Political Scandals and Judiciary Corruption in Macedonia

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  • Gocka
    Senior Member
    • Dec 2012
    • 2306

    Who do you think sent the agitators? Some say SDSM, some say western agents? I say just run of the mill idiots who seem to show up to every protest everywhere in the world.

    Originally posted by ramo View Post
    From my observations, the protests become violent after a group of protesters (probably provocateurs ) started using metal sticks and other stuff. It happened maybe 2 hours later in the protest, not when the police started pushing Neskovski mother and brother - speaking about the tuesday evening. Yesterday the protests were peaceful and there were also groups for provoking incidents but they were repelled by the mass that protested.

    Julie
    Well we already have some interviews by the British, German, Dutch and American representatives. All of them said that it is important who wiretapped but also that there should be at least investigation for the things said in the recordings which imply massive corruption, breaking of the laws and tampering elections by using state money and resources and state servants and institutions. And we see no signs of such investigation starting not even in our dreams.

    About the phone tapping. There is still not enough evidence who conducted the tapping, except for some listings Zaev presented on press conference with code names in spreadsheets and one statement he gave that there are employees in the macedonian secret service that escaped from the country which will testify that the government was wiretapping but he need guarantee for their lives if they are about to testify in front of Macedonian courts . This is one theory from the opposition and few theories which the government spread depending of the situation. One of them is that foreign services did this, others say people close to Zaev did this and so on. No matter who did this, it happened for few years and not a single man said that he is morally responsible for the devastated security system not to mention that nobody is taking responsibility and resignation. The brainwashing media often mention that one officer in the secret service admitted he did the wiretapping and is convicted to prison but so far they did not said who he wiretapped for. This leads to many speculations. I think that if such foreign service existed they would have told by now million times. The court process is ongoing so we should wait and see what is the official position on this although i do not believe the institutions at all. For the average citizen this side - who wiretapped - is covered by this ongoing court process. The other side - what was/is happening in the society is not covered and there are no signs that this will be solved by the institutions. And this is a very very big problem when you know they will do nothing to regain the trust by enforcing the laws.

    Dragan


    This is excerpt from the law about the work of the police.



    Article 36 from this law says: The police officer is obliged to enforce the orders from stav 1 (don't know the english word and refers to the authorisation the police has) except if this fulfillment (of the orders) is criminal act.

    As you probably know Zaev announced massive protests on May 17 and he announcet them before this protests about Neshkovski happened. There are already speculations on facebook and twitter allegedly from vmro members that the rulling party is preparing for this and is also planning to use army dressed as police officers and private security members that will keep the government in case the police decides to disobey their orders and turns on the protesters side. This is only a speculations maybe to put fear in the people and not go on the protest but who knows.

    Comment

    • Volokin
      Member
      • Apr 2014
      • 278

      Macedonia protesters return to streets after clashes

      Several thousand mostly young people rallied in Skopje for a second consecutive day against alleged police brutality, demanding the resignation of Interior Minister Gordana Jankuloska.

      The protesters gathered in front of the Macedonian parliament on Wednesday evening after clashes with riot police the previous day, amid simmering political tensions between the government and opposition sparked by the release of a series of wiretapped recordings allegedly implicating top officials in serious wrongdoings.

      There was a heavy security presence after Tuesday’s clashes, during which police said 38 police officers and one protester were injured and 30 people arrested. Police blocked all the streets near the government building, where the rally was initially meant to be held on Wednesday.

      The protesters, mainly aged between 20 and 30, called for the resignation of Interior Minister Gordana Jankuloska, who they consider responsible for trying to cover up the authorities’ responsibility for murder of a young man, Martin Neskoski, who was killed by a policeman on June 6, 2011.

      "We are gathered here in large numbers, we will get together again tomorrow and every day until we see command responsibility for the killing of Martin,” said the dead man’s brother, Aleksandar Neskoski.

      Some of the protesters brought flowers and tried to give them to police officers, while shouting slogans like “You should protect us”, “Put your shields down”, and “No justice, no peace”.

      The protests continued for more than five hours and remained relatively calm, even though members of sports fan groups threw bottles at police officers. Around 20 young women tried to stop them, making a human shield in front of the police cordon to prevent more serious clashes erupting.

      “Provocateurs, go home,” the young women shouted at the bottle-throwing fans.

      The protest ended around 11 pm local time, but the heavy police presence remained, particularly in front of the government building where special units were reinforced with water cannons and armoured vehicles.

