Kosovo: News, Politics & Issues

[Risto the Great]

.......give some rights to the Albanians in proportion with their number.

I agree with that.
But you obviously do not understand the Agreement. The rights extend far beyond their number. Please advise if you understand the Agreement and what I have just described to you.

[Risto the Great]

Why do you think so?

Why do I find it tiresome that Albanians are made to look blameless?
Because they are not. They were described as terrorists long before they were described as freedom fighters.
And the actions undertaken by Kosovar Albanians within Macedonia during 2001 shows me that they seek something quite different from human rights.

NATO won the war for its masters (mainly to Americans and partly to their European allies). It's a matter of fact, that they achieved all they want: put under control all Kosova and by doing that, they could create an American military base in the midst of Balkans.

Whoever NATO won it for, the Albanians were given Kosovo on a platter. Are you complaining that it is mortgaged to the USA now or would you have preferred to remain a minority in Serbia? I see no reason to play with words over this issue, it is more than clear enough who gained.

I am not sure it was just about a military base, the USA was all over Macedonia by then and has the same thing going on there.

[Soldier of Macedon]

I agree with that.

In what sort of manner and to what extent?

If you are talking about allowing them to have signage in their own language (accompanied by Macedonian) for private businesses or state-sponsored organisations, financial support from the government to preserve their culture, 'airtime' on radio and TV, freedom to publish newspapers, etc, in proportion to their size as a minority, I have no issues with that.

My issue is with Albanian as a language in our parliament, in our main airport, on our official goverment and road signage, etc. Irrespective of their proportion in numbers as a minority in Macedonia, they should never be granted this.

The members of the army, police, government officials, etc, should follow the civic model and consist of those most capable for the job who support Macedonia's interest, like in any other country.

[Epirot]

You're dancing around the inescapable fact - NATO actions beat the Serbs and laid down the foundations for an independent state of Kosovo. The importance of the questionable limit of that 'independence' (pertinent to this discussion) pales in comparison where it concerns the fact that Kosovo is in the hands of Albanians now, and not Serbs. Would you rather NATO not have come to Kosovo and have it remain under Serbian control?

Give it a break! NATO's entrance in Kosova was just a replacement of old aggressors with new ones. I highly suscpet your conviction that Kosova would have remain still under Serbian control if NATO did not intervene. Everyone knows pretty well that Serbia's military troops were quite demoralized from long wars. So nothing can stop the willing of a people to free themselves from foreign jokes!

Why do you believe and maintain such a view?

Quite simple. Because all of our neighbors are wolfs who waits to catch their prey. You know pretty well that both Albania and Macedonia were territorially partitioned by Serbia (in north), Bulgaria (in east) and Greece (at south). A strong Albania undoubtedly weak the expansionist attitudes of Serbia and Greece. This goes also for Macedonia. A strong Macedonia weak Bulgarian appetite to expand in west.

We intend to change that perception and raise the awareness of Macedonians. It is consistent with the aims of the Macedonian Cause.

Yes and I strongly support it. But what awe me the most is the fact that Anti-Albanian stance is taking place in every corner of your discourse. This cannot be said for the Bulgarians or Greeks. Why is that?

Don't make it sound like I am referring to something that happened 500 years ago, because ethnic Albanian extremists destabilised Macedonia only about 9-10 years ago. This 'clash' was the most recent episode, and it's unfortunate effects are still there today. This needs to be changed.

You still persist in calling Albanian demands for more rights a form of extremism! Have you ever ask from yourself to comprehend a simple question: if these demands were 'extreme' or 'special privileges' why they were accepted not even by your side, but by all western factors involved in solving of the conflict. I know what you will say: Macedonian side was imposed to do that because NATO did support 'Albanian extremists'. I haven't heard any Macedonian politician (who signed the agreement) that they were forced to put their signatures in document.
You always blame Albanian 'extremism' for causing the conflict. But if Albanians represent a corner of 'extremism', then tell me who is in the contrary corner of 'extremism'? Nobody wants the war. So the people who revolted for some basic rights weren't inspired either by love for war or anything else. They simply sought to be equal in Macedonia. The equality of its citizens was guaranteed in its constitution but in reality equality was non-existent.

