Macedonians Storm Parliament

[vicsinad]

Then why are we on this FORUM?. Your displaying apathy and already saying it's a forgone conclusion. EG you admit that Zaev is a traitor yet so is Gruo so it's ok.

Actually, I don't think it's a foregone conclusion. I'm just contributing my thoughts on a temporary fix to this current political mess.

Let me ask you why are you so keen to have Albanian as an official language in Gevgelija.?

I'm not.

And why does it upset you to partition macedonia?

If you can't provide a map, then perhaps you could provide a description of your new partitioned borders? You know, something like "west of Skopje and north of Lake Ohrid." I want to know how much property I'll inherit from my parents and in-laws in this "new Albania."

We don't even need Bulgaria or Greece to help initiate Macedonia's division, we have our own patriots who are willing to cut it in half all for the idea of a "chista Makedonija!"

I prefer Margilisation of these people so that they continue to emmigrate on mass.

History has shown how dangerous, irresponsible and counter-productive this would be.

[vicsinad]

[QUOTE=Albo;168166]

Albanians and Macedonians have lived side by side for centuries.. and will continue to do so... we need to move forward and deal with outstanding issues once and for all so they don't keep reoccurring all the time..

We do need to move forward, but the nationalists in your camp have provided a platform that is antagonistic toward Macedonians and exacerbates outstanding issues. There really is no need for Albanian to be an official language in the whole country. You'd probably see some Macedonians more sympathetic to supposed Albanian grievances if let's say Albanians in Macedonia were standing side-by-side with Macedonians demanding that the name does not change. Moving forward is a two-way street and the Albanian agenda is primarily concerned with only ethno-national Albanian issues.

[vicsinad]

I'm trying to find it in one of the videos, but I read that in one of the videos you can see a DUI member high-fiving one of the attackers. If anyone sees a high-five, let me know.

If true, that could just add more fuel to the likeliness that the violence was a creation of DUI and DPMNE. I know Gocka had mentioned that it wouldn't be surprising if DUI was involved.

[Albo]

Vic.. nobody knows the details on the new proposed law that was agreed to by vmro and sdsm during negotiations.. the devil is in the detail as they say..

I don't know how it can be worded to find some form of middle ground.. I don't think that Macedonians are ready to accept it throughout the country at this stage.. even tho it takes nothing away from Macedonian.. but anyway.. maybe a solution could be to lower the percentage of regions where it can become official to maybe 5% instead of 20% as is the case in Montenegro for example.. this will mean that places in the east won't need to impliment full bilingualism through the administration...but it will be granted in places like Ohrid,Krushevo,Resen, ect.. where there might be minimal requests for it..??

But I do believe there is no harm in having multilingual signs on national highways toll booths and border crossings ect.. it will show some form of give and take... I'm just trying to find some middle ground here..

But i assure you that the contents of the platform are not full blown nationalistic.. they are mostly within the spirit of the Ohrid Framework Agreement and require no constitutional amendments... there are plenty of European examples where bilingualism works fine.. without offense to any side...

But.. should the situation continue and get out of hand.. and more pressure is added from the outside.. and internal divisions increase in fear that the next platform will be more along nationalistic lines and not as inclusive as the current platform... most Albanains see the platform as weak... it has no time frame for implementation it doesn't demand much but says to debate or negotiate certain aspects... it's very vague and open to interpretation...

Something more extreme would be maybe the status of the Serbs in Kosovo... which would make the current platform seem as a non issue...

One only needs to read many of the above posts on how people believe that marginalization of the Albanians is the way forward.. this is seriously not the way forward and those who believe that it's possible don't really know the situation on the ground.. especially in Albanian majority regions...

[Albo]

As for the name issue.. we have stood side by side... since Independence.. no ultimatum has ever been given that eg. We won't enter a coalition if the name isn't changed.ect ect...

But patients is wearing thin.. unfortunately you can't expect the Albanians to be more against a name change than possible NATO membership Security ..it's just something that in the eyes of the Albanains seems a no brainer ... Albanain parties have largely allowed Macedonians to negotiate on the name issue without any major involvement... non NATO membership is a major part of the current crisis indirectly

[Solun]

I read the other day 450 leave daily.. this is something that needs to stop.. or else it's all for nothing if not for the people..

