Macedonia and NATO

[Pelister]

When I see the New Greeks stealing my identity, my culture, my heritage and my name after a century of colonial invasion, or Macedonians being murdered by Greeks, dispossessed and destroyed - see pictures like that makes my blood boil.

[Sovius]

They feel robbed

A highly ironic statement in light of the occupation and partition of Macedonia. So many innocent lives were lost and now your people feel robbed? American newspapers during the early part of the 20th Century reported something quite different than what’s been passed on pseudo-historically as the liberation of Macedonia within the Republic of Hellas. I believe you are dangerously assuming an ignorance that was never there for you to exploit in the first place.

“Dont worry you will be free in Greece anyway. You can claim to be whatever u want. But of course you have to consider the Greeks sencitivity when refer to your ethnic identity with the name Macedonia(n). But even if you do, in most cases you will be ignored. Many of your compatriots visit or work in Greece and dont seem to have problems.”

Not according to Human Rights Watch. I believe there are some Macedonian truck drivers who see things a little differently, as well. You do realize that there’s nothing that you can say regarding this matter to counter what can be readily and independently researched by anyone with even the slightest interest in investigating these dishonest statements? Ethnic Macedonians are forbidden to speak the Macedonian language in the Republic of Hellas. This is a fact. What you’ve presented is an untruth.




“each side has its own opinion, facts, arguments and truths on this issue.”

There is only one set of verifiable facts and only one way in which the course of events unfolded and continue to unfold. You are sadly mistaken.

Irony, An etymologically framed Definition

French ironie, from Old French, from Latin īrōnīa, from Greek eirōneia, feigned ignorance, from eirōn, dissembler, probably from eirein, to say

Work Makes You Free

[I of Macedon]

Here we go again

Sly, racist and ignorant remarks.....if its assumed true


Mannheim, Germany - The head of a German museum which is set to show an exhibition about Alexander the Great weighed into a dispute between Skopje and Athens on Friday, saying the ancient leader had been predominantly Greek.

The modern state of Macedonia, where the main language is a Slavic one, claims the heritage of ancient Macedonia.

'Alexander was predominantly Greek and definitely not an ancestor of contemporary Slavic Macedonians,' said Alfried Wieczorek, head of the Reiss-Engelhorn Museums in the southern German city of Mannheim.

The exhibition devoted to the ancient general and ruler, who lived from 356 to 323 BC, opens on Saturday and runs till February 21.

For two decades, Athens has been objecting to its northern neighbour calling itself Macedonia. Skopje has named its airport after Alexander and insists on having Alexander's 'star of Vergina' symbol on its coat of arms.

In an interview with the German Press Agency dpa, Wieczorek said, 'The latest research shows very clearly yet again that the Macedonians in the days of Alexander were closely related to the contemporary Greeks.'

He added, 'In antiquity, Greeks and Macedonians could interact because they spoke the same language.'

Athens has been insisting that the name Macedonia can only been applied to a province in its own north.

The country of Macedonia became independent in 1991 when Yugoslavia split up. The name issue has held up efforts to bring the new country into NATO and into formal assocation with the European Union.

The museum director referred to findings that its population of 2 million, one quarter of them Albanian speakers and three quarters Slavic speakers, are descended from people who immigrated in the 6th century of the modern era, long after Alexander's death.

http://www.monstersandcritics.com/news/europe/news/article_1504631.php/German-museum-man-says-Alexander-the-Great-was-mainly-Greek

http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/show/288373,modern-macedonians-not-sons-of-alexander-the-great-scholar-says.html

NOTE further ignorance the last link written by the journo, apparently "slavs" migrated from Asia, to quote;

"Slavs began arriving from Asia in the 6th century, a millenium after Alexander died. These were the predecessors of Slavic Macedonians, who represent a three-quarter majority in the former Yugoslav republic, which has a significant, 25-per cent Albanian minority."

[Jankovska]

Bet Dora paid him well

[makedonin]

Alfried Wieczorek

Says the German with Hungarian or was it Polish name

Alexander was predominantly Greek and definitely not an ancestor of contemporary Slavic Macedonians,'

Why predominantly. Why the hesitation. How come he is not certain about it, but definitly certain about our anscestors!. Politician.

Nothing new from Germans.

The museum director referred to findings that its population of 2 million, one quarter of them Albanian speakers and three quarters Slavic speakers, are descended from people who immigrated in the 6th century of the modern era, long after Alexander's death.

Did the Ancient Macedonians died out after Alexander died!?

I guess, all those Orthodox Turks implanted in Macedonia are much more related to the Alexanders Macedonians than we the "6 th" Century people can ever dream of!

