Macedonians Storm Parliament

[Soldier of Macedon]

Can anyone logically tell me why we even left Yugoslavia? If our people are so incompetent and have a government which they deserve then why not just;

1- Partition Macedonia on Ethnic lines and make a mini ethnically clean state.
Or
2- Merge with Serbia or Bulgaria? Keep our christian culture.

The Macedonian people shed a lot of blood throughout history to obtain self-rule on their historical territory. No sane Macedonian should ever support unification with any other country again. Ever.

I really find it difficult to understand just how ethnic identity..something that is personal can be effected or altered by the name of the country you live in

That's because you're an apologetic moron who can't bring himself to look at the situation logically.

[Soldier of Macedon]

I disagree. I think many people here think Gruevski is the lesser evil who draws the line at selling out the country.

The 'protector' of national sovereignty and 'lesser evil' are hardly the same thing. Define "selling out the country".

[tchaiku]

SoM:

My mistake: it was a neo-nazi Croatian party shirt:

https://twitter.com/search?f=tweets&q=macedonia%20hos&src=typd

I think it shows, rather, that these are more than just "concerned citizens" but rather deeply connected individuals and potentially paid goons.

The odds are he didn't know how Croatia's flag looks like. Unless he is Croat himself, otherwise what is he doing there?

So ... this is how the patriot looks like.

[vicsinad]

Do you think he would've gained the additional seats from the ethnic Albanian parties if he hadn't already accepted the Tirana Platform?

Has Zaev accepted the Tirana Platform? The only thing I've heard are reports that he said he's willing to discuss certain aspects of it. One may say that's treasonous, but promising to discuss and promising to implement and actually implementing are three different things. We know Zaev isn't the person for the job and neither is Gruevski. But through all of this, no legitimate third option has sprouted. The people voted and SDSM formed a coalition but Ivanov wouldn't give SDSM the mandate out of a fake concern for the Tirana Platform and a real concern that there'd be no amnesty for the DPMNE cronies. So in the absence of a genuine Macedonian movement, what does Macedonia do? Stay as is? Or take a risk moving in a certain direction? Because what we're seeing is not healthy and will run Macedonia into the ground before any of the Tirana Platfrom issues find their way into any sort of legislation.

The Tirana Platform is essentially the next phase of the already ongoing 'Albanianisation' which has taken place under Gruevski. What makes you think these tens of thousands will do something after Zaev comes to power if they haven't done anything up until now?

Based on the storming of the parliament (not the goons' actions of beating up the politicians) because SDSM held the vote to elect the Albanian speaker, I'd say that's warning enough to Zaev that if he does implement adding Albanian as a second official language or changing the name, the people would rise up.

Whilst both are issues that need to be dealt with, at this moment, do you feel it is more important to put potentially corrupt politicians on trial or to stop the further erosion of our national sovereignty? Which of the two is the more pressing issue?

They are inseparable -- the corruption and incompetence and economic stagnation has allowed ethnic tensions to fester and has jeopardized Macedonia's national sovereignty. Sure, the Albanian nationalist movement is to blame for their destructive agenda, but a competent government without corrupt institutions would have been able to deal with the threat. Continuing to let Gruevski and Ahmeti keep Macedonia de facto divided in their separate spheres of control is truly jeopardizing Macedonia's sovereignty. Dpmne and Dui are essentially organized criminal enterprises and they are fake nationalist (where as SDSM don't pretend to be nationalists) and they want nothing more then to keep their control.

Unfortunately, the people have not elected a worthwhile third party candidate to lead and there hasn't been a movement of Macedonians that incorporates Macedonians across the board. So, as of these recent elections, we're stuck with two candidates: Gruevski or Zaev. Regarding Zaev's actions of being willing to accept potentially getting killed to get into power, I see two options: he's hell-bent on risking his life to get into power; or he is ideologically attached to his genuine convictions so much that it's worth the risk. If he was solely hell-bent on getting power, however, he would have offered Gruevski amnesty and he'd be PM by now (unless some western power urged him to not give Gruevski amnesty). So I think it's some combination of the two, and no doubt that he's utilizing western support for this purpose. The question really is what did he promise the West for its support and is he willing to fulfill those promises?

If he's in power, he's either going to F up pretty bad and the power will be taken for him; or he won't and the country will get better. With Gruevski, we know -- as evidenced of the past decade -- that it's only been going in one direction: F'd up pretty bad. Macedonia is headed down the drain now, and with Zaev in power we're either continuing to go down the drain or will go up the drain. In the meantime, at least there's a potential for the storm to quiet and for either DPMNE to cleanse itself of much of its destructive tendencies or for a new movement to sprout.

More likely, though, if Zaev is in power, as stated previously, his reign will only last a few months based on the way current things are going. I don't support Zaev, but I think giving SDSM the reigns and let it run a natural demise, as Gocka has said, which avoids violence and bloodshed is better than the current course.

You really have it in for this guy with the HOS shirt, lol. He could just be a Macedonian with some Croatian ancestry. Anyway, what is your issue with the "Vlado Chernozemski" club?

Along with the fact that the HOS shirt guy was in a picture being buddy-buddy with Gruevski from like 8 years ago, it's more evidence that they are a bunch of right-wing DPMNE associates and that they weren't part of the "enlightened Macedonians" who wanted to see some sort of real change. They are a bunch of guys who want to hurt somebody and break something. But we shouldn't also ignore that, despite being Macedonian, Vlado Chrenozemski is not associated with moderate or left-wing Macedonians. He's associated with the Vancho Mihajlov and ustashe, and all the facts together (including the way these guys present themselves) just prove these are not your typical Macedonians coming out to reclaim government for themselves.

