Macedonia and the European Union

[Imagination]

Does Macedonia need the EU ?

I guess there could be such a discussion. I really wonder how and from where does the EU get all that money to send in as support, debts and etc. Those are inhuman amounts and only China can match them. Forget that, but look at Ireland : it oposed the EU, but the European billionaires and bankers withdrew their money from the Irish banks and bankrupt them.... look at the "warm support" they give to Ireland now : new debts, as like there weren't enough before.... Look at Greece, the same example, where the heck does the EU get 300 billion to give to Greece again ? Is there no end to this debt-giving ? Look at Zimbabwe : it was a landlocked country, its policy was hated by its neighbours, and it always criticized and did bad against the UK, its former colonizer. But.... Zimbabwe was not alone... it has just 10,000 army personel, but it's best friend is China, a great power that supports it... why doesn't Macedonia choose India or Russia for example ? Why doesn't it find support from distant countries, why does it look for support in sharks like NATO or the EU ? If someone does something against those two, I mean a country, it will surely be eliminated either by war, or by bankruptcy. Does Macedonia really need the EU , including the idea that Macedonia being surrounded by enemies, it should find some protection, but not to promise itself in service...

[BigMak]

its a fair debate, 20 years has passed and with little to show for the desire of Nato and EU membership, We can only be critical of the Macedonian government during this time frame. Can Macedonian policy change? its a big question

My next question is to the UMD, IF they are the voice of the diaspora (as they like to portray) why do they support EU and Nato membership.

[fyrOM]

Do you think one can only have one friend. If Macedonia enters the eu do you think Macedonia will stop being friends with China…yes they already are friends or do you not get all the news where you are from.

[Pelister]

The European Council does not recognise the Macedonian people, or the Macedonian State. The only question we need to be asking is why is our historical and political identity being 'negotiated'? If the answer to that question is 'membership to the European Union', then Gruevski has been lying to all of us because the 'negotiations' stem from the fact that the United Nations told us our temporary name would be FYROM until we sorted out our 'differences' with the New Greeks. The deception is a clever one. But it only really comes to light when we learn that we are not in fact 'blocked' from the United Nations at all. The critical point was when the Macedonians accepted to 'negotiate' instead of challenging the UN, because at that very moment, the Macedonians had 'locked' themselves into a perputual never ending 'dispute' that was not legitimate or valid to begin with. Given the terms put to us by the Greeks, only two outcomes were possible, one our political extinction, or two, continual 'negotiating'. Either way, our political extermination is now in real time political play. Gruevski knows and understands this, yet he continues to meddle with our identity. I mean does anyone honestly believe that the invading 'Greeks' have a historical right to Macedonian territory? No. Nevetheless its an 'assumption' that is build into the process. Gruevski has not only recklessly exposed us, but his 'silence' on key historical points has meant that these lies and assumptions get free international publicity. The false ideal of the E.U pushed by Gruevski and UMD is just another way of burying the truth. It also brings to light how Macedonians in the government and at UMD are contributing to the destabilisation of the region by putting unnecessary pressure on the country. Why push a 'solution' to what is fundamentally an illegitimate case? What about rejecting the terms put to us by the E.U, or the terms put to us by Greece, or those proposed by UMD? Why support an organization or an institution, whether it be 'Western' or Macedonian (UMD) if they believe that FYROM is an acceptable compromise? UMD support our admission to NATO as FYROM and presumably the E.U? The Macedonians have to stop looking to the E.U, and respond appropriately to its anti-Macedonian position; rather than continue to down this charade its on right now. The only thing - the only thing the E.U has to offer the Macedonians is full recognition. If it can't do that, then it continues to offer us nothing, and it continues to be the pariah we have always known it is.

[Risto the Great]

Macedonia does not need the EU.
It would most definitely have advantages in remaining outside of the EU.
The disadvantages of joining the EU are immediately obvious if you look at countries like Bulgaria and Romania amongst others.

[makedonche]

Macedonia needs a lot of things, nbut the EU is not one of them, I think more importantly they need to take Goce Doltchev's advice and free themselves from their slave mentality before they contemplate EU membership!

[George S.]

The eu from what we have seen is a wasted space .In answer to the question do we need the answer is no.The eu looks like it needs silly countries that wish to surrender their sovereignity over to the eu & become a lacky.We should be wise not to step into eu minefield or trap.We can survive on our own.Fuck off EU i mean it!

[Jankovska]

Macedonia does not need the EU and is actually lucky and much better off that it's not a member. Let's all work and pray it stays that way.

[Risto the Great]

I really wonder how and from where does the EU get all that money to send in as support, debts and etc.

Have you seen the external debt per capita statistics for EU member states like Greece and Bulgaria? It is unsustainable and will be their undoing. The EU doesn't need real money, it needs to mortgage countries to the hilt. It is achieving its objective by binding them under the slavery of massive debt.

[Soldier of Macedon]

We do not need to beg for entry into an organisation that doesn't respect our state or people. The EU is not that much different to Yugoslavia where it concerns Macedonia, both entities have/had the intention of robbing the Macedonians of their national heritage and integrity. The main difference would be that it is German and French chauvinists rather than Serbian one's who will be running the show.

It is shameful that our politicians are always begging to enter somebody else's house, rather than spending time to fix and reinforce our own.

[Currency Trader]

Can Macedonia Benefit or Grow Economically From EU Membership?

This topic has been lifted from the prior topic of "Macedonians against NATO membership if we have to change the name".

The tile subject is certainly interesting and important to native Macedonians and Macedonian politicians - Although, diaspora Macedonians would also welcome a discussion on the title of this subject.