...sold out the sovereignty of Macedonia.

Now you are the one in this discussion who is either ill-informed or simply don't have a clue what is talking about. With the Ohrid Agreement wasn't sold out the sovereignty of Macedonia. When this document was signed Albanians acknowledge Macedonia and its sovereignty.
But can you find out just one document, paper or political analysis outside Macedonia to assert that Macedonia's sovereignty was sold out?

Macedonia is Macedonia, so the only official language should be Macedonian. Those rights (along with the rest) are treasonous, irrespective of the proportion of Albanians which was propped up by people from Kosovo.

You were asked more than one time to bring out just one solid proof from any European source to confirm your freak claim that the proportion of Albanians in Macedonia was propped up by people from Kosovo. So I consider your claim as crap unless you find any document to back up your claim!!!

Your size as a minority should not automatically allow you any privilege, every Macedonian citizen should have equal rights, but Macedonian culture should remain prevalent on an official level.

You're totally out! Because you obviously know neither the "old" constitution of Macedonia nor new one. I'll cite a paragraph from the "old" constitution:

Article 7

The Macedonian language, written using its Cyrillic alphabet, is
the official language in the Republic of Macedonia.
In the units of local self-government where the majority of the
inhabitants belong to a nationality, in addition to the
Macedonian language and Cyrillic alphabet, their language and
alphabet are also in official use, in a manner determined by law.
In the units of local self-government where there is a
considerable number of inhabitants belonging to a nationality,
their language and alphabet are also in official use, in addition
to the Macedonian language and Cyrillic alphabet, under
conditions and in a manner determined by law.

So, what's wrong with the making of Albanian as an official language (in addition with Macedonian) into western part of Macedonia, when they make up the majority? When Albanian became as official language it did'nt reject Macedonian from its official status, did it?

Give me examples from states in Europe like a Germany, France, Italy, Croatia, Poland, etc, because Macedonia is not Bosnia or Belgium.

Hmm what's about Switzerland?

Switzerland lies at the crossroads of several major European cultures that have heavily influenced the country's languages and culture. Switzerland has four official languages: German (63.7% total population share, with foreign residents; 72.5% of residents with Swiss citizenship, in 2000) in the north, east and center of the country; French (20.4%; 21.0%) to the west; Italian (6.5%; 4.3%) in the south.[116] Romansh, a Romance language spoken locally by a small minority (0.5%; 0.6%) in the southeastern trilingual canton of Graubünden, is designated by the Federal Constitution as a national language along with German, French and Italian (Article 4 of the Constitution), and as official language if the authorities communicate with persons of Romansh language (Article 70), but federal laws and other official acts do not need to be decreed in this language. The federal government is obliged to communicate in the official languages, and in the federal parliament simultaneous translation is provided from and into German, French and Italian.[117]

French speaking people doesn't constitute more than 20% of general population but still their language has the official status in addition with Italian (approximately 6%) and Romansh (no more than 0.6%)? What do you suggest to the Swish authorities? Should they scrap the constitution by rejecting official status of French, Italian and Romansh? Or should they provide German as the only official language within the country instead? Or should German culture prevails over other cultures?

[Louis Riel]

Fighting for human rights?As if taking a human life were the way to do that.

[fyrOM]

There was a commonly agreed principle between all the countries in the world; "No country can interfere another country`s internal issues". This principle has been set by the rules of UN and all other international organization.

I said "there was" because after the intervention to Kosovo, this principle has been abandoned by great powers. Now, their new motto is "Human values are above everything, including state affairs". So, western world used and wasted all possible pretenses in their former interventions and i believe that they created a new pretense for interfering to the problems of the countries. They say that if certain minority feels like they suffer in their country and if these people calls for help then western world thinks that this is enough reason for them to start a military campaign to supposedly save them. You can guess that how easily they can manipulate certain groups in any country they want and make them call for help.

