Monuments and Statues in the Macedonian Republic

[Jankovska]

Just think of the "Macedonian Dictionary" so "srpskohrvatski tolkuvanja" and you will get an idea what was happening behind the scenes.

Речник на македонскиот јазик: со српскохрватски толкувања, ред. Б. Конески; том I (А-Н), составувачи: Т. Димитровски, Б. Корубин, Т. Стаматоски. Скопје 1961. 510 стр.

Речник на македонскиот јазик: со српскохрватски толкувања, ред.: Б. Конески; том II (О-П), составувачи: Т. Димитровски, Б. Корубин, Т. Стаматоски. Скопје 1965. 595 стр.

Речник на македонскиот јазик: со српскохрватски толкувања, ред.: Б. Конески; том III (П-Ш), составувачи: Т. Димитровски, Б. Корубин, Т. Стаматоски. Скопје 1966. 606 стр.


I still don't understand why there is not a single volume Macedonian Dictionary instead of the four they have published between 2003 and 2008.

Толковен речник на македонскиот јазик, том I (А-Ж), гл. редактор: К. Конески, ред.: С. Велковска, К. Конески, Ж. Цветковски, Институт за македонски јазик „Крсте Мисирков“, Скопје 2003 (група автори)

Толковен речник на македонскиот јазик, том II (З-К) гл. редактор: К. Конески, ред.: С. Велковска, К. Конески, Ж. Цветковски, Институт за македонски јазик „Крсте Мисирков“, Скопје 2005 (група автори)

Толковен речник на македонскиот јазик, том III (Л-О), гл. редактор: К. Конески, ред.: С. Велковска, К. Конески, Ж. Цветковски, Институт за македонски јазик „Крсте Мисирков“, Скопје 2006 (група автори)

Толковен речник на македонскиот јазик, том IV (П), гл. редактор: К. Конески, ред.: С. Велковска, К. Конески, Ж. Цветковски, Институт за македонски јазик „Крсте Мисирков“, Скопје 2008 (група автори)

You can read the following article to see how Macedonian history was treated in YU times (and still is to a large extent by MANU and the establishment): m-r Pandil Kosturski: KOGA "IZUMREA " ANTICKITE MAKEDONCI? [NM, 1992]

I am not saying this wasn't happening, I am saying that it wasn't forbidden for us. The point is that many lektiri were even in Srpski but no one in Macedonia bothered to translate them. It wasn't against the law to do so, it was down to no one bothering much.
I celebrated Ilinden, I spoke Macedonian always, I studied Macedonian and no one forced me or told me otherwise. I don't want to lie because it's not nice. That's how it was. In Jugoslavian times Mechkin Kamen was still popular, our schools took us na ekskurzii there. It was not the way you guys want to represent it to the world. I am not saying we were not victims in Jugoslavia, yes we were for many things but many things I read here are just plain made up. The Macedonians in Jugoslavia didn't bother much so they were taken advantage. There is never any blame thrown on the communist Macedonian, some of them crying for Jugoslavia even now days. They are to blame why we didn't have many things and why many things went wrong for Macedonia. But I refuse to lie to the world and tell them how I was forced to speak a different language and tell the world I am someone else. That is simply not true.

[Big Bad Sven]

Yugoslavia is a interesting case.

The "yugoslavs" allowed for the macedonian people to declare themselvs as macedonian and let there macedonian culture exist. But from what i understand from my father you also had to learn serbo-croatian as well.Serbo-Croation was the "upper class" language spoken in the high ranking places, and macedonian for the commen folk in macedonia. I guess thats why a lot of the older people in macedonia speak serbo-croation fluently still.

My father went to school after WW2 and tells me that in school he never really learnt about Alexander the Great, and only learned about the ancient macedonians from the old people. Goce Delcev, Pitu Guli etc where given some time in primary school, but the majority of the "famous" people that he had to study about where Tito, Lenin, Stalin etc. Basically he and the other school children had to dress up like little communists and sing about Tito and throw flowers past his car when ever he came to Ohrid. I dont know how much you can call that "freedon".

In Yugoslavia it appears that you had to put Yugoslavia, and the great and god like Tito first, and then macedonia second. If you put macedonia first and decided to against the mighty Tito, you would end up like good macedonians like Chento.

[Big Bad Sven]

Prolet, where you crying and weeping when Tito passed away?

He was very loved in macedonia, but unfortunately he did not say good bye to the macedonians, and the train that carried his coffin instead went to the majority of the other capital cities in Yugoslavia. Prolet, why did the train carrying Tito's coffin skip Skopje?

[Jankovska]

Yugoslavia is a interesting case.

The "yugoslavs" allowed for the macedonian people to declare themselvs as macedonian and let there macedonian culture exist. But from what i understand from my father you also had to learn serbo-croatian as well.Serbo-Croation was the "upper class" language spoken in the high ranking places, and macedonian for the commen folk in macedonia. I guess thats why a lot of the older people in macedonia speak serbo-croation fluently still.