      The previous protest on Tuesday began after the opposition Social Democrats aired alleged wiretapped telephone recordings of Interior Minister Jankuloska, Prime Minister Nikola Gruevski and other top officials, which suggested they plotted to cover up official responsibility for the high-profile murder of Neskoski.

      Police brought in armoured vehicles and water cannon as they attempted to disperse the protesters, some of whom had thrown eggs and apples at the government building. During the offensive, and later in the night, police arrested dozens of protesters in central Skopje.

      A young ruling party sympathiser, Neskoski was beaten to death on the night that the Gruevski's ruling VMRO DPMNE celebrated its election victory on June 6, 2011. The killing, attributed to a police officer who later was convicted, sparked protests against alleged police brutality that lasted for two months.

      For nearly two days, the police denied the incident had happened but then changed their story, confirming the victim’s identity and claiming they had the murder suspect in custody - Igor Spasov, a member of a special police unit called the Tigers.

      Officials insisted that Spasov was not on duty at the time and so they were not responsible for the murder. But the tapes released by the opposition on Tuesday suggested that there was a plot to pin the murder on the policemen alone and avoid responsibility falling on higher officials.

      The opposition Social Democrats started releasing wiretapped tapes in February, accusing PM Gruevski and his cousin, secret police chief Mijalkov, of orchestrating the illegal surveillance of over 20,000 people over several years, including journalists, judges, prosecutors, mayors and even government ministers.

      As the political crisis in the country heated up, the Social Democrats announced they would launch mass demonstrations on May 17 aimed at ousting Gruevski’s government. However, anger sparked by the revelations about the Neskoski killing caused young protesters including members of the Student Plenum and NGO activists to take to the streets earlier.


      Resistance to government spreading in Macedonia
      Source: Tanjug

      SKOPJE -- The second day of civil protests against the Macedonian government in Skopje was more massive and better organized that the previous day.

      Because of strong police forces it did not take place in front of the Macedonian government, but outside the parliament.

      Citizens started protests on Tuesday night after most influential opposition party Social Democratic Alliance of Macedonia revealed that Martin Neshkovski was beaten to death by a policeman on duty, and accused the ruling party and the prime minister of covering up the case.

      Some media today report that the police was much better prepared for protesters last night, and that demonstrators acted wisely and decided that instead of protesting in front of the government do so in front of the parliament.

      This is said to have avoided the government's intentions to use police brutality to suppress the protest and blame the protesters for the violence.

      There were also protests in Bitola and Prilep on Wednesday evening.

      The organizers learned their lesson from the first day and did not allow provocateurs, obviously planted by the government, to provoke a brutal police action.

      So the provocateurs were left to try to provoke riioting with sporadic actions in which they failed.

      The opposition said it will not give up and will spread the protests throughout Macedonia. Protests are scheduled for today in Skopje and Strumica, and tomorrow in Kavadarci and Kumanovo.


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      My question now is who are the people protesting?

      Are they young SDSM supporters?
      Are they the unaligned public who are now against the Gruevski regime?
      Are they former DPMNE voters who have switched sides?
      Are they disenfranchised youth?

      Or is it a mix of them all?

      We have seen recent protests at the high school and university level against certain government decisions regarding education. Are these youth now being swayed towards SDSM as a result of their dislike for the ruling party's actions?

      These questions are important for the future political scene of Macedonia.

      It seems now, and this month of protests will tell more, that SDSM is growing in power and support, and DPMNE is backed into a difficult situation.

      I have a strong feeling that SDSM will profit massively from these events.

      Comment

      • DedoAleko
        Member
        • Jun 2009
        • 969

        Originally posted by Volokin View Post

        My question now is who are the people protesting?

        Are they young SDSM supporters?
        Are they the unaligned public who are now against the Gruevski regime?
        Are they former DPMNE voters who have switched sides?
        Are they disenfranchised youth?

        Or is it a mix of them all?...
        Volokin maybe this might help.

        Ex SDSM official spills it: Violent Rabotnicki Fans are Hired to Attack Police

        Mihail Mladenovski, who recently quit the SDSM spelled out who is behind the protest in an TV interview with Sitel 3.

        - "Sasha Bogdanovic, prominent SDSM member and the Director of Centar's Parking facility is collaborating with SDSM's leadership (Zaev, Sekerinska) to organize the protests with the aim to provoke the police. As a result we have seen SDSM activists brutally attacking the police with tiles, rocks, bottles and metal bats".

