as though Gruevski's days are numbered, I don't see a way back from all this. Lets all hope for the best because there are big changes coming just no one knows what yet.

Gocka, from what i have gathered, the protest went wild after the police sprayed and hit the protesters... they even hit the brother of the deceased kid and mother...

Also, the reason why they blame the government is that they tried to cover it up based on some sources.

They government tried to hide it, if you remember the incident years ago, government officials were issuing reports that the kid slipped and that's how he died.

Apparently the kid's family were even threatened after the killing to stop trying to find the killer by police sent to their home.


Sounds like high level corruption in Macedonia.

[julie]

Originally Posted by VMRO

Gocka, from what i have gathered, the protest went wild after the police sprayed and hit the protesters... they even hit the brother of the deceased kid and mother...

Also, the reason why they blame the government is that they tried to cover it up based on some sources.

They government tried to hide it, if you remember the incident years ago, government officials were issuing reports that the kid slipped and that's how he died.

Apparently the kid's family were even threatened after the killing to stop trying to find the killer by police sent to their home.


Sounds like high level corruption in Macedonia.

Spot on

Saw footage of Martin's mother being pushed around by the militarised police
People are protesting peacefully
And retaliating with the force from the police

I am not an apologist for Gruevski the snake, nor SDMS
making comparisons with America is ludicrous

Macedonia situation is volatile, they do NOT have autonomous sovereignty, and writing is on the wall
Gruevski has shown his hand. Phone tapping scandalous.

Miami beach or Washington DC ? Retirement for Gruevski

People wake up
Both VMRO and SDSMS are traitorious to sovereign Macedonia
People that are one eyed blind supporters need to stand back and assess with facts. Take the emotion of out if, and for god sake, stop comparing what is happening in Macedonia to the rest of the world

Macedonia situation volatile - OFA implemented every nail is hammered into the coffin, the IA and EU ( aka US aka NATO ) accession talks , the bastardisation of the church with giving up autocephalous nature, and the absolute idiot VMRO allowing in Bitola Bulgarian nationals hand out passports to Macedonians give up Macedonia nationality, well, does not take a genius to work out what is happening

On the sidelines Albania looking to annex Kosovo and surrounding Serbian villages, at same time will drive the OFA take over west Macedonia because of the OFA, and a Greater Albania is formed

Stop making excuses for Gruevski , Gocka !
And stop comparing apples and oranges, - US today and Macedonia today

People have had a gutful are protesting for a reason. Wish these protests happened years ago

West is standing back , FOR NOW, biding their time, what happened in the Ukraine is despicable, wont be long, Macedonia will fall

Enter partitioning - happening . Its too late

oh, to add, that footage you made allowances for ...
my niece is university student there

I also have a lot of family in Skopje.