Political Scandals and Judiciary Corruption in Macedonia

[Gocka]

There is no doubt that some inconsistencies and fraud take place during the voting process, this happens even in the USA. In the case of Macedonia, even with 0 manipulation VMRO by far more popular than SDSM, rightly or wrongly this is fact. VMRO would still win a general election, SDSM knows this, that is why they are trying to take over by subverting the voting process, because they know they can never win through voting.

Now this doesn't mean that VMRO should not be punished and that people should not go to jail for their crimes, but to think that some how dissolving the government and letting SDSM take power unelected is a solution is simply insane.

With every release of new "bombi" it is more and more evident that the recordings are definitely supplied by an outside conspirator. I for one would rather have a dictator in power, rather than handing over power to a traitor who has a debt to repay to a foreign accomplice.

Both parties need to be thrown in jail.

[ramo]

I'm not supporting DPMNE, but the opposition is no better.

Let's not forget they used the same tactics when their was a referendum organised against the Decentralization in Macedonia. SDSM came out and made sure it failed.

SDSM threatened people that they will lose their jobs if they voted against or even turned up to the polls.

In reality, both are the same shit.

I totally agree they used the same tactics. Actually they started these dirty stuff first. I gave my signature when the signatures were needed for referendum to be held. I was labelled as "vmrovec" then and advised not to vote at all. People were "friendly" advised not to vote. After the referendum for decentralization was voted to be held, they organized their whole machinery for it not to be successful. Not to vote against but not to go out and vote at all. So they succeeded with their and the albanian votes to make the referendum not successful. If the same number of people voted against the referendum would have been successfull and there would have been not artificially created albanian communities like Stuga, Kichevo and Chair (Chair is debatable). That's why they lost the next elections and can not stand up on their feet for almost 10 years now and people find it difficult to believe them.

Let's also not forget that the referendum for Kichevo was cancelled for few years because there was strong resistance from the population. The decision for decentralization came in power less than 2 years ago, 7 years after gruevski gained power. They had all the tools, elected parlament members and institutions in their hands to cancel it or postpone it indefinitely. But they kept quiet. Their supporters also.

But. The situation in the country now for 3-4 years at least is much worse. Now there is lot more stuff going on. Now there are actually no real media, nobody's voice can be heard. Ordinary people, reporters, intelectuals, doctors, scientists. Nobody shows their views on TV. Only on some internet portals. 90 percent of the national TV stations refuse to show at least few seconds from the wiretapped conversations making fools of the people. I know there are people not using internet and have not heard not a single word from these animals that lead the country now except the brainwashing news. There are many set up court cases against people who got stuck in jail because of pure personal and political interests. They delete unemployed people from the statistics for 1 year if they got late 1 week to show in front of the employment agency which almost never offers you job like in all normal countries. The unemployment is at least 5-10 percent larger than reported. These are the most serious problems. The smaller problems list is much much larger. And finally the biggest problem is emigration of the young people because of this complex situation which nobody talks about and can not be heard if he wants to talk.

My post was very off-topic, i hope there will be hearing more good news in the future.

[ramo]

With every release of new "bombi" it is more and more evident that the recordings are definitely supplied by an outside conspirator. I for one would rather have a dictator in power, rather than handing over power to a traitor who has a debt to repay to a foreign accomplice.

Both parties need to be thrown in jail.

Gocka, let's say that this is foreign thing (which i personally believe is not and they would have proven it by now) , why does not anybody takes responsibility for the absence of security system that will protect the Macedonian citizens against such acts. Let's say we can not beat them, but since now it is clear there is security breach, there are 2 options. High ranked people in the ministry of interior and intelligence services should be replaced immediately if we were normal country. Not they are not replaced, but they are pretending nothing has happened and showing up on government controlled TV stations.

Second option is declaring "persona non grata" for foreign ambassadors from the country that was surveying us. There was already one case of wiretapping few months ago with court sentences for collaboration with foreign intelligence service. Also no official representative was expelled from Macedonia. Do you think such government should stay in power at all costs and do you think this kind of government will protect us from foreign enemies? If your opinion is affirmative, then we probably have nothing to debate for in future.

[Gocka]

My opinion is that they don't know who did the wire tapping. We both know Macedonia is a third world country with third world capabilities. If Germany could not protect itself against the US wire tapping their Prime Minister, then what makes you think Macedonia can not be wire tapped? I think VMRO is in total shock and doesn't know what to do yet. Even if they do know who did the wire tapping and it is a foreign intelligence service, then expelling an ambassador would be a huge step, which frankly is not in our favor anyway. We are a tiny country, with nothing to offer anyone.