My father went to school after WW2 and tells me that in school he never really learnt about Alexander the Great, and only learned about the ancient macedonians from the old people. Goce Delcev, Pitu Guli etc where given some time in primary school, but the majority of the "famous" people that he had to study about where Tito, Lenin, Stalin etc. Basically he and the other school children had to dress up like little communists and sing about Tito and throw flowers past his car when ever he came to Ohrid. I dont know how much you can call that "freedon".

In Yugoslavia it appears that you had to put Yugoslavia, and the great and god like Tito first, and then macedonia second. If you put macedonia first and decided to against the mighty Tito, you would end up like good macedonians like Chento.

In many places in Macedonia Serbo Croatian was not zadolzitelen but was a choice, like we have english, french etc now. I never studied it but you are right, people did study it and many took to study it because it was 'posh'. I speak fluent Serbo-Croat now and I never studied it only because we wached Beograd 1 i dva tv, Suzana Mancic loto, sang Lepa Brena songs. Jugoslavija came frist for many people not just the Macedonians. All I am trying to say is that no one made me or forced me to speak differently or say I am Jugoslavian frist, Macedonian second. We were thought about drugarstvo, respect. I remember even now days drawing the flags, the Jugoslavian and the Macedonia, red so petokraka. I still have my pioner uniform and we gave pledge in MAcedonian not Serbian. We studied about Goce, Dame, Nikola Karev and were not forced to celebrate only communist praznici. Ilinden was huge, that;s the one I remember. Programes about komiti, turci we had on tv. But we had mirko and slavko and volsebnoto samarce, a programe that was in Macedonian but shown throghout Jugoslavija.
Macedonia lost a lot in Jugoslavia and was treated like trinaeseto prase, I agree with all that. But let's not be like the Albanians, no one forced us to be different. We were Macedonians and never stopped being that.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Ilinden was celebrated in Jugoslavia in the time os SDSM and now.

This may have been the case from a certain period, but it doesn't seem to be the case at the beginning. Here is what Mishe Karevski had to say, the nephew of the great Macedonian leader Nikola Karev, whose family still resides in Krushevo:

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...ghlight=sudeni

Striko mi Nikola Karev beshe pretsedatel na Krushevskata Republika. Trojcata (mishe and friends) megju sebe razgovaravme: zoshto da se sudat lugje zatoa shto bile za samostojna i obedineta Makedonija koga so taa ideja Makedonskite revolucioneri se borea vo minatoto, a nivnata ideja ne e celosno ostvarena so osloboduvanjeto samo na Vardarskiot del, rodniot grad na Goce Delchev ushte e pod ropstvo; nasekade se zboruvashe samo za polozhbata na Slovenite vo Italija I vo Avstrija, a shtom se spomnat Makedoncite pod sosednite drzhavi se sudat i se zatvoraat lugjeto; se shto e Makedonsko se potisnuva, duri i denot Ilinden ne se slavi, proglasen e za raboten den itn.

The early years of Yugoslavia, while beneficial for Macedonians (in the republic) in some respects, was a period of terror overall for self-respecting Macedonians that were not satisfied with the outcome of events concerning their brothers and sisters still under occupation, with the political system that ran the Macedonian republic, and the unnecessary loss of life to our Macedonian soldiers who were forced to fight for Tito's peripheral Serbian territories. By the 70's things had probably become better, which is why generations today can remember the 'good' times, I am positive the generation(s) before them didn't share the same sentiment, except the national traitors that contributed to the misery of the Macedonians.

[Prolet]

I agree SOM thats exactly the case, Ilinden was never a national holiday i cant say we didnt have basic privileges because Macedonian was an official language in Yugoslavia just like Slovenian was but the majority spoke in Serbo-Croatian. Only in JNA the Serbo-Croatian language had to be spoken.

Jankovska, Sure there were books on Goce Delcev but we didnt know 5% about him compared to what we know now, You should ask the family members of Metodija Andonov Chento and Risto Shishkov how they were tormented and even followed to the toilet its called Zalazuvanje (Mackanje Oci) nothing more, those who were the real threats ended up being ran over by Trams in Belgrade or sent to Goli Otok do you know how many people ended up there just for being themselves? Ask the Croats in Australia why they still get shivers down their spines whenever they hear the word UDBA, we lived in Communism, We lived in a Dictatorship if anybody said anything bad about the country or Tito or his people they ended up in prison or worse.

BBS, It was hard to get a tear in me eye, i do respect him for what he done for us to some extent but he is not my leader thats for sure. Like Jankovska said we were the 13to prase, nema cicka za nas just like Gile so the train went from Ljubljana (Where Tito died in Hospital there) to Zagreb and then to Belgrade (Where he was buried) yesterday was his 30th anniversary of his death and they said that only Jovan Pavle had more people to his funeral.

