Kosovo: News, Politics & Issues

[Vangelovski]

What I have said is self explanatory.

In your own mind.

I perfectly understand you OziMak.

Turks in Germany don't have the natural right of self governing, cause they are not in their indegous theritory, they are not the natural inheritors of the given theritory. Period.

To be more precise, the Turks in Germany can have it two ways:

• Be on working Visum, which allows them to work and stay as long as they want in Germany, but they don't have the right to vote. If they break the law, the Visum is no more valid and they will be thrown away from Germany.

• To take German citizenship and take whole part into the German society underlieing on German laws and regulations. If breaking the law, they will be judged as any other German according to the German law. That can't be counted as self governing. All they can do is join to one of the existing German parties or create own, as they did in 2008, but it is still under German law, and if they get the votes, will have representatives in the German Bundestag, speak German and obay German laws.

So, they don't have the right to self govern them in Germany, which is absolutely reasonable and acceptable. If anyone else says something else, so he should go to the German chancellor Merkel and tell her about it, and than post her reply here. I know exactly what kind of reply that will be.

That should have been the case with Kosovo, but that does not apply on the Balkan, as we can see from the beginning post on this thread.

Got bewahre, dass hier die Balkanregelung angewandt werden soll. Dann haben wir gleich den dritten Weltkrieg.

By denying one people the right to self-government you are denying everyone's right to self-government including the right of Macedonians in Greece, Bulgaria and Albania. Self-government or self-determination is not based on ethnicity, civil law or location - it is a natural right.

Rather, you should make the argument that we have a natural right to self-defence. Even Israel does not question the Palestinian's right to self-determination - because that would be idiotic and undermine their own right to self-determination. Rather, they use the argument of self-defence to maintain the integrity of their state.

At the end of the day, this is the only mechanism that will ensure Macedonian sovereignty over western Macedonia - not some contradictory argument about natural rights not applying to Albanians, but at the same time applying to Macedonians. Neither is this argument of natural rights not applying to Albanians going to physically stop any future declaration of independence or the current disintegration of the Macedonian state.

Why argue against our own right to self-determination when we should be arguing in favour of a competing right that supports and does not undermine our own self-government?

[Risto the Great]

Hmmm I can sense some hostility already. Concessions, well off the top of my head I would say Canada, Switzerland and Bosnia are similar. When a country has over 25% of a minority it is natural for them to ask for rights.

If the roles were reversed, Macedonians would've asked for the same.

It is not hostility, it is justice Uskana.
The 25% is debatable and the Kosovo war did not help.
Canada, Switzerland and Bosnia are nowhere near similar. Why do you feel they are?

What rights were lacking when the war of 2001 happened?

[indigen]

How can anyone compare the Albanians in Macedonia to the Turks in Germany? The Albanians are natives to the Balkans and have been living in what is today known as...Republic of Macedonia" since it's creation. I'm not endorsing the Albanians right to secede, but the comparison made is utterly ridiculous.

The Shiptars (Ghegs and Tosks) and their backers may claim that they are "native" to the Macedonian Peninsula ("Balkans") but these are only ambit claims and based on conjecture, political agendas and imperialist machinations. In the main they (Ghegs/Arnauts) entered Macedonia after conversion to Islam and as Gendarmes of the Ottomans, the first significant settlement and influx occurred after Habsburg-Ottoman War, 1683-1699.

Secondly, at the beginning of the last century (20th) the Ghegs were a small minority of the Macedonian population and there is data to validate this. Most of the Shiptars (Ghegs) in Macedonia (Rep. of) are very recent arrivals (illegal and legal settlers from Albania and Kosovo), especially from WWII onwards. As An example, Blazhe Ristovski says Arachinovo prior to WWII (if memory serves me right) had only a few "Albanian" families and you know what it is today.