***************


Pelister said:

No one has been able to show that E.U membership will benefit Macedonia 'economically' or how

No one has been able to show that E.U membership will NOT benefit Macedonia economically. I have read several claims on this but nobody has shown with facts that Macedonia will not benefit economically - Some people attempt to use Ireland, Greece, Spain or Bulgaria as evidence, although these countries in-particular Greece, have suffered on their own merits with fiscal and structural mismanagement. Ireland suffered from a classic boom and bust cycle after a super long growth expansion of 10 years. That all ended when the global financial crisis developed late 2007 which also affected most EU countries, including Spain and Bulgaria.

While Rome was not built overnight, empirical research evidence on new members in 2004 (Latvia, Estonia, Slovakia, Czech Republic, Lithuania, Poland, Hungary, Slovenia) have shown that access to EU markets (thru EU agreements) have resulted in substantial growth in trade. Although data is limited, economic integration between the older member states (EU15) and the new member states has been developing progressively. The new states quickly became EU’s second trade partner after the US, accounting for 12.3% of EU’s total external trade. At the same time, EU is the most important partner for the new member states (including Bulgaria and Romania).

Moreover, membership brings further trade liberalization regarding sensitive sectors (agriculture, steel, services) and non-tariff barriers as well as a possible reduction of transport costs.

Furthermore, empirical research point to foreign direct investment (FDI) inflows as key driver for economic growth for these new members in the second half of the 1990s. Most of these inflows came from EU15, such as Holland, Germany, France, Austria etc. - Foreign investors regarded these countries as up-and-coming new EU states with structural improvements such as low cost production, skilled workforce, and EU adapted standards.

In addition, Macedonia will probably receive financial funds from EU on regional development, the so-called ERDF, ESF and Cohesion funding. These funds are provided for countries like Macedonia and are used to develop economic structures, creating jobs, research and innovation, and infrastructure investments. These funds are much needed and would support Macedonian development. I’d say that Macedonia will benefit economically on just the EU funding. Most developing countries need outside capital to support their initial phases and Macedonia is no exception.

A country of such small size as Macedonia would most likely benefit from the huge EU markets. As long as they run the country in proper order, the upside potential outweighs the downside risk.

Something to ponder, an overwhelming majority of ALL central, northern and eastern European counties have joined EU. While Turkey is not a full member of EU, just yet, even THEY wish to join. Although, they benefit from the special customs union with EU which enhances their exports and FDI.



*************

Pelister said:

In fact prices of all things will rise. It’s going to make life harder for the average Macedonian family

Based on what empirical evidence will prices of all “things” rise if they join EU?


--

[Prolet]

CT, I think your last question is kind of obvious, just look at Greece and Bulgaria how they can barely afford the price rises and they come to Macedonia to do their shopping. Hell the Greeks even fill up their cars with Petrol in Medzitlija.

I think you need to watch Milenko Nedelkovski on Janko Jadi Burek's show and he goes into detail about the benefits of being in the EU. We are the only country in Europe that is being blackmailed in order to gain EU entry, there is not a single precedent so you should understand why the majority of us are against this.

[Makedonska_Kafana]

Macedonia has almost EVERY benefit any member state has without the required costs that come along with the dictatorship/pyramid. What exactly are people looking for because the EU or NATO will NOT be helping with wages, housing, healthcare etc. UNLESS you pay a very heavy price.

Better off playing the Lotto, way better chances!

[Risto the Great]

Prolet, by putting quotation marks around "things", CT can suggest that not all "things" will increase in price. It is a marvelous tool for self-delusion. Everyone has seen the impact on prices in the countries in our region who have joined the EU.

Romania has the highest inflation in the entire EU right now. Bulgaria is 3rd highest.
But they are living the dream according to CT and he is willing to bet the Macedonian identity on it.

A couple of better questions:
Can Macedonia Grow Economically without EU Membership?

And another:
Are Macedonians willing to sacrifice their identity in order to test the notion that EU membership will benefit them?


Here is something I was reading whilst in China in relation to their new foreign aid policy:

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/opinion/2011-04/22/content_12374296.htm

Money clearly exists out there WITHOUT a requirement to prostitute our identity it would seem. But CT seems to like it EU style.

Basic features of China's foreign aid policy are as follows:

Unremittingly helping recipient countries build up their self-development capacity. Practice has proved that a country's development depends mainly on its own strength. In providing foreign aid, China does its best to help recipient countries to foster local personnel and technical forces, build infrastructure, and develop and use domestic resources, so as to lay a foundation for future development and embarkation on the road of self-reliance and independent development.

Imposing no political conditions. China upholds the Five Principles of Peaceful Coexistence, respects recipient countries' right to independently select their own path and model of development, and believes that every country should explore a development path suitable to its actual conditions. China never uses foreign aid as a means to interfere in recipient countries' internal affairs or seek political privileges for itself.

Adhering to equality, mutual benefit and common development. China maintains that foreign aid is mutual help between developing countries, focuses on practical effects, accommodates recipient countries' interests, and strives to promote friendly bilateral relations and mutual benefit through economic and technical cooperation with other developing countries.

Remaining realistic while striving for the best. China provides foreign aid within the reach of its abilities in accordance with its national conditions. Giving full play to its comparative advantages, China does its utmost to tailor its aid to the actual needs of recipient countries.

Keeping pace with the times and paying attention to reform and innovation. China adapts its foreign aid to the development of both domestic and international situations, pays attention to summarizing experiences, makes innovations in the field of foreign aid, and promptly adjusts and reforms the management mechanism, so as to constantly improve its foreign aid work.

[Currency Trader]

CT, I think your last question is kind of obvious, just look at Greece and Bulgaria how they can barely afford the price rises and they come to Macedonia to do their shopping. Hell the Greeks even fill up their cars with Petrol in Medzitlija.
.

It's not so obvious - I'll respond to your answer, but will wait until the answer comes from the person who made the claim.






.