        "Bogdanovic hand picked the most violent Rabotnicki fans for this task, they are all compensated for their efforts", stated Mladenovski for Sitel 3.

        "This is all well organized, apart from money, these hooligans are promised high ranking jobs when SDSM gets to power", says Mladenovski.

        izvor: http://macedoniaonline.eu/content/view/27353/1/

        video: 38 injured policemen in the violent protests
        Last edited by DedoAleko; 05-07-2015, 11:01 AM.

        Comment

        • ramo
          Member
          • Dec 2011
          • 117

          Originally posted by DedoAleko View Post
          Volokin maybe this might help.

          Ex SDSM official spills it: Violent Rabotnicki Fans are Hired to Attack Police

          Mihail Mladenovski, who recently quit the SDSM spelled out who is behind the protest in an TV interview with Sitel 3.

          - "Sasha Bogdanovic, prominent SDSM member and the Director of Centar's Parking facility is collaborating with SDSM's leadership (Zaev, Sekerinska) to organize the protests with the aim to provoke the police. As a result we have seen SDSM activists brutally attacking the police with tiles, rocks, bottles and metal bats".

          "Bogdanovic hand picked the most violent Rabotnicki fans for this task, they are all compensated for their efforts", stated Mladenovski for Sitel 3.

          "This is all well organized, apart from money, these hooligans are promised high ranking jobs when SDSM gets to power", says Mladenovski.

          izvor: http://macedoniaonline.eu/content/view/27353/1/

          video: 38 injured policemen in the violent protests
          Hahaha. Slander. Not a single proof. The same thing like the "news" that general Angelov is cooperating with islamic fundamentalists. This kind of propaganda is served all the time on national TV stations. Would you be kind and present a single argument or fact to support this statement given fore sole propaganda purpose. This is the magic circle. One random guy tells invented story, tv station like Shitel presents it and 30 internet media portals spread the "news". Sorry to dissapoint you but the people you see commenting on facebook and pretending this to be big "discovery" know it is a lie. They are commenting from the party offices. Many countries have this kind of internet trolls USA, Russia, China, etc. but the Macedonian trolls are joke.

          Gocka
          Who do you think sent the agitators? Some say SDSM, some say western agents? I say just run of the mill idiots who seem to show up to every protest everywhere in the world.
          I cant guess who sent them there is not enough info. I read that yesterday some guys showed with masks and part of the mob tried to take off their masks and took photos of them and they moved away. I don't think sdsm or vmro will gain from these more violent protesters, maybe the question we should ask is who is about to lose more. The only thing that is clear that it was one of the few spontaneous gatherings happened in the republic, it happened only 1-2 hours after the press conference after the brother of the boy killed asked for protest, justice and resignations of officials short after the press conference.

          My question now is who are the people protesting?
          Volokin, my best guess will be mix of all you mentioned. I would like to add the same people that protested for days after the tragic accident few years ago. And the high schools protesters protest on another place in front of the ministry of education officially they do not took part in those protests although it is highly likely part of them did.
          Last edited by ramo; 05-07-2015, 11:35 AM.

          Comment

          • Gocka
            Senior Member
            • Dec 2012
            • 2306

            Sadly its common practice for the opposition of a protest to send agitators to discredit the protesters. It happens everywhere. Once you portray protesters as an angry mob, the masses looses respect and interest in what ever they are protesting about.

            In this case no one knows, its could be SDSM trying to provoke a heavy police response so they can bolster their argument that Gruevski is a dictator.

            On the other hand it could also be DMPNE trying to discredit the protests and turn them into a pro SDSM angry mob.

            Also possible is that they are hired by an outside agitator who has something to gain be causing panic and chaos.

            Luckily the violence was very sparse and both police and even mass protesters were able to shut it down quickly.

            There is a legitimate movement here I think the younger generations aren't as embarrassed as the older ones to go out there and protest. Hopefully it continues and something positive comes from it.

            Also may I note that posting anything that originates from SITEL is useless since its been proven without a doubt that they act at least at times as a DPMNE mouth piece. Many recordings mention direction connection with Latas and SITEL.