Ofc western world will choose whoever they like. For example, there are massive protestations in Bahrain for a while but shiite people(pro-Iran) are majority in there and they are being governed by the sunni minority since WW-1. This sunni ruling minority are working with wahhabis in Saudi Arabia aka most loyal dogs of great powers. Great powers didn't even wait for a day for bombing Libya but do you think they will ever try to save pro-Iran shiites in Bahrain by bombing wahabbis?? Let alone doing that, they let wahabbi army of Saudi Arabia to enter Bahrain to kill more shiite protesters with tanks and helicopters;







If you wanna see what kind of "accidents" has been caused by the wahabbi army of Saudis, then you can see here. These are extremely disturbing pictures, i warn you;

http://mathaba.net/news/?x=626250

http://www.4shared.com/account/dir/ApPcImKh/sharing.html

So, i believe Libya wont be the last country for great powers intervention under this new concept/motto. This new pretense of them is very dangerous for every country in the world. Can we say that they would never claim that Albanians are suffering in Macedonia and do the same? Or Kurds suffering in Turkey and try to intervene?? Since they have their new "human rights" card to play if someone objects. So, we can sit and watch from tv, then expect that US, French bombs would supposedly save people.

Onur you always show you give your posts thought before posting.

I am only posting this, in a limited capacity, to thank Onur for providing a reasonable description (hopefully Vangelovski and others can understand) of what I have termed in the past, "RELATIVE RIGHTS" just so they stop crying ,"We don't understand - you must be crazy".

Actions to some people is "PROTECTION" and to others "ACCIDENTS" and the West will create any pretense to invade a country if the FEELS like it while ALLAYS maintaining they are right in still respecting ALL international laws - so Your WE HAVE RIGHTS, THERE ARE LAWS IN REALITY MEAN NOTHING.

If the west want to invade a country, they will find any excuse, and just do it - your Rights mean Nothing!!, the only thing that really stops the west from invading a country is how strong/dangerous a country is or is their (the country) support needed for something else or are they already a willing puppet or if a country has strong support from others or can shame the west by showing the country has behaved more than reasonable.

See guys, other people know these things/get it - but then maybe they don't have an agenda to pretend they don't understand.

PS. I'm Not really here. I said Sayonara!

[Risto the Great]

fyrOM, I understand now. Macedonians have rights, they just need to ask around first to make sure they suit the agenda of other nations that seek to destroy it.

Yeah, read the above sentence 100 times before responding.

For something new, try being Pro-Macedonian instead of a Macedonian-Pro.

[Big Bad Sven]

Officially Albanians of Macedonia acknowledge sovereignty of Macedonia and accept Macedonia as their state. Is that a disgraceful and treacherous act? All western powers are interested in a solid and united Macedonia. So your fear that Macedonia is going to be divided is far away from reality. Albanian political representers express their willing for a co-existence with the Macedonians. I do not see any separation tendency!

How can you say that Albanians in Macedonia are not a threat to the Macedonian people and nation, or that they “respect” the Macedonian nation or people?

Why don’t you look at the albanization of Macedonia thread and just see how much Albanians in Macedonia “respect” the country or people? Remember that story about the Albanian soldiers in the Macedonian army and the Albanian flag… lol

If you weren’t so biased you would see that Albanians in Macedonia don’t want anything to do with Macedonia and and the Macedonians. You people are the problem, you people are the ones that don’t want to integrate with Macedonians and be proud citizens of Macedonia.

I don’t know if its just plain old gheg tribal weirdness to be anti-social and distant from non-ghegs or just Albanian nationalism and chauvinism running rampant because of piss weak Macedonian mentality letting the Albanians to do what the hell they want.

Do you remember what happened during the birth of the republic of Macedonia? Ghegs didn’t participate in the reffrendum for a independent Macedonia from Yugoslavia and instead had a reffrendum to break away from Macedonia and create “Illyrda”:

The Albanians boycotted the referendum on the independence of Macedonia held
on 8 September 1991 on the instigation of the Albanian party, the Party for
Democratic Prosperity (PDP), and launched a campaign against the new constitution
of Macedonia, which considered Macedonia to be the national state of the Macedo-nians. They boycotted the census of 1991 and claimed that they numbered between
40% and 50% of the total population of Macedonia. On 11 December 1992 a
referendum was held among the Albanians on the creation of an autonomous sector
in the Albanian-inhabited parts of Western Macedonia under the name “Illyridia.”
Though the majority of the Albanians voted in favor of autonomy the referendum
was declared illegal by the Macedonian authorities and brought about no result.

http://freewebs.com/ovsiste/ALBANIAN%20IDENTITY.pdf

Even before macedonia’s independence the ghegs have shown no desire to be part of a Macedonian nation and contribute to its prosperity.


