Macedonia-Serbia Relations

[Soldier of Macedon]

Territorial exchange between Macedonia and Kosovo.

The links explains a bit but it isn't very detailed. It would be good to have a map with the previous borders and the current one's since the agreement. Anybody have something like that?

[XRVOL]

Territorial exchange between Macedonia and Kosovo.

The links explains a bit but it isn't very detailed. It would be good to have a map with the previous borders and the current one's since the agreement. Anybody have something like that?

SOM, the blue line shows the old border the red line shows the new border. The Kosovo border is moved down towards Macedonia.



In this pic, the blue line is the old border and the red is the new border. The Macedonian border is moved up towards Kosovo.



This satellite picture gives us an idea of the border change in the above picture.



The residents of Debalde protested today. They wanted Kodra Fura and their village (Debalde) to go to Kosovo and the land Macedonia got in Lukovo Pole to be returned to Kosovo.

What that basically shows is that it was not a dispute about farm land and cross-border access in Debalde, but the strategically important Kodra Fura.

I'm not sure about this, but i think the Macedonia-Serbia border dispute has never been settled since independence. Does this mean that the border was never official until now?

[Rogi]

Macedonia and Serbia signed an Agreement over the border in 2001, which was accepted by the UN. From Serbia's perspective, they only did it to 'show' that they still control Kosovo, while the Kosovan Parliament today, does not consider that Agreement valid and opened this 'border dispute'.

Kodra Fura is what it is all about. If Macedonia gives up Kodra Fura, then we will likely lose a war to Kosovo, if ever there was one in future. That is how significant that strategic location is.

I believe it was in 2001 when the Kosovo Parliament declared that "Kodra Fura is ours" after the terrorists managed to overrun a large part of that territory (until the Macedonian planes changed that situation).

It is purely about that strategic location. From there, most of the Balkans can be seen, let me put it this way, Macedonia should be prepared to go to war with Kosovo in order to keep (not gain, it was always ours) Kodra Fura - without it, we are sitting ducks. This is why 'Tanusevci' gets so many mentions, because it is in a strategic location and under no condition can or should Macedonia be prepared to lose that bit of territory.

[MKPrilep]

So did we keep kodra fura or not?
I am sorry but I did not understood it.

by the way, I found this older link

http://www.antiwar.com/orig/deliso43.html

[makedonin]

It was always like this!

As expected, the resolution was passed. In a rare show of unity, all of the Macedonian MP's voted to affirm their nation's sovereignty. Astonishingly, however, none of the Albanian MP's – not one – voted to condemn the Kosovo Parliament's bellicose resolution. Some managed to conveniently "disappear" at the time the vote was held, while all the rest voted against their own country – against the country which they have been elected to serve.

Do that in a western country, and see what happens.

And it was always like this:

Now, with his recently launched political party, he seems to have gotten it. Ahmeti's estranged colleagues in the DPA and PDP, by the way, made a point (on 29 May) of ruling out any inter-ethnic dialogue between Albanians, Serbs and Macedonians. Yet according to the West, those unhelpful Macedonians are the ones who won't cooperate.

[makedonin]

http://a1.com.mk/vesti/default.aspx?VestID=115187

It's there.

It seems that Kodra Fura is remaining on Macedonian side, from the above link:

Стратегиската точка Кодра Фура останува целосно на македонска територија.

[Prolet]

You're right Rogi, Kodra Fura is a strategic place

I would much rather give those Nivi and Livadi from our side that mean nothing to us rather then loose Kodra Fura. The whole war started in Tanusevci, it was bound to be give or take.

All that is our land anyways, the Serbs took Prohor Pcinski from us i would much rather go to Pelince then beg Serbian Bishops to give us permission to go to Prohor Pcinski. Lazar Kolishevski was very generous with Macedonian land, he gave alot of it to Serbia.

[Pelister]

Another compromize ?

So we gave them some Macedonian land, and they gave us some Kosovo land ? Is that right ?

If the Macedonian government ceded ANY Macedonian land (apart from the 150 meters usually allowed each side of the border - then what they have done is illegal.

Redrawing the borders at this stage of the game is very dangerous in any circumstance.

[George S.]

Guys i'm surprised Macedonia got any of it,why because like an example like prohor Cinski macedonia allways gets the raw deal.Usually Macedonia is painted in a corner & told to take whatever is given to it.If we got something then it is very rare indeed & for how long?I agree with Pelister it's another compromise,Anyway historically it's all macedonian land.I think as long as we are not disadvantaged in any way i suppose it's another compromise.