What a stupidity.

'The latest research shows very clearly yet again that the Macedonians in the days of Alexander were closely related to the contemporary Greeks.'

I would really like to see these latest researches! Did Alexander spoke Dialect of Turkish, may be Albanian or Vlachika, or was he Slavophone!? Were they maybe Orthodox!? Those latest researches are really interesting SCI-FI thing, I love it.

[Soldier of Macedon]

He added, 'In antiquity, Greeks and Macedonians could interact because they spoke the same language.'

Hellenic was a language of education, trade and commerce, and it had a popular writing system, many people in antiquity could speak it for these purposes. Just stick to the museum display you silly Slavogerman.

[Risto the Great]

The "head of a museum" was talking it up to get more people visiting.
Anything goes for more customers.
C'mon German Macedonians, get him to reveal the "latest research".

[Pantaleon]

Lately? Our neighbours have behaved like greedy dogs towards Macedonia and the Macedonians since the 19th century. The plan of striking back is working well, the world is hearing our side too, the world knows we exist, everything is working out fine. Are you trying to scare-monger? Like Macedonia should run to Greece for help? Lol.....get real mate.

How have Greeks behaved like greedy dogs towards you?
Sorry but 19th century and early 20th there is no such census of the existance of a Ethnic Macedonian nation. There are plenty of referneces of Macedonian-Bulgarian, or Macedonian-Greek and etc.
Your own BMPO heroes Goce Delchev, Dame Gruev, Tatarchev and others had a much different idea about their backgrounds & goals that what you think.

In what we call North Macedonia (the south part of the Republic of Macedonia) there were numerous Greeks schools, communities & churches and etc. All documented in any Ottoman census you want. These communities, churches & schools in their vast majority where NOT sponsored by the Greek kingdom of the time. the local Greek communities built them. Where were your communities, schools, churches at the time? I cant find any records and i would be happy to see some.

You have this idea that we stole something from you, sorry we havent stolen nothing. All we did was liberate what we could from the Ottoman empire and the Bulgarian ambitions. I am sure the each of the participants of that war have their own point of view on this. Greeks are not more guilty that anyone in those wars. Serbs occupied what is today the Republic of Macedonia, but you seem to not much problems with them..

however the SNOF & NOF tried to steal from us, but failed miserably.

That's funny, the robber crying foul, lol, what have Macedonians robbed from Greeks? Come on, I am waiting for a reference to ancient history that will demonstrate your continued 4000 years of lineage, and how we "stole" it.

well you can visit your local library for that. i bet you will have a very difficult time proving the that Greeks do not have some kind of continuation and that Ethnic Macedonia somehow do..

And please dont acuse me of "Purity". No nation is pure, but still doesnt mean that nations do not evolve by adding others in the big group. But this did not happend to the extent that we loose our language, customs & etc.

And what was the purpose of posting those pictures? I can find you dozens of similar photos and youtube videos where Greeks are burning Macedonian flags, what does that mean, that your people are as animal as the racist Albanian next to you?

are those who burn Greek flags & put up posters in the center of your capital city in which our flag is used and the cross is replaced with a swastiga are less animal?

Unfortunately everyone in the balcans can be acused of similar actions. we must not allow these things and finally move on.

[Pantaleon]

Here's a great example of greek logic; by your theory, Macedonians cannot be called that because they are 'slavs' that have been here for 1400 years, yet in less than two generations the christian turk settlers in Aegean Macedonia are now the 'real' Macedonians.

oh boy...

i dont understand this "christian Turk" theory of yours..


why Vodenka & and few others who dont speak your language, are allowed to consider themselves as ethnic Macedonian (and be accepted as such) and our people that came to Greece due to the population exchange considered "Christian Turks"?


the "Christian Turks" had already been given a "patriarch" (Father Eftim I) in 1921 by Kemal's administration (1 years before Greece's defeat) in order to undermine the Ecumenical Patriarchate. Why keep some and deport the others?

[Pantaleon]

A highly ironic statement in light of the occupation and partition of Macedonia. So many innocent lives were lost and now your people feel robbed? American newspapers during the early part of the 20th Century reported something quite different than what’s been passed on pseudo-historically as the liberation of Macedonia within the Republic of Hellas. I believe you are dangerously assuming an ignorance that was never there for you to exploit in the first place.

It also very ironic you say that, since who we fought in the early part of the 20th century were organised Bulgarian & Turkish armies & gangs. I dont know were you fit in there?

so these American newspapers are talking about ethnic Macedonian people and not geographic group of people with different backgrounds? Strange because there are plentry more articles that state a whole different view of what you seem to have.

