Kosovo: News, Politics & Issues

[makedonche]

Makedonche,

Regardless of the process, there either is an inherent right to self-government or there isn't. If you argue there isn't (and I have not come across anyone that has successfully attempted to) then we cannot justify our own cause.

Tom
I understand what you say and yes we should all have the right to self government! That doesn't mean we all do have those rights - I suppose it's determined by where you live and the law of rule in that place!

[Vangelovski]

Tom
I understand what you say and yes we should all have the right to self government! That doesn't mean we all do have those rights - I suppose it's determined by where you live and the law of rule in that place!

I understand the instinct to oppose Kosovo independence on the assumption that it could have negative effects on Macedonia, however, their right to self-government is as valid as ours...conversely, if we were to argue they do not necessarily hold a right to self-government, then that would equally apply to us.

A right in this sense - a natural right - is not something that is given to you by law - its something that you have by nature, by virtue of being a human being. The fact that it is or is not enshrined in law is irrelevant.

Take the Macedonian revolutionaries of the 19th/20th centuries as an example. What Ottoman law provided for their rebellion against the empire?

[Prolet]

Serbia has an accord signed by the UN stating that Kosovo is part of their territory, if this is how the ICJ can rule on something so bluntly obvious i wonder if they will do the same for the Greeks Breaking the Intrim Accord.

Its like owning a valid land title to a house and a court saying that its not yours, this now opens the doors for any region to simply declare independence on somebody elses territory and like Onur mentioned there are so many examples like the Basques in Spain too.

Onur, Im not sure if you are aware but there are more then 200,000 Macedonians in Albania we have the capability to take away all of Eastern Albania away from them but we are not radicals like the Albanians in Macedonia and Kosovo.

What guarantees will we have now as Macedonians in our country from having Albanian Radicals taking land away from our territory. If they can do it to Serbia they can do it to us or any other neighboring country.

[makedonche]

I understand the instinct to oppose Kosovo independence on the assumption that it could have negative effects on Macedonia, however, their right to self-government is as valid as ours...conversely, if we were to argue they do not necessarily hold a right to self-government, then that would equally apply to us.

A right in this sense - a natural right - is not something that is given to you by law - its something that you have by nature, by virtue of being a human being. The fact that it is or is not enshrined in law is irrelevant.

Take the Macedonian revolutionaries of the 19th/20th centuries as an example. What Ottoman law provided for their rebellion against the empire?

Tom
Understood, here's a question for you along similar lines, interested in your opinion: " The albanians in Macedonia decide to congregate around Tetovo and occupy the area in mass and are the dominant population there - they decide to demand self government and wish to be known as North Albanians and their area as Northern Albania - and then proceed to demand a separate state and separate republic by virtue of their right to self government, is this within those "rights of self government" ? Should ROM concede? Should they be allowed to calim a part of ROM?

[Vangelovski]

Tom
Understood, here's a question for you along similar lines, interested in your opinion: " The albanians in Macedonia decide to congregate around Tetovo and occupy the area in mass and are the dominant population there - they decide to demand self government and wish to be known as North Albanians and their area as Northern Albania - and then proceed to demand a separate state and separate republic by virtue of their right to self government, is this within those "rights of self government" ? Should ROM concede? Should they be allowed to calim a part of ROM?

Makedonche,

Of course they have a right to self-government - and to an extent, they have been exercising this right for years now.

However, we also have a conflicting right to self-defence - and to the victor go the spoils.

I've noticed many Macedonians are afraid that the Albanians might secede from Macedonia. If you take a closer look, you'll find that they virtually have. They run Tetovo, Gostivar and Debar (and to a certain degree Struga) like their own little fiefdoms – a result of the ethnic-based decentralisation/segregation reforms. Rather than worrying about whether the Albanians will secede, we should be worrying about how we can reintegrate them back into the Macedonian state, because for all practical purposes, they already excercise a form of defacto self-government.

[makedonche]

Makedonche,

Of course they have a right to self-government - and to an extent, they have been exercising this right for years now.

However, we also have a conflicting right to self-defence - and to the victor go the spoils.

I've noticed many Macedonians are afraid that the Albanians might secede from Macedonia. If you take a closer look, you'll find that they virtually have. They run Tetovo, Gostivar and Debar (and to a certain degree Struga) like their own little fiefdoms – a result of the ethnic-based decentralisation/segregation reforms. Rather than worrying about whether the Albanians will secede, we should be worrying about how we can reintegrate them back into the Macedonian state, because for all practical purposes, they already excercise a form of defacto self-government.

Tom
I don't think they want to be re-integrated, if I hypothesized further I may draw the conclusion that they have effectively devised a method of attaining their "Greater Albania idea", by firstly creating Kosovo, then they can create Northern Albania then they can create North Western Albania(or whatever names they choose) and then eventually deciding to fall under the auspices of Tirana for the sake of administration and cost cutting - before you know it there's your "greater Albania" - not just in theory!

[Vangelovski]

Tom
I don't think they want to be re-integrated, if I hypothesized further I may draw the conclusion that they have effectively devised a method of attaining their "Greater Albania idea", by firstly creating Kosovo, then they can create Northern Albania then they can create North Western Albania(or whatever names they choose) and then eventually deciding to fall under the auspices of Tirana for the sake of administration and cost cutting - before you know it there's your "greater Albania" - not just in theory!