Proportionally my thoughts are that at least half of those that leave daily are Albanian. Plenty of nice big houses in Albanian villages throughout Western Macedonia that would not be inhabited if expatriates didn't come back for the summer from Western Europe.
It's one of the reasons Ahmeti and co keep calling off the census, as they say it must occur during the height of summer. They realise if there was a census today they wouldn't get 20%.
Surely there would not be another case worldwide of a minority under 20% creating a bi-national state

[vicsinad]

As for the name issue.. we have stood side by side... since Independence.. no ultimatum has ever been given that eg. We won't enter a coalition if the name isn't changed.ect ect...

But patients is wearing thin.. unfortunately you can't expect the Albanians to be more against a name change than possible NATO membership Security ..it's just something that in the eyes of the Albanains seems a no brainer ... Albanain parties have largely allowed Macedonians to negotiate on the name issue without any major involvement... non NATO membership is a major part of the current crisis indirectly

Would you have traded in the name "Albania" for NATO or EU membership? I doubt it.

Albanians as a group are a minority...they don't get to "allow" the majority what to and what to not do.

[Risto the Great]

Just a heads up, Albo, the Ohrid agreement is the worst thing to happen to the Republic of Macedonia. It is unprecedented and a fatal blow to the sovereignty of the homeland of Macedonians.

[vicsinad]

[QUOTE=Albo;168175]

I don't know how it can be worded to find some form of middle ground.. I don't think that Macedonians are ready to accept it throughout the country at this stage.. even tho it takes nothing away from Macedonian.. but anyway.. maybe a solution could be to lower the percentage of regions where it can become official to maybe 5% instead of 20% as is the case in Montenegro for example.. this will mean that places in the east won't need to impliment full bilingualism through the administration...but it will be granted in places like Ohrid,Krushevo,Resen, ect.. where there might be minimal requests for it..??

Why can't and won't Albanians learn Macedonian for official and societal purposes? Why can't they just accept Macedonian? Learning to speak and using Macedonian for societal and government purposes does not threaten the Albanian identity or culture. So why?

Why should 5%, or 20%, of the people's desires be put on par with the 95% or 80% of the other peoples? That's not democracy.

[Karposh]

And why does it upset you to partition macedonia? Are you preferring a Kosovo or Agean Macedonia type scenario?

Pelagonija, you mentioned partitioning Macedonia a couple of times now. The first time, I figured you were just being deliberately provocative to make the point regarding our people's inept capacity to hang on to their achieved statehood. Lyubcho Georgievski was promoting this as an option too. I was left speechless then and now you too have left me scratching my head. Are we that fickle that we should ever entertain such ideas? No one wants to live side by side with the shiptari (despite the bullshit propaganda regarding the generations of good will between the two groups) but that is not a legitimate reason to abandon your house to the shiptar squatters. 200 years of shiptar squatting in western Macedonia is one thing but willingly relinquishing control of the most beautiful part of Macedonia should never even enter the mind of a Macedonian. I disagree with you completely on this issue and I hope you can see the error in your line of thinking - there is nothing left to partition.

[DraganOfStip]

Facebook video posted by DPMNE MP Ljupco Dimovski shows DPMNE members cheering, shaking hands and hugging the people that stormed the parliament:

https://www.facebook.com/100007895680639/videos/1927473194192518/

And DPMNE Minister of Culture Elizabeta Kamcevska-Milevska is captured hugging one of the masked bullies:


Also, the MOI confirmed that one of the arrested people for the violence is employed in MOI's State Security Service:

http://telma.com.mk/vesti/vraboten-vo-ubk-na-mvr-megju-5-te-privedeni-za-nasilstvata-vo-sobranieto

Even more evidence that this was organized and supported by DPMNE.

[vicsinad]

Apparently, it was DUI Albanians who beat up Zijadin Sela.

[mklion]

Apparently, it was DUI Albanians who beat up Zijadin Sela.

Any source to confirm?

[vicsinad]

Any source to confirm?

I don't have a source. Word of mouth from Macedonia.



Here is video of Ibrahimi singing the Albanian anthem in Macedonian parliament:

http://english.republika.mk/from-the-rostrum-of-the-macedonian-assembly-ibrahimi-called-for-armed-struggle-for-the-motherland-albania-albanian-anthem-video/

[vicsinad]

Three of the people who physically attacked the MPs:

1. Dimche Hristoski, who was convicted for two murders in 2005.
2. Initials I.J. (the guy with the HOS shirt): has been convicted of rape, murder and assault.
3. Initials M.N.: three prior prison convictions, drugs, assault and another.

Not quite clear how/when these people were released from jail.