[ohridski]

Serbia's secret war: propaganda and the deceit of history By Philip J. Cohen, David R

In the portion of Macedonia that Serbia occupied in the Balkan War of 1913 and conveniently renamed "Southern Serbia," Serbian authorities undertook a program to "Serbianize" the Macedonian population through the destruction of Macedonia's centuries-old cultural and religious heritage. In the Black Hand over Europe, Henri Pozzi describes the cultural state of Macedonia upon its becoming a Serbian province in 1918:

"Macedonia had more than 700 churches; she also possessed 86 colleges or secondary schools, with 2,800 students and 460 professors; 556 primary schools with 33,000 scholars and 850 teachers. The convents and churches contained inestimable treasures-the fruits of a thousand years of Macedonian culture and thought.

The churches, monasteries and schools have been confiscated, all the priests, all the teachers have been expelled, imprisoned, or deported into Old Serbia. The churches and monasteries, which even the Turks themselves had respected, have been pillaged from top to bottom.[33]"


As part of the program to extend Serbian control to Macedonia, the Serbian language was forcibly imposed on the population, and Macedonian surnames were changed to Serbian forms.[34] Brutal police measures were applied systematically. Common methods of interrogation included crushing toes with a hammer, drilling teeth, and mutilating men's and women's genitals. Prisons were filled with men, women, and children crowded in the cells too small to permit movement. Macedonian women were typically whipped, beaten, and raped, but also subjected to gruesome tortures, such as pouring fuel on their armpits and loins and setting them on fire.[35] Such atrocities were instituted as policy by Zika Lazic, the chief of the state police (and later the Yugoslav minister of the interior), of whom the following description was offered by a French author:


"I was at Belgrade, in July 1932, dining at the Excelsior Restaurant behind the royal palace.... Lasitch [Lazic] came to sit down next to us.... He had just returned from Macedonia where he had been ganising the State Police. I noticed one thing particularly, all the while he was animatedly telling us risque stories about women, he did not stop picking little flies from the table cloth which he would hold for a moment struggling between his fingers. Then, without stopping his flow of talk, gently one by one, he tore off their wings, and with the end of his cigarette, tapping lightly, unhurriedly, he forced them to crawl by burning their abdomens. "With the Macedonian women also," he said to us, "in order to render them amorous, when they are insensible, we place hot irons on a good spot."[36]

Recently I came across this book. It documents some of the things that the Serbs did when they occupied Macedonia.

I don't think that Albanians, Bulgarians, or Greeks have done similar things to Macedonians yet it seems that Macedonia has better political connections with Serbia than any of its other neighbors. Would you say that this is because Macedonia was a part of Yugoslavia until 1991?

[Risto the Great]

The Macedonians have embraced every single one of their oppressors. The Serbian attack on our identity should never be forgotten.

[TrueMacedonian]

Thank you for posting this Ohridski. I have the book and it is an eye opener for those who are interested in WWII. Apparently the Serbs tried to side with the Nazis. Too many Macedonians I talk to have a soft spot for the Serbs when it comes to Kosovo. I say to hell with the Serbs who side with modern "greece" and to hell with the SOC.

[ohridski]

The Macedonians have embraced every single one of their oppressors. The Serbian attack on our identity should never be forgotten.

I agree. How did that saying go again, ‘He who knows not the past is bound to repeat it’. The past should be remembered.

Thank you for posting this Ohridski. I have the book and it is an eye opener for those who are interested in WWII. Apparently the Serbs tried to side with the Nazis. Too many Macedonians I talk to have a soft spot for the Serbs when it comes to Kosovo. I say to hell with the Serbs who side with modern "greece" and to hell with the SOC.

The Serbs and the Greeks have their ‘Orthodox Pride Brotherhood’ type of thing going. But they don’t seem to realize that Macedonians, Bulgarians, Russians, Romanians, etc. are also of the same faith.

many Macedonians I talk to have a soft spot for the Serbs when it comes to Kosovo.

I think this is due to the Albanian minority in Macedonia and the fear that they may separate.

[TrueMacedonian]

Ohridski I don't particularly have that sense of "Orthodox Brotherhood" many people have with other nationalities. I don't care if a Russian feels akin to me through religion. If someones a good person then that's all good. If someones a scumbag then that's all I need to know.

[Soldier of Macedon]

It should be made clear that Pozzi generally tries to lump or identify the Macedonians with the Bulgars, however, that aside, I must say that when I first read this book and saw the details of how these animals treated the Macedonian population and in particular our women, it was hard to digest, very shocking and sad, tearful stuff.

Anybody that thinks racist-type Serbs are a 'lesser evil' than our other neighbours should read this book, they aren't 'lesser' anything, our established republic has nothing to do with them and if they had it the way they wanted they would have it like the Greeks and Bulgars, the church dispute proves that. The 'goodwill' shown by Serbia towards Macedonia is largely a remnant from the Yugoslav days, it is not something that Serbia has done for Macedonia as a good neighbour.