Russia, Conservatism & Orthodoxy

[Risto the Great]

I think one of them is flossing with cock. But mostly right.

[Om3n]

If Macedonians would like their own indepedent church there is no good reason or argument that could or should prevent that

But the SOC in Yugoslavia did recognise an independent Macedonian church with full autonomy. The MOC, however, wanted autocephalous status, meaning the right to appoint its own Patriarch rather than submit to the Patriach of Pec. It is this which is not recognised and why the MOC is regarded as schismatic. Doubtless, post-Yugoslav politics has been a major stumbling block on the road to reconciliation but the haughtiness of the MOC must be acknowledged.

[Risto the Great]

"Haughtiness" because the Macedonian church wanted to be no less than the Serbian church. Spare me.

[Om3n]

"Haughtiness" because the Macedonian church wanted to be no less than the Serbian church. Spare me.

How were they "less" than the Serbian Church in whose power it was in the first place to grant them autonomy? Simply put, the only caveat to this is that the Serbian Patriarchate would ordain the Archbishop of the Church but in every other respect it was independent and self-governing, and "Macedonian". The Serbs have always been the most sympathetic to Macedonians' self-determination as a separate nation but nonetheless in the realm of religion this is another matter altogether. For the first thousand years there were only five Patriarchates in the whole world and they were all centred around cities not kingdoms, regions, or "ethnicities".

[Om3n]

You know that Christ said "it is the one who is least among you all who is the greatest"?

[vicsinad]

How were they "less" than the Serbian Church in whose power it was in the first place to grant them autonomy?

Who gave the Serbian Orthodox Church that power, and when and how?

Power unfairly and inappropriately given or assumed is an illegitimate power.

The Serbs have always been the most sympathetic to Macedonians' self-determination as a separate nation

I'm assuming you're talking about Serbia in comparison to Macedonia's neighboring Balkan states. It is simply not true that Serbs have always been most sympathetic. In recent times I'd say that's a fair assessment. But historically (and especially between 1900s and 1930s) the Serbs' track record was abysmal. For the longest time, the Serbian regime was opposed to Macedonians' self-determination.

[Om3n]

Who gave the Serbian Orthodox Church that power, and when and how?

It was granted it in the Ecumenical Patriarchate (one of the five ancient Sees I mentioned above) in the 14th century. I'm not sure what you mean by how.

Power unfairly and inappropriately given or assumed is an illegitimate power.

Exactly, and this is why the MOC is in the position it's in.

I'm assuming you're talking about Serbia in comparison to Macedonia's neighboring Balkan states.

Yes. I'm not exempting them.

[Karposh]

How were they "less" than the Serbian Church in whose power it was in the first place to grant them autonomy?

It's funny to hear you say that because in 1219 it was the Ohrid Archbishopric which had the power to grant the Serbian Church independence but it was instead granted by the Nicean archbishop when they decided to break away from the Ohrid Archbishopric. Quite ironic don't you think that the mother church has to now beg the runaway daughter for recognition?

It was granted it in the Ecumenical Patriarchate (one of the five ancient Sees I mentioned above) in the 14th century

I presume you're referring to the raising of the autocephalous Serbian Archbishopric to the status of Patriarchate in the 14th century when you speak of the “granting of power”.

From Wikipedia:

The status of the Serbian Orthodox Church grew along with the expansion and heightened prestige of the Serbian kingdom. After King Stefan Dušan assumed the imperial title of tsar, the Serbian Archbishopric was correspondingly raised to the rank of Patriarchate in 1346. In the century that followed, the Serbian Church achieved its greatest power and prestige.
On April 16, 1346 (Easter), Stefan Dušan convoked a grand assembly at Skopje, attended by the Serbian Archbishop Joanikije II, Archbishop Nicholas I of Ohrid, Patriarch Simeon of Bulgaria and various religious leaders of Mount Athos. The assembly and clergy agreed on, and then ceremonially performed the raising of the autocephalous Serbian Archbishopric to the status of Patriarchate.