Lastly, Ghegs, in the main, are aggressive settler colonialists in Macedonia masquerading as "oppressed native Illyrians" and I hope Macedonians wake up one day soon and pay them back with interest for all their crimes committed against the Macedonian nation!

Detailed info on the "Ideals for "Great/er Albania" and Albanisation of the Western part of Macedonia (Rep. of) can be read at following thread and from accessing the collated links to a series of articles published in Vest (2001) by Dr Violeta Achkoska:

Idejata za "Golema Albanija" i albanizacija na zapadniot del na R. Makedonija

ИДЕЈАТА ЗА "ГОЛЕМА АЛБАНИЈА" И АЛБАНИЗАЦИЈАТА НА ЗАПАДНИОТ ДЕЛ НА РЕПУБЛИКА МАКЕДОНИЈА
Барања за територија, а не за етнички права
Пишува: Д-р Виолета Ачкоска, Филозофски факултет - Скопје

Во текот на 20-от век, на тлото на Македонија, се случуваат бурни, пресудни и далекусежни промени, при што, на меѓуетнички план, во нејзиниот западен дел денес се сретнува една карактеристична состојба востановена со османското завладување на Балканот во 14 век. По пат на колонизација на турско и друго население од муслиманска вероисповед, по пат на исламизација на христијанското население како и миграции на одделни етнички групи, посебно со населување на Арнаути од Албанија по Карпошевото востание (17 век) во Македонија, се одвиваа процеси кои денес резултираат во далеку одминатото етничкото чистење на западниот дел од Република Македонија и негова албанизација. Ваквата албанизација, во голем степен, претставува дел од обмислена и далекусежна планска акција на одредени албански политички сили во реализацијата на идејата за "Голема Албанија" како етнички чиста држава на сите Албанци на Балканот.

1. Почетоците на големоалбанската идеја можат да се следат од прагматичниот став на турската Порта, која, со цел да ја добие поддршката од Албанците пред отворањето на Источната криза, 1875-1878, им ветила создавање на автономен "арбанашки вилает" со центар во Битола. Врз таа основа, првенците на Албанскиот комитет ("Стамболиски комитет" формиран во есента 1877 г. во Цариград) - Абдул Фрашери и Пашко Васа, разработиле план со кој барале од Портата ветениот албански вилает да ги опфати просторите на скадарскиот, јанинскиот, битолскиот и косовскиот вилает. Во врска со тоа, тие веднаш покренале политичка акција кај дипломатските претставници на големите сили во Цариград и организирале агитација помеѓу Албанците. Како резултат на овие активности следувал меморандумот од 24 април 1877 година до Портата во кој биле назначени просторите на споменатите вилаети.

Поразите на Турција во војната со Србија, Црна Гора и Русија окончани со Санстефанскиот мир, биле искористени за нови албански побарувања до Портата формулирани со нов меморандум од 30 мај 1878 г. Бидејќи тоа беа и денови на завршните подготовки за Берлинскиот конгрес, албанската пропаганда несопрена од османските власти фаќала с&цент; поголеми корени. На 10 јуни 1878 г., во Призрен е формирана "Призренската лига", во чии рамки, Абдул Фрашери оформил радикален предлог за територијата на идната Албанија. Според овој предлог, идната албанска држава требало да вклучи четири единици (шалуци), односно во таквата територијална Албанија влегувале: 1. јужна Албанија, со Епир и Јањина; 2. северна и средна Албанија, со подрачјата на Скадар, Тирана и Елбасан; 3. Македонија, со Дебар, Скопје, Гостивар, Прилеп, Велес, Битола и Охрид и 4. Косово со градовите: Пеќ, Ѓаковица, Призрен, Митровица, Приштина, Гњилане, Прешево, Куманово, Нови Пазар и Сјеница. Во рамките на овие планирани единици за формирање на идната албанска држава, Албанците понекаде сочинувале околу 30% од вкупната популација, некаде биле во занемарлив број, а некаде сосема ги немало. Ова, само за себе, зборува дека бранењето на "етничките причини" за фомирањето на Голема Албанија воопшто не држат и дека тие не биле во содејство со територијалните побарувања.