            Comment

            • DedoAleko
              Member
              • Jun 2009
              • 969

              Originally posted by ramo View Post
              Hahaha. Slander. Not a single proof. The same thing like the "news" that general Angelov is cooperating with islamic fundamentalists. This kind of propaganda is served all the time on national TV stations. Would you be kind and present a single argument or fact to support this statement given fore sole propaganda purpose. This is the magic circle. One random guy tells invented story, tv station like Shitel presents it and 30 internet media portals spread the "news". Sorry to dissapoint you but the people you see commenting on facebook and pretending this to be big "discovery" know it is a lie. They are commenting from the party offices. Many countries have this kind of internet trolls USA, Russia, China, etc. but the Macedonian trolls are joke.
              I don't know if what this guy claims is propaganda or not, but different sources from Skopje mention seeing Rabotnicki’s fans involved in the protests.
              And what about zaev’s claims? Do we know for sure if what he claims is truth or propaganda ? I don’t think so.
              I don’t think we can tell if the recordings are 100% authentic and not manipulated! Not before relevant institutions and authorities examine them.
              And why would I trust zaev, a pardoned criminal?

              p.s. And again you people mention “general” Angelov (I put in commas because as far as I know,Angelov doesn’t have neither the necessary military education, nor the standard procedure was followed when he was ranked general). He is an installation. Google and read for who created “ Dostoinstvo” and about who Risto Gushterov is.
              Do your homework.

              p.p.s. I also don’t read anyone mentioning that the policeman that killed the kid in 2011, and who is the reason why these protests are about, got 14 years jail time.The maximum punishment!

              Comment

              • DraganOfStip
                Senior Member
                • Aug 2011
                • 1253

                Originally posted by Gocka View Post
                Also may I note that posting anything that originates from SITEL is useless since its been proven without a doubt that they act at least at times as a DPMNE mouth piece. Many recordings mention direction connection with Latas and SITEL.
                You can add to that list TV stations Alfa and Kanal5 and websites Kurir,Republika,Netpres... all of these media's owners are members/sympathizers of DPMNE.
                P.S.: The national broadcaster MRT is included in this group by default.
                ”A people that elect corrupt politicians, imposters, thieves and traitors are not victims... but accomplices”
                ― George Orwell

                Comment

                • ramo
                  Member
                  • Dec 2011
                  • 117

                  Originally posted by DedoAleko View Post
                  I don't know if what this guy claims is propaganda or not, but different sources from Skopje mention seeing Rabotnicki’s fans involved in the protests.
                  And what about zaev’s claims? Do we know for sure if what he claims is truth or propaganda ? I don’t think so.
                  I don’t think we can tell if the recordings are 100% authentic and not manipulated! Not before relevant institutions and authorities examine them.
                  And why would I trust zaev, a pardoned criminal?

                  p.s. And again you people mention “general” Angelov (I put in commas because as far as I know,Angelov doesn’t have neither the necessary military education, nor the standard procedure was followed when he was ranked general). He is an installation. Google and read for who created “ Dostoinstvo” and about who Risto Gushterov is.
                  Do your homework.

                  p.p.s. I also don’t read anyone mentioning that the policeman that killed the kid in 2011, and who is the reason why these protests are about, got 14 years jail time.The maximum punishment!
                  1. The minister of interior gave a public statement than the Ministry has the skills and equipment to make expertise on the recordings but they are not going to do it.

                  2. Many wiretapped reporters, businessman, politician, public servants etc. that were on the recordings confirmed the authenticity.

                  3. Gruevski for example in some occasions like yesterday said that the recordings about the reporter Mladenov show that vmro is not responsible for his death and he did not say anything about being tampered or manipulated.

                  4. The head of secret service said that he is pressing criminal suite against Zaev for making public the information about bugging equipment taken from Israel .

                  So all of them say the recordings are manipulated when it is OK for them. The first point i wrote is the most important.

                  What you say about Angelov i can tell you that i know Dostoinstvo from the very beginning. Gushterov became their candidate for only one elections and he was not member of Dostoinstvo and he did not create Dostoinstvo but the soldiers that took part in the armed conflict with UCK did. Your theories of conspiracy is ridiculous. You can not degrade Angelov who fought many battles against UCK and was severely wounded and it is rare that someone with injuries like him survive. I do not mind if you defend gruevski which gave amnesty to UCK war criminals who killed and tortured Macedonians, but spreading propaganda about Angelov is not going to pass. And the brother of the boy killed and the protesters are asking all people involved to be put on trial as the law says.
                  Last edited by ramo; 05-08-2015, 06:54 AM.

                  Comment

                  • Toska
                    Member
                    • Sep 2008
                    • 137

                    SDSM Activists Attack their Boss for Non Payment - We Are Not Causing Chaos for Free!
                    Friday, 08 May 2015


                    Macedonian Courts are not functioning, but it appears Karma works 24/7. The man who was pinpointed by an SDSM insider as the individual behind the few dozen SDSM hooligans who caused numerous incidents with police was roughed up by the same hooligans after he refused to pay for their 'services'.