[Om3n]

It's funny to hear you say that because in 1219 it was the Ohrid Archbishopric which had the power to grant the Serbian Church independence but it was instead granted by the Nicean archbishop when they decided to break away from the Ohrid Archbishopric. Quite ironic don't you think that the mother church has to now beg the runaway daughter for recognition?

No, because there is no continuity between the MOC and the Ohrid Archbishopric.

[Karposh]

No, because there is no continuity between the MOC and the Ohrid Archbishopric.

Are you referring to its abolition in 1767?

[Risto the Great]

How were they "less" than the Serbian Church in whose power it was in the first place to grant them autonomy? Simply put, the only caveat to this is that the Serbian Patriarchate would ordain the Archbishop of the Church but in every other respect it was independent and self-governing, and "Macedonian". The Serbs have always been the most sympathetic to Macedonians' self-determination as a separate nation but nonetheless in the realm of religion this is another matter altogether. For the first thousand years there were only five Patriarchates in the whole world and they were all centred around cities not kingdoms, regions, or "ethnicities".

The Serbs are one of the wolves who suppressed and denied the Macedonian identity. Not sure where you've been the last 100 years. Waiting for the Serbian church to do anything for the Macedonian church sounds very much like a pro Yugo mentality. The same mentality has created the fyromian and NMKD mental distortions. I can't take you seriously.

[Om3n]

The Serbs are one of the wolves who suppressed and denied the Macedonian identity. Not sure where you've been the last 100 years. Waiting for the Serbian church to do anything for the Macedonian church sounds very much like a pro Yugo mentality. The same mentality has created the fyromian and NMKD mental distortions. I can't take you seriously.

For about three quarters of those 100 years I was not existing. It's still not clear to me what people here are advocating for when they want "recognition" for the Macedonian Church. As I stated, the SOC did recognise the MOC as autonomous but the latter declared themselves autocephalous which, as far as I'm aware, no other autocephalous Church did. Somehow you find this insulting as it makes them "less" in some way or another. I suppose that makes the autonomous national Orthodox Churches of several countries less than their respective mother Church. It reminds me of the Christological dispute at the very First Ecumenical Council wherein Arius the heretic said that the Son must be "less" than the Father. But no one is really coming at this from a perspective of faith but rather national/political interests as if we're owed something, forgetting that we didn't do anything to receive salvation but God out of his good pleasure bestowed it on us.

[Karposh]

No, because there is no continuity between the MOC and the Ohrid Archbishopric.

I'll comment on your most recent post in a minute Omen but can you clarify this statement for me please. Are you referring to its abolition in 1767?

[vicsinad]

But no one is really coming at this from a perspective of faith but rather national/political interests

It wasn't the Macedonians who intertwined religion with nationality in the Balkans during the national revival period: that was Serbs, Bulgars and Greeks. The use of the Church to advance rival national claims nearly destroyed the Macedonian people. Therefore, any authority or recognition given to these churches on Macedonian territory is rightfully deemed invalid. Macedonia's national interests are, unfortunately, currently inseparable from the Macedonian Orthodox Church, and this is because Serbia, Bulgaria and Greece, in the late 19th century, treated their churches as national and political tools. And they still do today.

Until the Balkan peoples (and others) can agree to completely disassociate nationality from Orthodoxy, the MOC should continue to demand equal standing and footing as other churches. That's the Macedonian argument. A case can be made for an Orthodox religious argument, which I'm not qualified to advocate for or oppose, but I do know the prime target of that argument should not be the Macedonian Orthodox Christians, but others.

[Om3n]

Are you referring to its abolition in 1767?"

Yeah, man.

Macedonia's national interests are, unfortunately, currently inseparable from the Macedonian Orthodox Church, and this is because Serbia, Bulgaria and Greece, in the late 19th century, treated their churches as national and political tools. And they still do today.

My point was not that nationality doesn't belong in religion or the Church but that the reasons for wanting an autocephalous Macedonian Church are more national/political than religious. I've yet to see an argument as to why autonomy made the Macedonian Church any "less" holy, independent, Macedonian, or whatever else. If they went along more than a measly decade they might've gotten their autocephaly; now they're begging the Bulgarian Church to be their "mother".