So basically what your saying is that Greeks tricked World's history right? So the world had to wait for 70-80 years till the Republic of Macedonia is as independent nation and another 15-20 years for Macedonian amateur internet historians to unleash the "truth". Well done then

[Risto the Great]

i dont understand this "christian Turk" theory of yours..


why Vodenka & and few others who dont speak your language, are allowed to consider themselves as ethnic Macedonian (and be accepted as such) and our people that came to Greece due to the population exchange considered "Christian Turks"?

Pantaleon, I can't remember if I have welcomed you here. I have been a little distracted lately. Welcome.

I am glad you have brought up the idea of Vodenka who apparently cannot speak Macedonian but is a native of the region versus the former Turkish christian nationals who came to Greece under the Treaty of Lausanne.

Do you really rate them more Macedonian than Vodenka? It would be good to finally come to a conclusion about this.

[Soldier of Macedon]

How have Greeks behaved like greedy dogs towards you?

There are millions of websites that answer that question. I am sure you know the arguments, nearly everything the modern Greek racists have done in Macedonia towards the Macedonian people was thievery and dog-like.

Sorry but 19th century and early 20th there is no such census of the existance of a Ethnic Macedonian nation.

Which census' are you talking about, Ottoman? Population figures stated by scholars, writers or foreigners? Can you show me ONE census before the 19th century that speaks of the existence of "Ethnic Hellene nation"?

Your own BMPO heroes Goce Delchev, Dame Gruev, Tatarchev and others had a much different idea about their backgrounds & goals that what you think.

This was due to Exarchate propaganda, not all of them had the same ideas, and most of them preferred autonomy for Macedonia than union with any of the neighbours. Goce Delcev never spoke about union with Bulgaria, and for that one dubious letter where reference is made to Bulgarians, there are several others that exist where only Macedonians is mentioned. How many letters of your revolutionaries speak of Hellenes as opposed to Romaioi? In fact, your heroes of independence are nearly all ALBANIANS. How many children in Hellas today are taught that their first president was an ALBANIAN who could not speak the Hellenic (called Roman then) tongue? None! Your nation is ashamed to admit to its true history, and you think you have the right to interfere with matters concerning my identity? Watch your step.

In what we call North Macedonia (the south part of the Republic of Macedonia) there were numerous Greeks schools, communities & churches and etc.

They were sponsored by the Patriarch, just like Bulgarian schools were sponsored by the Exarchate. Macedonians and Vlachs attended the former, and mostly Macedonians attended the latter. There were no "ethnic" Bulgar-speaking and Hellenic-speaking populations in Macedonia of significance. You demonstrate the typical (and deliberate) confusion of ethnicity and linguistic background with religious affiliation. We're used to it. It's about the only petty argument you have.

All we did was liberate what we could from the Ottoman empire and the Bulgarian ambitions.

No, you stole, burned, raped and pillaged in Macedonia. You claimed people's ethnicity based on their religion, you forced people to cease speaking their own tongues and practicing their own cultures, you supressed the native character of Macedonia and spread your propaganda and fear-mongering to all its corners. You liberated nothing, don't try and pretty up your picture with your 'sources', we have sources too that show that the overwhelming majority of Macedonians wanted to remain Macedonians and have nothing to do with the nationalistic battle between Bulgars and Hellenes.

Serbs occupied what is today the Republic of Macedonia, but you seem to not much problems with them..

Funny that, for Greece it's "liberation" but for other's its "occupation". Serbs don't occupy it now. Greece still occupies southern Macedonia.

.....the SNOF & NOF tried to steal from us, but failed miserably.

They were Macedonian fighters recruited from both the south and north of Macedonia, they tried to liberate their people and land, but again Greece managed to keep its stolen territory and prolong its occupation, due to external factors.

well you can visit your local library for that. i bet you will have a very difficult time proving the that Greeks do not have some kind of continuation and that Ethnic Macedonia somehow do..

I have, I can't find anything proving 4,000 years of continuity, that is why I asked you. Everybody has 'some kind' of continuity. Hey, you will call my people Macedonians as I call your people Greeks, I can see some of your neo-terminology creeping in like "Ethnic Macedonian nation" and "Ethnic Macedonia" when a simple reference to my people as Macedonians in both instances would have done. I am not interested in games, don't waste my time (or patience) with such things.

are those who burn Greek flags & put up posters in the center of your capital city in which our flag is used and the cross is replaced with a swastiga are less animal?

That swastika was put infront of your flag because your treatment of Macedonians resembles such behaviour. The Greek flags that are burned are done during an annual festival where Macedonia and her current issues are mocked by Macedonians, correct? Or are you reffering to a group of racists like so many in Greece such as your friends at Hrisi Avgi that wait at the border like blood-thirsty Nazis for Macedonians to cross over?