                    That man is Sasha Bogdanovic, the Director of the Parking Facility in Centar, Skopje and a close collaborator of SDSM's leader Zoran Zaev and Centar's mayor Andrej Zernovski.


                    The leader of SDSM's youth Mihail Mladenovski in an interview on Tuesday stated Sasha Bogdanovic has hired SDSM activists helped by hooligans from FC Rabotnicki to attack police, destroy state and private property, in other words ... cause as much chaos as possible.


                    One of the leaders of the SDSM activists (M.D. 28) was fed up his group was not paid, so he met Sasha Bogdanovic near his home where with the help of two others roughed him up.


                    Shortly after the incident, police detained M.D. According to our source, Bogdanovic never paid the 200 euros promised to each SDSM activist.

                    Comment

                    • Dejan
                      Member
                      • Sep 2008
                      • 591

                      I'm thinking the next thing we might hear from SDSM is the Smilkovci incident. Does anyone know what's located at/around Smilkovci? Anything of government value? I have heard a few things but I can't label it anything other than hearsay (typical Macedonian conclusions I guess).

                      Again, I am not pro any party, they are both as bad as each other.
                      You want Macedonia? Come and take it from my blood!

                      A prosperous, independent and free Macedonia for Macedonians will be the ultimate revenge to our enemies.

                      Comment

                      • julie
                        Senior Member
                        • May 2009
                        • 3869

                        There are rumours on social networks that SDMS has some sort of findings on the Monstrum case.
                        Dejan, think its general consensus on the forum here that there is no fit political party in Macedonia to govern.

                        Transparency is needed, as is what I have been calling for, for infinity - political parties to govern as a coalition , in the best interests of Macedonians in Macedonia. Pigs will fly before that happens
                        "The moral revolution - the revolution of the mind, heart and soul of an enslaved people, is our greatest task."__________________Gotse Delchev

                        Comment

                        • ramo
                          Member
                          • Dec 2011
                          • 117

                          Soon you will see shit media internet portals and TV stations like this you posted how they speak of Zaev like saint and savior because all of them have no dignity and principles. Many of you will believe the stupidity they write about people like Zaev but we will be here to tell you that it is just propaganda.

                          Comment

                          • Soldier of Macedon
                            Senior Member
                            • Sep 2008
                            • 13675

                            Macedonia's prime minister accepts the resignation of two ministers and his head of intelligence amid a scandal over alleged phone-tapping.


                            Macedonia ministers resign amid phone-tapping scandal

                            13 May 2015

                            Macedonian Prime Minister Nikola Gruevski has accepted the resignation of two ministers and his intelligence head amid a surveillance scandal. Opposition leaders say intelligence chief Saso Mijalkov and Interior Minister Gordana Jankulovska led government attempts to control the press, judiciary and electoral officials by tapping their phones. The government denies the allegations. Clashes also erupted between ethnic Albanians and police at the weekend. Fourteen ethnic Albanians and eight police officers were killed in fighting that followed a police raid on an ethnic Albanian neighbourhood in the northern town of Kumanovo.

                            Conservative leader Mr Gruevski did not give a reason for the resignations of Interior Minister Ms Jankulovska, Transport Minister Mile Janakieski or intelligence chief Mr Mijalkov, who is also his cousin. Mr Mijalkov, in a resignation letter, said he hoped his departure would "help in overcoming the political crisis imposed by the opposition". Western diplomats say the government's failure to investigate the surveillance scandal casts "serious doubts" on the government's commitment to democratic values. Macedonia, which is a candidate for European Union membership, is facing increasing unrest. The opposition and government have accused each other of deliberately destabilising the country. Since February, opposition leader Zoran Zaev has been releasing leaked recordings, amid concerns about the government's apparently authoritarian leanings. Anti-government protests broke out last week after leaked conversations allegedly revealed that important details in a 2011 murder case had been covered up. Demonstrators say they will take to the streets on Sunday to demand the prime minister's resignation.
                            In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                            Comment

                            • Volokin
                              Member
                              • Apr 2014
                              • 278

                              Interesting. Is resigning indirectly admitting to their guilt?

                              Mijalkov, along with Stavreski and Gruevski was a member of that extended family that has appeared to exercise a level of illegal control of the Macedonian state.

                              Surely these changes can only be for the better....right?

                              Comment

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