What about albanians in macedonia not wanting to learn the macedonian language? How is that respecting macedonia??
YouTube - Albanians living in Macedonia refuse to learn the Macedonian language



It’s a real shame the shiptars cant be like the turks, vlach or roma who are good honest citizens in Macedonia and because of their involvement in Macedonia they add a new, special and unique touch to the republic of Macedonia. Unlike the anti-social ghegs who hide behind their fortresses that are covered in Albanian flags and being so stubborn that they refuse to have nothing to do with non-albanians.

You guys are just as bad as the serbs, greeks and bulgars.

[Big Bad Sven]

If we are talking about large ethnic groups and their increased rights because of their larger numbers then we have to bring up the Russians in the baltics

25.5% of Estonia’s population is Russian.
27.4% of Latvia’s population is Russian
Both Estonia and Latvia have a reasonable Belorusian population as well, and lets be honest here, belorussians are pretty much Russians. So the figure of Russians increases in those countries a bit more.

Amazingly the official language of Estonia is Estonian, and the official language of Latvia is Latvian. The Russian minority is much more larger then the Albanian ghehg minority in Macedonia yet Russian is not a official language.

Ironically the Russian minority has nothing when it comes to “human rights” in the baltics, they can only dream to have the same level of rights as the spoilt and care free shiptars.

If Europe really cared about human rights for everyone in Europe, then every country in Europe should have the same situation as Macedonia. This just shows that the NATO/EU intervention and pressure on Macedonia, and the shiptar uprising in 2001 was a complete farce and was not about “human rights” but for something more sinister.
I believe the shiptars true goal was submission and defeat of the Macedonians and thus control of their populated area’s, and the west wanted control of Macedonia as well and also to transform Macedonia into some quasi-multi ethnic country in the Balkans.

I hate to sound like im painting a negative picture here, but I just keep seeing similarities between the (once) large german minority in the Czech republic and the Albanian minority in Macedonia. Both minorities had absolutely no interest in being governed and in a country that is not theirs.

[Big Bad Sven]

LOL at kosovo becoming interdependent with out the help of NATO/US

What kind of dream world do you live in

If the macedonian army surrounded and (nearly) destroyed the ghegs in a matter of hours, just imagine how easy it would have been for the serbian army to do so with out foreign meddling

A very informative german documentary about the shame that was the kosovo war:

It Began With a Lie - Part 1
YouTube - It Began With a Lie - Part 1


There are a few more other parts to this documentary, they are all available from youtube as well

[Big Bad Sven]

You were asked more than one time to bring out just one solid proof from any European source to confirm your freak claim that the proportion of Albanians in Macedonia was propped up by people from Kosovo. So I consider your claim as crap unless you find any document to back up your claim!!!

Everyone in macedonia knows the corrupt SDSM party gave a lot of the refugees macedonian citizenship in order for them to vote for SDSM. Apparently 50,000 kosovo albanians remained in macedonia to this day.

But albanians have always been settlers in macedonia, a new element if you will.

I used to hear stories from my grand parents when i was young that when they worked in Skopje that Tito allowed a lot of albanians from albania to come to macedonia and work. I didnt quite believe this until i saw the czech documentary "stolen kosovo" on youtube a few days ago. The documentary states that Tito invited albanians from albania to work and live in kosovo, to help with the rapid industrialization of yugoslavia after WW2.

My opinion is that the same would have happened in macedonia, remember that after WW2 Skopje was one of fastest developing cities in yugoslavia. It surpassed Ljubljana and was catching up to Zagreb.

[Soldier of Macedon]

NATO's entrance in Kosova was just a replacement of old aggressors with new ones.

Answer the question I posed before - would you rather NATO not come at all?

A strong Albania undoubtedly weak the expansionist attitudes of Serbia and Greece. This goes also for Macedonia. A strong Macedonia weak Bulgarian appetite to expand in west.

