Macedonia and NATO

[sf.]

Can Macedonia seek a policy of military non-alignment, like Finland...?

No, it's a totally different situation. Finland's important to NATO in their little game against Russia. Their needs are mutual. The Russian threat is real but not plausible, so this arrangement is unlikely to change in the medium-long term. To make it clear: Russia will never attack Finland and NATO would always defend it.

We're seeking NATO membership to ensure our security*. A non-alignment policy doesn't offer this as things can chop and change. If it suits the Americans, NATO could and would easily shaft us when an opportunity arose. Unfortunately, we don't have a trump card. Collaboration and a bit of PR that would stem from it isn't a strong cause, and regional instability is not as serious an issue, now that Kosovo has emerged and Albania and Bulgaria are in the NATO and EU folds respectively. We need to pursue full membership. The trick is to do it under the RoM name.

* - even under NATO we will have problems with the Albanians, but hopefully at least, our national borders will be secure. As for the nature of the political relationship within these borders, that's another matter. This is why Macedonia needs to do more itself to become stronger, and not rely entirely on outsiders.

[Vangelovski]

sf,

Who exactly are we "securing" ourselves against? NATO (3 of our neighbours are members)? Kosovo, a UN run protectorate? Serbia?

[sf.]

The Albanians extracting a territory Kosovo-style. They are our biggest threat in the short-medium term.

[Vangelovski]

The Albanians extracting a territory Kosovo-style. They are our biggest threat in the short-medium term.

NATO does not engage in the internal conficts of its member states and has demonstrated this. Take for example Northern Ireland, the Basques in Spain, Corsica in France or the Kurds in Turkey. What makes you think that NATO membership would change the dynamics in Macedonia? And why?

[sf.]

NATO does not engage in the internal conficts of its member states and has demonstrated this. Take for example Northern Ireland, the Basques in Spain, Corsica in France or the Kurds in Turkey. What makes you think that NATO membership would change the dynamics in Macedonia? And why?

What have you given me examples of? Failed separatist movements of NATO members?

NATO involvement in internal affairs cannot overtly manifest itself, because NATO is is an agreement before it is an organisation. The whole purpose of NATO is to protect its member states from external threats, so steps are taken to prop up this security through military cooperation, arms sales and support structures. Given this, how likely would the break-up of a NATO state occur? And how would the credibility of the organisation appear if this occured?

We need to ask ourselves if the threat of the break-up of Macedonia is more likely under NATO-membership and the status-quo preferences of its member-countries, or under a non-aligned scenario.

[Rogi]

NATO does not engage in the internal conficts of its member states and has demonstrated this.

Isn't that just it? They don't meddle in the internal conflicts of their own, but they'll meddle all they want in non-members, as happened in Macedonia in 2001.

I am of the belief that Macedonia's interest in joining NATO, is to be protected from NATO.

[Vangelovski]

That could be the case with a state that has a mature political cadre, but seeing the subservient politicians we elect, they are likely to run straight to NATO for help - i.e., meddling.

[Prolet]

Not only that Vangelovski keep in mind that Turkey and Greece went to war over Cyprus in 1974, both of them where Nato members yet it didnt stop them from going to war.

In 2001 we where attacked by terrorist groups from Kosovo, it was an external war thats why we shut the border and created a mrtva strazha which means the border guards could shoot to kill if they see anybody trying to cross the border.

[Phoenix]

Isn't that just it? They don't meddle in the internal conflicts of their own, but they'll meddle all they want in non-members, as happened in Macedonia in 2001.

I am of the belief that Macedonia's interest in joining NATO, is to be protected from NATO.

Good point...

NATO is making a big deal about joining everyone in Europe into the organization, even the traditionally 'neutral' nations of Switzerland, Sweden, Austria, Finland and Ireland are under some pressure to join...unfortunately in Macedonia's case it will be at the expense of our identity.

[Buktop]

Not only that Vangelovski keep in mind that Turkey and Greece went to war over Cyprus in 1974, both of them where Nato members yet it didnt stop them from going to war.

In 2001 we where attacked by terrorist groups from Kosovo, it was an external war thats why we shut the border and created a mrtva strazha which means the border guards could shoot to kill if they see anybody trying to cross the border.

We are not talking about a war between two NATO members, we are talking about insurgent rebellion, and the lack of interference by other NATO members in state affairs regarding police actions.

The evidence given by Vangelovski stands to reason that NATO members do not involve themselves in domestic police/military actions.

The point is we will not join under the current criteria.

(I have said this before)

[Risto the Great]

The evidence given by Vangelovski stands to reason that NATO members do not involve themselves in domestic police/military actions.

We have evidence otherwise. NATO did interfere in Macedonia's domestic dispute of 2001.

[Buktop]

We have evidence otherwise. NATO did interfere in Macedonia's domestic dispute of 2001.

And Macedonia wasn't a member of NATO in 2001, see the sentence above the one you quoted to get an idea of what I mean.

[Risto the Great]

And Macedonia wasn't a member of NATO in 2001, point taken

Good point indeed, you are right. I think it will be safe to say Macedonia will not win either way unless it negotiates harder.

[makedonche]

Good point indeed, you are right. I think it will be safe to say Macedonia will not win either way unless it negotiates harder.

I interperet that as "takes a firmer stand"!

[Prolet]

We wernt a Nato member in 2001 and we're not a member now whats the difference??

Its more than clear that the Americans were arming and training the Albanian Terrorists, its also more then clear that Terrorists from Kosovo also participated in the conflict. However we did have profiteers from our side and people like Ljubco Georgievski and Ljube Boskoski were accused of selling weapons to Ali Ahmeti.