Most of us including me have been calling for Grujo and his band to be deposed for years. Most of us never fell for his fake patriotism. You have to understand though is that allowing foreign interests dictate who your leaders will be is suicide for the average citizen. He needs to go but not like this, because currently the political vacuum that would be left behind can only be filled by a group of people who are potentially worse, and that is not a risk worth taking. There is a saying, "out of a frying pan and into the fire", that is how I see Macedonia right now.

Hopefully with all these revelations both parties discredit each other, and a push is made to make elections more fair. So far I don't see anyone in the political realm who is ready to lead Macedonia, and that is a big worry.

For the time being we just need to keep calm and try and start grass roots political movement sin Macedonia, that when a change over of power happens we don't commit political suicide.

Gocka, let's say that this is foreign thing (which i personally believe is not and they would have proven it by now) , why does not anybody takes responsibility for the absence of security system that will protect the Macedonian citizens against such acts. Let's say we can not beat them, but since now it is clear there is security breach, there are 2 options. High ranked people in the ministry of interior and intelligence services should be replaced immediately if we were normal country. Not they are not replaced, but they are pretending nothing has happened and showing up on government controlled TV stations.

Second option is declaring "persona non grata" for foreign ambassadors from the country that was surveying us. There was already one case of wiretapping few months ago with court sentences for collaboration with foreign intelligence service. Also no official representative was expelled from Macedonia. Do you think such government should stay in power at all costs and do you think this kind of government will protect us from foreign enemies? If your opinion is affirmative, then we probably have nothing to debate for in future.

[Philosopher]

We both know Macedonia is a third world country with third world capabilities. We are a tiny country, with nothing to offer anyone.

Two very powerful statements. Small correction. Macedonia is not a "third world country"; it is a "second world" country.

I would add the following.

As the article posted by Dejan noted, Macedonia is a country, that, frankly, no one cares about. There are some in the world who are not even familiar that such a country even exists. For many, the name "Macedonia" conjures up "Greece".

The only reason the article Dejan referenced mentioned Macedonia, in which the author noted was a "south Slavic" land, whatever that means, is because of the competing interests of the East and the West.

Apart from this, no one could care any less about Macedonia.

It is most sad, but it is most true.

Macedonia is a landlocked country with no particular useful resources or economy to speak of. It is a poor country with an ethnic identity that is disputed. The Macedonian people are as good as lost sheep.

This bugging scandal is a joke.

[Gocka]

Yes Macedonia is ranked as second world, but go to some Albanian villages around Debar, or some Macedonian villages in the North East and its is no different than Africa. I was merely exaggerating to make a point about how little clout and respect Macedonia commands on the world stage, which you seem to agree with.

Macedonia has very little land, a small population, is poor, has no natural resources, is land locked, has no industry, no economy, and on top of everything an ethnicity that is denied and a history that is debated.

Two very powerful statements. Small correction. Macedonia is not a "third world country"; it is a "second world" country.

I would add the following.

As the article posted by Dejan noted, Macedonia is a country, that, frankly, no one cares about. There are some in the world who are not even familiar that such a country even exists. For many, the name "Macedonia" conjures up "Greece".

The only reason the article Dejan referenced mentioned Macedonia, in which the author noted was a "south Slavic" land, whatever that means, is because of the competing interests of the East and the West.

Apart from this, no one could care any less about Macedonia.

It is most sad, but it is most true.

Macedonia is a landlocked country with no particular useful resources or economy to speak of. It is a poor country with an ethnic identity that is disputed. The Macedonian people are as good as lost sheep.

This bugging scandal is a joke.

[Gocka]

A SDSM party member came out today and claimed that the recordings are actually fakes. That they are multiple conversations that have been cropped and edited or taken out of context. Branko Crvenkoski once Gruevski's nemesis also came out and labeled Zaev's recordings as "gluposti".

If it can be proven that the recordings are fakes, then this might be the last time we hear from Zaev and SDSM. What an utterly idiotic move if this turns out to be true.

[Philosopher]

Yes Macedonia is ranked as second world, but go to some Albanian villages around Debar, or some Macedonian villages in the North East and its is no different than Africa. I was merely exaggerating to make a point about how little clout and respect Macedonia commands on the world stage, which you seem to agree with.

Relax. I was not being critical.

We agree.

Macedonia has very little land, a small population, is poor, has no natural resources, is land locked, has no industry, no economy, and on top of everything an ethnicity that is denied and a history that is debated.

Very well summed up.