[Jankovska]

Don't shoot me for EVERYTHING that was wrong in Macedonia in the time of Jugoslavia, many things were. Many!. However we were not forced to drop the Macedonian language as Prolet mentioned before. That is a lie. I know everything else that was wrong and I am not saying anything. But some things are made up and I don't like it. That is exactly what the albanians do in Macedonia today. I don't want to be like them. The Siptari say all the time how they are not allowed to speak the language when we know it's not true, why should we be like that? It was not the case in Jugoslavia. It is and was the case in Egej, Pirin but not Jugoslavija. Let's point out the bad things and teach our chidlren but let's not lie. Macedonian was the official language in the Republic of Macedonia. Ilinden was an offical holiday in Macedonia and many others. Let's just stick to what was true.
Ilinden may have been a working day but no one ever stopped us from celebrating it, no one. Many holidays we have now were working days than but also many Serbian holidays and Croatian etc. It was a different system. We were not forced like the Egejci to stop speaking out mother language or stop celebrating Ilinden or Sv Joakim or whatever else.

[Onur]

we lived in Communism, We lived in a Dictatorship if anybody said anything bad about the country or Tito or his people they ended up in prison or worse.

Macedonian immigrants in in Turkey still remembers the acts of Tito regime upon them.

At 1940s, 45 elite members of Muslim Macedonians sentenced to death and hanged with false accusations of working on behalf of Turkey and USA against communism. In the end, 170.000 of them expelled to Turkey at 1950s.

[Prolet]

Jankovska, Why are you so upset? I mentioned that the Macedonian language was an official language however they kept us on a tight leash not just us but everybody both within Jugoslavija and outside of it since the UDBA agents hunted down people like dogs in Europe and killed many of them too.

[Prolet]

Onur, People where arrested if their neighbor even thought they heard somebody saying something bad about the army,police,Tito,Jugoslavija etc thats how bad it was, this is why Tito pumped 70% of the whole budget on the Army and Police. People where scared and intimidated, a police officer could walk up to you and punch the lights out of you and if you go to court they will blame you for it, in those days there is no way a policeman could be wrong or at fault no matter what the circumstances where.

[Jankovska]

i don't like lies. No one made us speak differently and no one made us feel ashamed of our heros. If anyone did feel like that it was individual and those people are low. Talk the truth, ne pravi od mravka slon.

[fyrOM]

Jankovska speak to some older people and ask them how unforced they were. Ask the officers in the Macedonian partizan army who were lined up against a wall. Ask any of the rest who were asked did anyone else have a problem going to sren. For the younger ones a cage does not need only be made of steel. A cage of the mind is sometimes just as good if not better. Macedonia deliberately had little investment to keep them poor and think about their next meal instead of stupid things like politics. Were Macedonians incapable of anything more than farming mining and metal production. In Queensland a Macedonian husband and wife run their own farmacutical company producing a large portion of the generic medication in Australia. Many Macedonians being poor went overseas na pecalejne and sent money back to their poor parents back home but whose foreign currency stayed in Belgrade and was heavily taxed before being sent to Macedonian banks.

As a trades person my dad was in a position to meet lots of people and people just being people make conversation with them. For this reason he was approached by a member of vnatrezni and asked to be a spy and inform on people who in conversation might let on any negative sentiments against Tito or Yugoslavia. He said he was not good at lying and became red-faced and tong tied if he had to lie all his life and would be useless for what they were asking of him. Of course this was a lie.hahaha but he was always knocked back from every government job he applied for which left him and his family poor and struggling until he came to Australia.

I will never belive anyone about glorious Tito even though I had to say how good he was myself. On a plane trip back to Macedonia in the yuogoslav days there were some spare ajoining seats and my mum said I could go there and stretch-out and maybe get some sleep. As a kid I was quickly approached by a guy and a girl in their 20s who broke away from a group of such 20 somethings standing around joking drinking and smoking. Yeah this was back in the day you could smoke in planes. They started up a conversation with me and the conversation quickly went to questions like did I know about Yugoslavia did I know about Tito did I know what partizans were did I feel more Australian than Yugoslav why I didn’t know serbo-Croatian ect. My parent golden rule anyone talks to you like dirt treat them like dirt with every politically correct answer. Why the hell would a couple of 20 somethings break away from the group having fun come to talk to a kid. Why would they ask such political questions. Why as a kid did I need to know the correct answers.

[Onur]

Onur, People where arrested if their neighbor even thought they heard somebody saying something bad about the army,police,Tito,Jugoslavija etc thats how bad it was, this is why Tito pumped 70% of the whole budget on the Army and Police. People where scared and intimidated, a police officer could walk up to you and punch the lights out of you and if you go to court they will blame you for it, in those days there is no way a policeman could be wrong or at fault no matter what the circumstances where.

I can guess. Well, Tito regime was nothing comparing to Stalin`s. He killed millions of people and expelled millions more to Turkey then tried to assimilate the rest.

Our current foreign minister is one of the Crimean Tatar Turks who got expelled by Russians at 1910s;

[fyrOM]

For freedom the Yugoslav way.

[Prolet]

i don't like lies. No one made us speak differently and no one made us feel ashamed of our heros. If anyone did feel like that it was individual and those people are low. Talk the truth, ne pravi od mravka slon.

Jankovska, I want you to be honest with me here, when you heard that the Goce Delcev and Dame Gruev statues were put up, did you feel a sense of Joy deep down inside of you?