[Soldier of Macedon]

So the world had to wait for 70-80 years till the Republic of Macedonia is as independent nation and another 15-20 years for Macedonian amateur internet historians to unleash the "truth".

Amateur or not, the content disproves common misconceptions about both Macedonians and Greeks. You people are afraid of history, its ok, we will tell both of our histories as they really were.

[Sovius]

It also very ironic you say that, since who we fought in the early part of the 20th century were organised Bulgarian & Turkish armies & gangs. I dont know were you fit in there?

so these American newspapers are talking about ethnic Macedonian people and not geographic group of people with different backgrounds? Strange because there are plentry more articles that state a whole different view of what you seem to have.

So basically what your saying is that Greeks tricked World's history right? So the world had to wait for 70-80 years till the Republic of Macedonia is as independent nation and another 15-20 years for Macedonian amateur internet historians to unleash the "truth". Well done then

“It also very ironic you say that, since who we fought in the early part of the 20th century were organised Bulgarian & Turkish armies & gangs.”

The opinions and politically biased findings of those who sought to remove Macedonia from existence are of no consequence to this discussion. Again, you are assuming an ignorance that was never there for you to exploit in the first place. The occupation of Macedonia was pre-meditated. I suggest you read up on Ion Dragoumis, before attempting this approach again. You might also try doing a search for some of the threads on this site regarding these questionable questionnaires. The Nazis also manipulated information for the sake of political gain.

“I dont know were you fit in there?”

This is because you weren’t educated according to historical reality, but, rather, a politically defined set of interpretations designed to reinforce the process of assimilation. Chomsky’s a good read if you ever want to dig yourself out of that hole. If you’re trying to imply that I’m some sort of deluded Bulgarian separatist, then you should know that I’m not Macedonian. I’m an American and I have simply taken the time to study the situation that Macedonians have found themselves entangled in. Consequently, I can no longer walk past a Greek restaurant without bursting into uncontrollable laughter.


“so these American newspapers are talking about ethnic Macedonian people and not geographic group of people with different backgrounds?”

Yes, very perceptive of you and quite unexpected.

“Strange because there are plentry more articles that state a whole different view of what you seem to have.”

The Macedonian refugees that moved into my family’s neighborhood a few generations back speak more towards the reality of Macedonia than media which served a political purpose during a certain day and age. Ever hear of Mike Illitch or the Detroit Red Wings?



“So basically what your saying is that Greeks tricked World's history right?”

No, you’re trying to delude yourself into believing that this is what I’m trying to imply.

“So the world had to wait for 70-80 years till the Rupublic of Macedonia is as independent nation and another 15-20 years for Macedonian amateur internet historians to unleash the "truth".”

If I might be permitted to answer a question with a question, how many pages written by “Macedonian amateur internet historians” did TrueMacedonian and Daskalot upload to this site to lead you to such a conclusion? The Greek pseudo-argument relies on politically contrived secondary sources, while the Macedonian argument is based on primary source documents and empirical evidence.

“Well done then”

I agree. TM’s approach of showing versus saying says quite a bit more than saying without showing, as you have shown without saying, you see?

[Risto the Great]

Skopje | 02 September 2009 | Sinisa-Jakov Marusic


Athens
Greece's main opposition party, the Panhellenic Socialist Party, PASOK, will take a different course in resolving the naming dispute with neighbouring Macedonia should it win fresh polls.

"When PASOK comes to power we will solve the issue .We will be sending a message of reconciliation, not of confrontation,“ PASOK's Andreas Loverdos, told Greek news portal Newstime.gr on Wednesday..

OK, you have your chance guys.

GREEK socialist leader George Papandreou has declared victory in the general election after trouncing the ruling conservatives of outgoing Prime Minister Costas Karamanlis.
“We stand here united before the great responsibility which we undertake, which I undertake,” Mr Papandreou told supporters from a special stand in front of the party's Athens headquarters.

The 57-year-old leader said his party had waged “a good fight to bring back hope and smiles on Greeks' faces ... to change the country's course into one of law, justice, solidarity, green development and progress”.

Bouncing back from a demoralising defeat in 2007, the Pasok socialists won over 43 per cent of the vote and look set to capture a 159-seat majority in the 300-deputy parliament, according to results from nearly two thirds of polling stations.

In contrast, Mr Karamanlis resigned his party leadership after the conservatives produced one of their worst electoral results in their 35-year-history.

New Democracy looks set to win about 35 per cent of the vote and 94 seats.