[....]

[Vangelovski]

The Albanians are natives to the Balkans and have been living in what is today known as the ...Republic of Macedonia since it's creation.

What do you mean by "since its creation"? If you mean the modern establishment of an independent Macedonia in 1991, then I would agree that many ethnic Albanians in Macedonia today are recent arrivals from Kosovo over the past 2 decades.

Further, why do you think Albanians in Macedonia deserve anything more than a western-style system of individual rights based on equality before the law? Why do you think Albanians deserve some sort of special treatment or collective rights (which they now have under the Framework Agreement)? What makes the Albanians worthy of the 'one citizen, two (or more) votes' under the Badinter principle?

[fyrOM]

Vangelovski Indigens post and your last post just argued my point. Macedonia is not called Macedonia because of the Albanians. They have a place its called Albania. The Albania population in Macedonia has exploded under Yugoslavia and also in the last 20 years.

Many Turks have lived in germany a lot longer than 20 years but no way can they ever claim natural rights. I am not trying to pick on the Turks as I have not heard them say they want to create a separate state inside germany but only use them for the example because they are large number in germany and how geographicaly they could not be native to the land they now live in ie Germany. Understand I AM saying they can be good germans and help the country advance but they cannot claim natural rights and rip a part of germany for a separate state.

Just because the Albanians are not as distant geographically as my german example does not mean every Albanian in Macedonia today can say they are the product of people who have lived on this land for millennia. Their ancestry could stretch to as little as 10 or 20 years ago or a few could say 200 or 300 years ago but it does not and never will change the point they are not native Macedonians and thus have no natural rights.

It is exactly the point the Albanians and greeks and west are pointing at the Macedonians. If we are some blowins a few centuries ago then we have no firm claim on Macedonia as a whole and the greeks are being gracious in their compromise to let us use the word Macedonia to describe our country and selves so long as we make it clear we are a kind of Macedonian but not THE Macedonians by using some prefix or suffix. It then follows if we cannot claim natural rights we can only claim human rights to our little patch in RoM simply because we are a concentrated majority of the population who have lived in the one place for long enough. What is this long enough is also a point in the argument. Does this now sound kind of like the Albanian claim in Macedonia. They may not be native but they are a concentrated population who have lived on the same land for long enough so who the hell are you kind of Macedonians to claim all of the land. It wasn’t all yours to begin with. You have no natural rights any more than the Albanians do but you do have human rights and so do the Albanians. The fact most came in the last 20 years we can turn a blind eye to as long as they can claim some Albanians have been living there for long enough. The argument presented is this simple.

Ofcourse its wrong but to push an agenda you have to admit aggression and wrong ie you went and mug someone or you have to explain it like OJ Simpson claiming he was not robbing at gun point the men in the hotel room he was mearly taking back his position and the gun was just to avoid conflict. We all know his argument was stupid but what do you do if the court judge and jury all want a particular outcome. Make the excuse as believable as possible and rubber stamp it quickly. Now its all nice and legal. Get it.

No RTG it IS all about religion. If the Albanians were not muslim then the usa would not give a thought about helping them unless it was a fee for service after all the usa is a slut and like all sluts loves money. I am not saying the usa grew a conciouse she is still a slut just the payment has shifted from meare money to be my poster boy to the wider muslim world and help me convince them being with the usa is a good thing. Payoff less war and cost and lots of oil and other goodies. Remember in the absence of money sluts have been known to take payment in kind.

It is essential we maintain the line we do not only have human rights but natural rights. Its not apples and apples so everyone including the Albanians should have exactly the same rights and so a right to self determination even if it means taking a chunk of Macedonia with them.