Of course they do not want to be re-integrated. However, that in no way diminishes or invalidates our right to self-defence.

We need to catch up with reality - there is no sense in trying to argue that Albanians (as opposed to every other people) have no right to self-government when a) they have already established self-governing units within the Macedonian state and b) the arugement is hypocritical and undermines our own natural right to self-government.

The real question is whether the Macedonian people will now defend their territory and re-integrate these regions under central control.

[makedonche]

Of course they do not want to be re-integrated. However, that in no way diminishes or invalidates our right to self-defence.

We need to catch up with reality - there is no sense in trying to argue that Albanians (as opposed to every other people) have no right to self-government when a) they have already established self-governing units within the Macedonian state and b) the arugement is hypocritical and undermines our own natural right to self-government.

The real question is whether the Macedonian people will now defend their territory and re-integrate these regions under central control.

And if the Macedonians don't bring them under central control I assume that gives those minority groups the ability to declare independence?
If so then the "Greater Minority(Albanian)" idea bears fruit again?

[Jankovska]

Kosovo independence is illegal and should be treated as one. There is no way in the world anyone in their right mind can say it's legal and valid. Kosovo is a Serbian territory populated by terrorist and murderers.

[makedonche]

Kosovo independence is illegal and should be treated as one. There is no way in the world anyone in their right mind can say it's legal and valid. Kosovo is a Serbian territory populated by terrorist and murderers.

Jankovska
That's exactly what I think as well and allowing Kosovo independence sets a dangerous prededence, right at our very doorstep!

[makedonin]

The problem with Kosovo is not the right of self govern.

They were Authonomus even under YU. They had University to learn in Albanian, had their local Government in Albanian. All towns in Kosovo were bilingual, from shops to road shields. They just didn't want the Serbs there that is all.

So the dispute is about how this came into being!

In short, there were almost equal numbers of Serbs and Albanians in Kosovo.

Than they started to fight for independence. Their butt was kicked, and NATO came in, and Albanians were the winners. Than the retribution begann, while NATO was just watching! Serbs were killed on the streets in front of NATO soldiers. I was there, have seen it with my very eyes. NATO was raiding the Serb villages for guns, while Albanian villages were left out. Albanians kept their arms, were even supplied by foreign handlers.
Cause the retribution and unarmed situation tounsands of Serbs fled from Kosovo, while NATO was still watching.

So, now there is the situation, Albanians are majority in Kosovo and they can peacefully take over Kosovo.

But the win over situation is not to be credited to the Albanians, weather to NATO.

And that is the whole problem.

Is that legal, that is the question? That self-government is delivered on the plate by the powers! The other question is why only the Albanians are deserving that credit to be gifted by the powers!

There are many other smaller nations who want to self govern, why aren't they not threated the same way as the Albanians?

Somebody does not have interest interests in the others, that is why!

[Bratot]

Сергеј Багапш, претседател на грузиската територија Абхазија: “Одлуката на Меѓународниот суд уште еднаш го потврди правото на Абхазија и Јужна Осетија за самостојност. Од историска и легална гледна точка, Абхазија и Јужна Осетија имаат многу поголемо право на независност од Косово”.

Аитор Естебан, парламентарец од шпанската Баскиска националистичка партија: “Сметам дека главната последица е тоа дека Шпанија нема да може да продолжи да тврди дека меѓународното право не дозволува отцепување на нова Баскиска независна земја во Европската Унија. Мислам дека со ова е ставен крај на тоа, што е добра вест за нас”.

[Vangelovski]

And if the Macedonians don't bring them under central control I assume that gives those minority groups the ability to declare independence?
If so then the "Greater Minority(Albanian)" idea bears fruit again?

Makedonche,

If the Macedonians don't reintegrate these regions, then who is going to stop them from eventually declaring independence?

Again, arguing that they do not have a right to do so would a) be hypocritical on our part as it is the very principle on which we base our own self-determination and b) does not actually stop them from doing so.

[fyrOM]

Close but not close enough Vangelovski. We have a natural right to self government as do the Tibetans in Tibet. An Albanian in Macedonia has no natural right anymore than the Turks in Germany. Don’t get to carried away with everyone has rights and does this mean the same rights. Simply put NO not everyone has exactly the same rights because they are NOT exactly the same.

As to the question why are the Albanians helped so much I have said in other threads they are the Chosen Muslims. To convince the wider Muslim world that the usa and west are not against Muslims just terrorists who happen to be Muslim and if other Muslim countries choose to be with the west as Albania is they will have much to gain. Anybody apposing the Albanians is playing the roll of the bad Christian who is beaten up by the usa and the west as proof of the usas and wests support of Muslims who are not terrorists. The Albanians became the chosen Muslims because of their long time seperation from fundermental Muslims and any radical elements during the long communist years and are seen as the Muslims the usa and west can most easily convince to support the west and stand up as the poster boy of what Muslims should be like. In the other thread I said it is not about drug running and paying for support. that’s just earning their keep. The will for the support goes for a much higher purpose.

This rulling is a very bad sign.

[Vangelovski]

OziMak,

Which peoples don't have natural rights according to you and why? Will you include yourself in that group and why/why not?