I agree, but I guess that can apply to all countries in the Balkans. That is why each of the cultures of the majorities should remain prevalent in each state. Albanians are encroaching on Macedonian prelavence in Macedonia, this is not in line with the principle above.

Yes and I strongly support it. But what awe me the most is the fact that Anti-Albanian stance is taking place in every corner of your discourse. This cannot be said for the Bulgarians or Greeks. Why is that?

If you strongly support it, then support the same principles as you would in Albania; the culture and language of the majority in the state needs to remain prevalent. Can you imagine a meeting of parliamentaries in the US or Germany where some individuals are always speaking Spanish or Turkish while the rest of the participants are listening to an interpretation of a foreign language through ear-phones about the government affairs of their own country? I can't. It would not be accepted, period. And your suggestion that there is an anti-Albanian 'stance' of heavy bias is misguided, as we write about our relations (good or bad) with all of our neighbours.

You still persist in calling Albanian demands for more rights a form of extremism!

What rights did you not have that were not afforded to ALL of Macedonia's minorities?

I haven't heard any Macedonian politician (who signed the agreement) that they were forced to put their signatures in document.

You're not making any sense. Even the traitors that capitulated and signed it were not for such an agreement that would give away Macedonia's sovereignty initially, this is why there was armed conflict. We weren't losing, so there was no problem on that end. So why do you think they signed? Furthermore, the actions of the politicians were not the wishes of the Macedonian people, don't refer to those treacherous individuals as our 'side'.

They simply sought to be equal in Macedonia. The equality of its citizens was guaranteed in its constitution but in reality equality was non-existent.

How were Macedonia's minorities not 'equal' to the Macedonian majority? No other minorities felt compelled to take up arms against the state to seek any greater 'rights'. Some on your 'side' showed how civilised they were.

With the Ohrid Agreement wasn't sold out the sovereignty of Macedonia. When this document was signed Albanians acknowledge Macedonia and its sovereignty.

Where do they acknowledge the sovereignty of Macedonia as Macedonian? Do you even know what sovereignty means?

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/557065/sovereignty

Sovereignty, in political theory, the ultimate overseer, or authority, in the decision-making process of the state and in the maintenance of order.

But can you find out just one document, paper or political analysis outside Macedonia to assert that Macedonia's sovereignty was sold out?

The Framework Agreement degraded Macedonian sovereignty in Macedonia to a 'shared' authority with a minority group who took up arms against the state. Don't waste my time with semantics, the truth can't be denied.

You were asked more than one time to bring out just one solid proof from any European source to confirm your freak claim that the proportion of Albanians in Macedonia was propped up by people from Kosovo.

Thousands of citizens from Kosovo fled to Macedonia and stayed, and that is a fact. You can find your own sources for that, easily. And your naivety regarding illegal voting in ethnic Albanian areas is not suprising, perhaps it's even deliberate because you don't want to believe the obvious.

The Macedonian language, written using its Cyrillic alphabet, is the official language in the Republic of Macedonia.

That is no longer the case, as now Albanian is 'official' too. That should never have happened, it is a direct assault on Macedonian sovereignty.

In the units of local self-government where the majority of the inhabitants belong to a nationality, in addition to the Macedonian language and Cyrillic alphabet, their language and alphabet are also in official use, in a manner determined by law.

That law has now been changed. Was that the 'right' that gave them the right of taking up arms against the state? What century do we live in? Who are you trying to defend?

So, what's wrong with the making of Albanian as an official language (in addition with Macedonian) into western part of Macedonia, when they make up the majority? When Albanian became as official language it did'nt reject Macedonian from its official status, did it?

Because the country is Macedonia, and Macedonian should remain the official language. Just like Albania, Greece, Serbia and Bulgaria. I don't want to keep going around in circles with you on this point. That is not acceptable to us, it is not acceptable to Albanians in Albania.

Hmm what's about Switzerland?

As Switzerland differs little from Bosnia and Belgium I didn't think it was necessary to cite a third example. Macedonia is none of these.

[Epirot]

How can you say that Albanians in Macedonia are not a threat to the Macedonian people and nation, or that they “respect” the Macedonian nation or people?