Your statements explain exactly why people are fleeing Macedonia, and why, little by little, what is left of Macedonia will disappear. Ethnic Albanian enclaves will annex portions of Macedonia to Albania. The so-called international community will support it. And so will the Western media.

The EU supports the Greek historic position of the region, which in effect means our language, our culture, our name, and even our first names and surnames, are essentially artificial and imported.

Language and borders often define a nation. We have problems with both.

The growing Albanian minority (in fact majority in some regions) denies a single official language. Even if we ignore this, our language, the Macedonian language, is itself disputed historically by our enemies.

The problem with our borders, well, this is well-known.

The Macedonian government is spineless. It is a government of appeasement and compromise.

Macedonian officials have for years been willing to sell out the country's name for money and/or EU/NATO membership.

Do Macedonian political leaders even believe we are Macedonian?

[ramo]

A SDSM party member came out today and claimed that the recordings are actually fakes. That they are multiple conversations that have been cropped and edited or taken out of context. Branko Crvenkoski once Gruevski's nemesis also came out and labeled Zaev's recordings as "gluposti".

If it can be proven that the recordings are fakes, then this might be the last time we hear from Zaev and SDSM. What an utterly idiotic move if this turns out to be true.

Few politician and reporters confirmed the authenticity.So far nobody except gruevski contested their authenticity although only a fool can say something like that after he has heard them. If you do not point the person that claimed that the recordings are fakes you are nothing but liar. Of course if you really are, these qualifications would not bother you.

[Gocka]

Few politician and reporters confirmed the authenticity.So far nobody except gruevski contested their authenticity although only a fool can say something like that after he has heard them. If you do not point the person that claimed that the recordings are fakes you are nothing but liar. Of course if you really are, these qualifications would not bother you.

That's not a problem friend, I was on the Macedonian new Yesterday. Branko Crvenkoski also contested them, I will post the video for you, it was actually at a press conference that a SDSM member claimed that they are fake. I didn't say it was true, but the claim was made, I don't know what to believe anymore.

http://www.sitel.com.mk/sdsm-prizna-deka-materijalite-prezentirani-od-zaev-se-secheni-i-montirani

[Gocka]

Relax. I was not being critical.

We agree.

I didn't take it as such, I wasn't trying to be confrontational.

[ramo]

i hate to defend branko, but there was some kind of statement that said something like "the published content of the audio between two person mentioning branko (not branko speaking himself because there is still no audio from him) is stupidity", not that the conversations are fake or not authentic.

сител is one of the biggest brainwashing machines.But they did not even contested the authenticity of the conversations in the video you posted. Imagine they do not publish not a milisecond of the coversations but they hurry to public demants from vmro full of manipulations. These are 2 conversation of the head of the secret police and one editor in sitel and the owner of kanal5 the biggest brainwashing machines and national TV stations. They are instructed how to make the news.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uFEHFy-RBc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtXTutEB1GU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1NQrY6xtG8

Yesterday the security of the national tv MTV stopped radio program because general Stojance Angelov was supposed to be guest. Their explanation was that the employee did not show them ID so they stopped the program to legitimate him.


on this link is the audio. It is uploaded on soundcloud.

http://www.radiomof.mk/audio-obezbeduvanjeto-na-mrt-upadna-vo-emisija-na-kanal-103/

[Gocka]

Like I said the claim is out there, so far nothing what anyone has said has been verified by any neutral party.

I also saw the report about Angelov earlier but didn't have a chance to post a link.

Its interesting, MTV came out and claimed that they had no hand in what happened to the radio 103 voditel. Yet in the recording you can clearly hear the security guard tell the guy show me your ID or come with me right in the middle of a live recording.

Was Angelov supposed to be on the radio? I know Angelov was denied entry into MRTV but why, what is the justification for not letting him in?

[Gocka]

Ramo,

Ako ti e polesno mozime i po nase da razgovarame, bas razgovorov mi e interesn deka e tesko vamu od CAD da najdis dobri informaci. Ako baras vesti samo po ovije golemi stanici kako Sitel mojs da najdis. Me interesira so Angelov so se desi, znam se bunese deka na MTV ne gi imet ni spomnato snimanite razgovori, pa vetil deka nekako ke gi donesel toj na javnoswt preku MRTV. A setne nesto se desilo ne go pustale natre vo zgradata? Znam so im mu e celta na Angelov ama so mu e na MTV izgovorot, zosto ne go pustet?