[fyrOM]

Think about why Turkey is not the poster boy. Why is Turkey not in the eu. Why is Turkey israels friend and what happened recently. When you stop thinking of human life as sacred and you can think of it as a means to an end like a president who can look at a group of people and say to himself I know 70 percent of you are going to die but I will send you anyway things start looking clearer.

[Uskana]

I can't argue with people that think Albanians are recent imports from Kosova and Albania. All I'll have to say is this, thank the era Rankovic in which many Albanians fled to Turkey in the 50's. Thank the liberal visas the Yugoslav figures gave to the Albanians to allow them to live in the West. If you feel 25% is a great number, the number would surely double if these emigrants that left for the West and Turkey returned.

I also find it humorous that you would question our identity. The Macedonians of today were considered Bulgars and Serbs up as recently to the 20th century. The language, the names you use, your customs and the list goes on and on are barely different from the Bulgarians and Serbs. However, I don't have an issue with you identifying as Macedonian since I believe a group of people can call themselves whatever they like.

[Prolet]

Uskana, How can you say such things?

There are Macedonian Torbeshi living in Turkey, there are Macedonians scattered all over the western world if we take your opinion then Macedonia would be a country with 5 million people. Its not like the Albanians were the only ones who were emigrating world wide, the majority of the Albanian minority lives in Europe while the Macedonian Minority is scattered around Australia,New Zealand and North America.

[Uskana]

Uskana, How can you say such things?

There are Macedonian Torbeshi living in Turkey, there are Macedonians scattered all over the western world if we take your opinion then Macedonia would be a country with 5 million people. Its not like the Albanians were the only ones who were emigrating world wide, the majority of the Albanian minority lives in Europe while the Macedonian Minority is scattered around Australia,New Zealand and North America.

I understand there are Macedonians living abroad, mainly in Australia. But compare to the numbers of Albanians living in Switzerland, Italy, Germany, the US, the numbers are not comparable.

Granted the foreign funds have helped the Albanians survive in Macedonia. However the long term effects of these mass migrations will surely take its toll.

[makedonin]

By denying one people the right to self-government you are denying everyone's right to self-government including the right of Macedonians in Greece, Bulgaria and Albania. Self-government or self-determination is not based on ethnicity, civil law or location - it is a natural right.

I understand self-government as political independence in own national state. I am positive, this is how all Albanians are understanding it.

On the other side, self-determination may or may not lead to a national state, thus separation.

I see self-determination rather on cultural, linguistic level and freedom to participate and represent one self in the existing political system. That is what Albanians in Macedonia have, but not the Macedonians in Albania, Greece and Bulgaria.

That is why I don't put self-government in the same basket with self-determination.

The way you and other Organizations put it is exactly what Albanians are waiting for.

Rather, you should make the argument that we have a natural right to self-defence. Even Israel does not question the Palestinian's right to self-determination - because that would be idiotic and undermine their own right to self-determination. Rather, they use the argument of self-defence to maintain the integrity of their state.

At the end of the day, this is the only mechanism that will ensure Macedonian sovereignty over western Macedonia - not some contradictory argument about natural rights not applying to Albanians, but at the same time applying to Macedonians. Neither is this argument of natural rights not applying to Albanians going to physically stop any future declaration of independence or the current disintegration of the Macedonian state.

Why argue against our own right to self-determination when we should be arguing in favour of a competing right that supports and does not undermine our own self-government?

Still, putting it that way as you put it, it opens only the door for the Albanians in Macedonia to push towards secede of territory. I can see you ain't pleased by the Idea.

The Albanians in Macedonia might even be helped from the powers, as they were helped in Kosovo.

Your hope that your definition will leave the door open to the Macedonians in the occupied parts of Macedonia will be granted the same right as the Albanians in Kosovo is only delusional.

Self-defence on the other hand is exactly what we are ought to do when Albanian separatist are pushing their way.

Self-defence only comes on the scene when direct offence is exercised.