It seem obvious that you did not follow my explanations given in my posts. It's quite tiresome to repeat my earlier posts.
Albanians of Macedonia through their political parties do acknowledge Macedonia as their state and express more than one time their desire to be fully integrated in Macedonia, which they hope it will be integrated in EU and NATO.

Why don’t you look at the albanization of Macedonia thread and just see how much Albanians in Macedonia “respect” the country or people?

Albanization? How do you invent such a term? Do tell me: how many Macedonians are forced to become Albanians, to bear Albanian names, to hide their nationality, etc?

I don’t know if its just plain old gheg tribal weirdness to be anti-social and distant from non-ghegs or just Albanian nationalism and chauvinism running rampant because of piss weak Macedonian mentality letting the Albanians to do what the hell they want.

Calm down buddy! I do not know why you're being that rude against 'Ghegs'? It doesn't make any sense to divide Albanians into 'Ghegs' and 'Tosks'. Why do you think that 'Ghegs' are anti-social? Let for the sake of truth accept your theory of 'Gheg/Tosks' polarization: numerically "Ghegs" outnumber 'Tosks' so the majority of Albanians are 'Ghegs'. Would you assume that Albanians in general are 'anti-social'?
It's really boring to keep further discussion about that matter, because you clearly do not have a clue about Albanians, their culture, history, tradition, etc. I can find out countless evidences of European travelers stressing out the unique hospitality of the Albanians.

Do you remember what happened during the birth of the republic of Macedonia? Ghegs didn’t participate in the reffrendum for a independent Macedonia from Yugoslavia and instead had a reffrendum to break away from Macedonia and create “Illyrda”:

Give it a break! Now you even don't know what are you speaking about. It's true that Albanians held a referendum but they didn't demand to break away from Macedonia. As far as I know, their referendum aimed a sort of autonomy within Macedonia. Even your cited source says the opposite of yours.

...the majority of the Albanians voted in favor of autonomy the referendum

You guys are just as bad as the serbs, greeks and bulgars

Now you're loosing your mind!

[Epirot]

Everyone in macedonia knows the corrupt SDSM party gave a lot of the refugees macedonian citizenship in order for them to vote for SDSM. Apparently 50,000 kosovo albanians remained in macedonia to this day

Well...let say that more than 200.000 Kosova Albanians remained in Macedonia. Any European evidence to back up that? I find this very interesting: only a category of you guys have special abilities to notice through your PC what is happening in Macedonia. Ironically enough, all European 'monitors', foreign ambassadors in Macedonia are either blind or ignorant to see the new waves of Albanians from Kosova settling in Macedonia....

But albanians have always been settlers in macedonia, a new element if you will.

That's cheating! We've already talked whether Albanians are descendants of Illyrians or not. If the Illyrian origin of todays Albanians is prevailing opinion among modern scholarship, then your fragile hypothesis of Albanians as 'settlers' in Macedonia doesn't hold any water.

I used to hear stories from my grand parents when i was young that when they worked in Skopje that Tito allowed a lot of albanians from albania to come to macedonia and work. I didnt quite believe this until i saw the czech documentary "stolen kosovo" on youtube a few days ago. The documentary states that Tito invited albanians from albania to work and live in kosovo, to help with the rapid industrialization of yugoslavia after WW2.

Totally crap! There was no emigration from Albania to Yugoslavia during communist regimes. I challenge you to find out just one evidence to support your claim!? You know that after 1948, Enver Hoxha (the communist leader of Albania) breakdown the relations with Yugoslavs...so I'm pretty amazed how the f*** Tito received people from a hostile country?

[Soldier of Macedon]

Albanization? How do you invent such a term? Do tell me: how many Macedonians are forced to become Albanians, to bear Albanian names, to hide their nationality, etc?

Muslim Macedonians have been forced or 'coerced' to. And 'Albanianisation' can also refer to several other things such as street signs in Albanian, statues of extremists, Albanian state flags all over buildings, etc.

If the Illyrian origin of todays Albanians is prevailing opinion among modern scholarship, then your fragile hypothesis of Albanians as 'settlers' in Macedonia doesn't hold any water.

No need to open up any more fronts in this regard, if you need reminding just go back to the thread you created.