A me interesira od kade mislis snimkive se originalno snimani? Mislis vladava sami se imet snimano ili kako? Nemoj da mislis deka nekako gi podrzavam na VMRO deka absolutno ne e taka, bas mi e milo ako padnat od vlas radi ova, ama ova morat da e vistina i morat na krajot grajganite da odlucet koj ke bidit na vlas, a ne nekako Zaev da se piknit bez da imat izbori.

So mislis za Angelov? Ako bi moral da odberam nekoj od poznatite za da prezemi bi rekol Angelov.

[ramo]

Ramo,

Ako ti e polesno mozime i po nase da razgovarame, bas razgovorov mi e interesn deka e tesko vamu od CAD da najdis dobri informaci. Ako baras vesti samo po ovije golemi stanici kako Sitel mojs da najdis. Me interesira so Angelov so se desi, znam se bunese deka na MTV ne gi imet ni spomnato snimanite razgovori, pa vetil deka nekako ke gi donesel toj na javnoswt preku MRTV. A setne nesto se desilo ne go pustale natre vo zgradata? Znam so im mu e celta na Angelov ama so mu e na MTV izgovorot, zosto ne go pustet?

A me interesira od kade mislis snimkive se originalno snimani? Mislis vladava sami se imet snimano ili kako? Nemoj da mislis deka nekako gi podrzavam na VMRO deka absolutno ne e taka, bas mi e milo ako padnat od vlas radi ova, ama ova morat da e vistina i morat na krajot grajganite da odlucet koj ke bidit na vlas, a ne nekako Zaev da se piknit bez da imat izbori.

So mislis za Angelov? Ako bi moral da odberam nekoj od poznatite za da prezemi bi rekol Angelov.

Ne e deka ne go pushat vnatre. Toj saka da gi pushtat razgovorite da gi slushnat gragjanite pa sami da odluchat. 4-te najgolemi makedonski televizii nemaat pushteno nishto. Nekoj ke reche mozhat shto sakaat da pushtaat ama ne e taka. Po zakon ne smeat da dezinformiraat. Eve go zakonot

http://www.ujp.gov.mk/files/attachment/0000/0475/Zakon_za_radiodifuzna_dejnost_13-12_od_27_01_2012.pdf

Радио и телевизиските програми се темелат врз следниве принципи:
- право на слободен прием и пренесување на информации и право на слобода на изразување;

This is about the MRT national TV .

Заради остварување на јавниот интерес МРТ е должна:
- да обезбеди програмите што се произведуваат и емитуваат да бидат заштитени од какво и да е влијание на власта, политички организации или центри на економска моќ;

- да обезбеди информирање за регионалните и локалните посебности и настани во Република Македонија;

МРТ е должна при создавањето и емитувањето на програмите да ги почитува професионалните принципи и на различните интереси во општеството да им обезбеди рамноправен пристап, да се залага за слободата и плурализмот на изразување на јавното мислење, како и да спречи каков било облик на расна, верска, национална, етничка и друга нетрпеливост.



Na MTV izgovorot mu e deka po preporaka na javen obvinitel (prosecutor) ne gi pushta snimkite bidejki bile del od policiska istraga, a istata televizija i Sitel (Shitel) pushtaat snimki od youtube koi isto se del od policiska istraga snimeni vo kabinetot na Gruevski koi mislat deka im se vo prilog.



I ushte edno da dodadam. Go pochituvam pravoto na sekoj gragjanin da bide podrzhuvach na bilo koja partija, ako ti si za vmro toa e tvoe sveto pravo. Vazhno e site da ja slushnat vistinata pa ako odberat da podrzhuvaat partii na vlast sekoj toa kje go pochituva, jas bi bil prv. Zaev iako mislam deka e profiter i mozhebi kriminalec, sepak imashe hrabrost da prezentira pred javnosta fakti za koi povekjeto lugje ne bea svesni iako site se svesni deka mozhe da go chini zatvor ili zhivot ushte polosho.

A za snimkite , mislam deka e logichna teorijata na komunistite deka site lugje gi imaat staveno na prislushuvanje. Logichno e bidejki toa objasnuva kako odednash site televizii zastanaa na strana na vlasta. Mislam deka se kupeni so uceni od nivni privatni razgovori. Toa gi objasnuva i neochekuvanite preminuvanja na luti protivnici na vlasta vo redovite na vmro dpmne i sedenjeto vo prvi redovi na partiski mitinzi iako do pred nekoe vreme bea ostri kritizeri na vlasta.

Za Angelov mislam deka e mozhebi eden od retkite politichari vo Makedonija shto zboruva toa shto go misli ne ja lazhe javnosta.