Macedonia and NATO

[Rogi]

There's no such thing as 'Veto' in the Interim Accord either. According to the Interim Accord, Greece agrees not to object, regardless of whether others object or not, Greece is the one which as agreed not to object.

Macedonia will win this court case. But I don't see what the point of it is - all it does is cement 'FYROM' in even further.

Article 11 says,
1. Upon entry into force of this Interim Accord, The Party of the First Part agrees not to object to the application by or the membership of the Party of the Second Part in international, multilateral and regional organizations and institutions of which the Party of the First Part is a member

[Prolet]

Precisely Rogi

Thats exactly right, so they obstructed us into joining Nato. Rogi this is the best way to legally tear it up since Greece will not agree to allowing us into Nato and EU without a name change.

[Pelister]

Precisely Rogi

Thats exactly right, so they obstructed us into joining Nato. Rogi this is the best way to legally tear it up since Greece will not agree to allowing us into Nato and EU without a name change.

That is precisely correct guys.

1. I cannot for the life of me understand why they have gone to the ICJ to enforce an Accord that will admit Macedonia under the compromized name of FYROM.
2. And why they have been chasing this up at the ICJ, even though there is nothing the ICJ can do to force Greece to accept it. In which case they tare it up.

The Macedonian leadership (and UMD who have staunchly supported the entire process), must be pea-brains not only for supporting the Interim Accord in the first place, but this governments decision to have it enforced by the ICJ (a court with no jurisdiction outside the United Nations anyway).

The ICJ is really only effective within its jurisdiction, and that jurisdiction is within the United Nations organization and International Treaties on human rights and their obligations.

The Gruevski governmet should ...

1. Take Greece to the ICJ for failing to recognize the Macedonian minority within its borders?

2. Take the U.N to the ICJ which has violated its own articles in admitting Macedonia by the acronym FYROM ? And subsequently be reinstated by our Constitutional Name.

Then we might be getting somewhere.

[Vangelovski]

Prolet, are you insane? Macedonia is asking the ICJ to ENFORCE the agreement. That means that Macedonia is asking to get into NATO as FYROM and continue to abide by the terms of the Interim Accord. How on earth did you come up with the logic that by ENFORCING the Interim Accord, Macedonia would then go and “tear it up”??????

[Prolet]

Vangelovski, We have to enforce it if we want to join Nato and EU, once Greece rejects it then it becomes broken doesnt it??

Vangelovski, We take Greece to ICJ, We prove that they stopped us from entering an organization, they then dont comply with the order which will be for them not to stand in our way and they will stand in our way which means the accord is broken and we can change our flag back.

[Bratot]

VETO as an instrument doesn't exist even in NATO procedures, but it's obvious from the statements of the officials that the main reason for not accepting Macedonia in NATO was the name issue.

[Dimko-piperkata]

Greece probably to ask for non-legal agreement with Macedonia

20 January 2010 | 19:51 |

Skopje. Greece will not wait for the decision of the International Court of Justice in The Hague and will probably ask for non-legal resolution of the name dispute over violation of the temporal agreement, Macedonian A1 television informs. According to experts in the process Greece knows it can loose the case and thus to loose its authority.
“This means Greece would agree under conditions Macedonia to become NATO member state under the name of FYROM and the country to forfeit the process,” television noted.

http://www.focus-fen.net/index.php?id=n207375

actually not beliveable this news.

[Daskalot]

No veto in Bucharest, this is news to me.
So they choose to call it something else, but the net-result is the same, we were not made a part of NATO.

[Bratot]

It's all speculations.

I don't believe in a word said by A1.

[Bratot]

Exactly, in the manner of speaking the Greek official were those who constantly repeated VETO, VETO, VETO sta "Skopia".

So.. verbally they used the term VETO, but now technically it was a consensus, ..which in the both ways ended up with blockade for Macedonia.

[Phoenix]

Alternatives To (Full) NATO Membership

Can Macedonia seek a policy of military non-alignment, like Finland...?

http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/topics_49594.htm

Can this type of relationship, protect our identity while maintaining solid security ties with the allience in a similar fashion to the arrangement Finland enjoys with NATO...?

Currently Macedonia offers NATO our prime military assets (special forces), in return NATO membership will be at the expense of our identity, what if Macedonia took its trump cards off the table and 'reduced' its offer to NATO to something along the lines of purely 'peacekeeping' functions or training functions of foreign troops and police forces...?

"...Republic of Macedonia has substantially increased the forces it is prepared to make available to support NATO-led PfP operations. Units include a medium infantry battalion group, a specialist mountain/alpine section, a counter-terrorism team, a long-range reconnaissance company, military police units and other forces..."

http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/topics_48830.htm

[Risto the Great]

Excellent Phoenix, these are real options that Macedonia needs to consider rather than complete capitulation for nothing in return. As a simple matter of negotiation, this should be on the table immediately. The stakes would be raised immediately.

[Soldier of Macedon]

How do we get the Macedonian government thinking this way?

[Phoenix]

How do we get the Macedonian government thinking this way?

Think about it this way, the entire Balkan region has been savaged by wars for much of its history, imagine if one nation could finally say enough to this futility and in the modern period it has the maturity to seek non military alignment for its future, it doesn't mean that Macedonia abandons all security structures it just means that we will not knowingly put our head on the chopping block to be part of a group that admits in its own strategic papers that "...large scale conventional aggression against the Alliance is highly unlikely..."

http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/official_texts_27433.htm?selectedLocale=en

Paragraph #20

Why should we be held hostage to greece's paranioa, and enter an organization that is largely obsolete and lose our identity in the exchange, when we could 'work' with the same organization and enjoy the security that a limited membership offers, just as Finland and Ireland do.

Macedonia's special forces ability fills a niche role for NATO, our experiences in this area are well respected and thoroughly documented, equally Macedonia offers great potential for training security forces in a variety of unique landscapes and facilities, this is where Macedonia should be positioning themselves, not using these vital assets at the 'pointy end' of operations in the field for very little political return...

[Prolet]

We are slowly starting to wake up and see the real picture, if you recall what happened days before Bucharest in April 2008, we where told that we wouldnt exist if we dont join Nato however that wasnt the case. Keep in mind that we need a budget within itself, we have to spend millions of Dollars in fees each year and i think 3% of our budget has to go towards Nato missions, etc

Its not worth loosing our name and identity over thats for sure, now that the new laws on Lustration are taking place. The Anti-Macedonians in the media,Opposition and the Sorosoids are doing their very best to hide their past, their constant lies and scare campaigns are not working anymore. Once we bring our country in order we can then tackle our opponents who want to destroy us.