The Government is obligated to secure and defend it's sovereignty and territory, which not necessary has to trample the self-determination of the Albanians in Macedonia.

They have enough given means to self-determine and self-represent them self inside of the existing political system. They have University, they have Political parties, and other means to do so.

Because they have all those means for self-determination, they are pushing for secede of territory and self-government as I described it above.

They want full political autonomy and separation of territory, so that they can join in to the Great Albania!

[makedonin]

Yes Makedonin. This is my disappointment in this issue.
Vangelovski mentions a nation's competing right to defend itself. It seems hollow when other nations are assisting one side only.

As evidenced in Kosovo and also in Macedonia in 2001.

I do deny the Kosovar's their right to self-government, It makes me feel hypocritical towards the Ohrid agreement to feel any other way about it.

Risto, the self-defence talk is all good. But self-defence is to be questioned when one is the originator of the violence and attack.

If they were not to put up and clean their shit alone, with out foreign help, than they should have been quite and satisfied with what they had, and they had it all, more than any Macedonian had it in Greece.

In ancient times, two sides clashed, the loser was rolled flat. There was no big brother to come out and save the day.

The big brother of today is doing so out of own interest.

So, I can't share your sentiment and feel hypocritical about it, cause I know Albanians had all means to self-determine and represent them selfs. The only thing they did not had is self-government in full independent national state.

That is what they were after all along since 1980. That is what they were after in 2001. All masked as fight for human rights and self-determination.

I have first hand experience with them and of the 2000-1 events.

[sf.]

In ancient times, two sides clashed, the loser was rolled flat. There was no big brother to come out and save the day.

The big brother of today is doing so out of own interest.

Off topic: Athens, Macedon, Rome are just a couple of examples of powers that engaged in the same policies.

[makedonin]

Off topic: Athens, Macedon, Rome are just a couple of examples of powers that engaged in the same policies.

Not quite the same thing. Those who were used by those powers as excuse for interference ended up as slaves. They just exchanged One servitude for another one.

[Risto the Great]

No RTG it IS all about religion. If the Albanians were not muslim then the usa would not give a thought about helping them unless it was a fee for service after all the usa is a slut and like all sluts loves money. I am not saying the usa grew a conciouse she is still a slut just the payment has shifted from meare money to be my poster boy to the wider muslim world and help me convince them being with the usa is a good thing. Payoff less war and cost and lots of oil and other goodies. Remember in the absence of money sluts have been known to take payment in kind.

Again OM, the USA is all over the Albanians and it has nothing to do with religion. They don't care about making poster boys, they see the economic opportunity to rape a region and see the Albanians as the easiest ones to influence.

[Risto the Great]

Uskana, say things like Shkup to your friends. It will not be tolerated here. You must understand the Macedonians should never be compared with the Serbs or anyone else in the Balkans. The ethnic Albanians in Macedonia have not suffered and I personally would be quite happy for the Macedonians in Albania to receive the rights that the ethnic Albanians in Macedonia received pre-2001.

Did you not read Onur's assessment of migrants from Macedonia to Turkey? Not surprisingly the majority ancestral language was Macedonian. If they were ethnic Albanians, they knew Macedonian.

I have a theory Uskana, if an ethnic Albanian in Macedonia can speak Serbian but not Macedonian, they are illegal citizens of Macedonia. They should be moved to Kosovo immediately. What do you think?

You seem to have missed answering a few questions:
From me: Canada, Switzerland and Bosnia are nowhere near similar. Why do you feel they are?

From Vangelovski: Further, why do you think Albanians in Macedonia deserve anything more than a western-style system of individual rights based on equality before the law? Why do you think Albanians deserve some sort of special treatment or collective rights (which they now have under the Framework Agreement)? What makes the Albanians worthy of the 'one citizen, two (or more) votes' under the Badinter principle?

Please answer these thoughtfully. We would like dialogue as well. But we require real dialogue not veiled attacks on the Macedonian identity.