[Gocka]

The third option hasn't presented itself yet, that is why patience and level heads are needed. This needs to play out, Zaev needs to make the mistakes first, then his own supporter can judge.

It is a golden opportunity, but where is the third option?

You couldn't possibly know the level of outrage sitting thousands of miles away. You don't know what conversations are being had around the kitchen table. What it will take is patience and time, then I am confident you will see the will of the people one way or another. Why is everyone so sure Grujo and DPMNE wouldn't or didn't promise the same things to the Albanians? Who would be the lesser of two evil then, Zaev?

What will it take for them to be outraged?

It's not rubbish when you tell them to do one thing one week then change your mind the next. You yourself would be guilty of being full of shit, if you now believe that Grujo is he lesser of two evils because not to long ago you didn't believe that. Most of us, including you have been telling Macedonians to stop falling for the partisan politics and the faux "patriots" of DPMNE, now you think their faux patriotism is less dangerous then having none. In the end they both equal 0 don't they? So why the sudden shift?

Also how is it misleading, the majority of members apart from what looks like me, Vic and RTG, approve of what happened and believe it was a legitimate mini peoples revolt. Most of you are going around saying DPMNE is the lesser of two evils. In this moment of crisis, you want them to come back to power to "save" Macedonia from Zaev, so tell me again how it is misleading that you guys want them to be your saviors, when that is exactly what you are calling for?

I still cant understated how anyone can say with a straight face that Grujo is the lesser of two evils when there are literally thousands of posts here dedicated to the Albaniziation under his rule, financial corruption, political corruption, etc etc. You are all kidding yourselves if you believe DPMNE didn't also accept the Tirana platform to stay in power. The only reason the Albanians rejected DPMNE is because there was too much pressure in the Albanian community about the scandals and the SPO.

I still have just one question, if DPMNE accepted the same demands, who would be your lesser of two evils? Who would you look to then?

Your first sentence is a load of rubbish and an echo of some people from Macedonia (and elsewhere, it would seem) who think we don't have the right to speak our minds on issues that clearly have an impact on all Macedonians across the world. Your second sentence is blatantly misleading, as nobody here is suggesting that Gruevski is the protector of national sovereignty in Macedonia.

[Philosopher]

Has anyone considered the possibility that this was a false flag? A planned and staged provocateur?

American Ambassador to the country Jess Baily coordinated the failed coup in Macedonian Parliament on April 27. Skopje media reports the saboteur brought in fully armed marines to protect his residence at 3:00pm before the coup took place at 6:20pm. The official explanation was that it was a coincidence on the same day Jess Baily called in for exercise to protect his residence.

http://macedoniaonline.eu/content/view/31973/1/

Even if the above is fake news, I still would not rule out the possibility.

When I first read about Macedonians storming the parliament, the thought occurred to me that this may have been a false flag.

It is healthy speculation.

For the record, I do not support either party.

[Gocka]

Is there ever an event that is not a potential false flag? I feel like that sort of assumption can be made about just about anything. If there is never any proof even circumstantial, then why would we even waist time to speculate about it? I could also say, well its possible aliens mind controlled the protesters into acting violently, I have no evidence that it happened, but there's no evidence that it didn't either right?

The obvious and most likely reason is that like in every mob, there are always a few loose bolts that just want to break something.

QUOTE=Philosopher;168151]Has anyone considered the possibility that this was a false flag? A planned and staged provocateur?

http://macedoniaonline.eu/content/view/31973/1/

Even if the above is fake news, I still would not rule out the possibility.

When I first read about Macedonians storming the parliament, the thought occurred to me that this may have been a false flag.

It is healthy speculation.

For the record, I do not support either party.[/QUOTE]

[Risto the Great]

Define "selling out the country".

I think it's already sold, but I believe many of the DPmNE fans think selling out equates to changing the name and they do not believe DPmNE is willing to go that far.

[Bill77]

Lol..... Vic is hinting Macedonians should give Zaev a chance in order to find out if he would implement the Tirana Platform

What could possibly go wrong.....

This suggestion is akin to Nancy Pelosi statement
"We have to pass the Bill so that you can find out what is in it"

[Bill77]

Accurate

The Tirana Platform is essentially the next phase of the already ongoing 'Albanianisation' which has taken place under Gruevski.

No sane Macedonian can deny Gruevski led government plays a major part in these current circumstances.

But I will add this as well. Reading some of the comments In here and many social media sites...... "Those Macedonian citizens should not have stormed the parliament.....those that stormed the Parliament are Hypocrites as Xhaferi was previously elected by vmro as defence minister"

Is not a fucking argument....... Two wrongs don't make it right. What is the opposite to this? The opposite to this is not storming the parliament on the basis, "well it wasn't done during Xhaferi election of defence minister"..... That is purely insane.

And what else is insane, is suggestion made in here the election of this terrorist was purely the cause by these hypocrites for storming the parliament. Nonsense...... There has been weeks of protests leading up to this event, by the diaspora in major cities around the world, daily gatherings in protests on the streets of Macedonia...... And all these protests was purely against the Tirana platform. The actual swearing in of Xhaferi and reports of Albanian national anthem being sung was a just the trigger.

Finally ..... This is more a question.
Zaev might not have broken any laws by trying to form a government. But what laws has Ivanov broken for refusing to approve the formation of a new Zaev led government on the proviso there is guarantee the Tirana platform does not get implemented which drastically effect the constitution? Does he as a President have powers to protect the constitution?

[vicsinad]

Lol..... Vic is hinting Macedonians should give Zaev a chance in order to find out if he would implement the Tirana Platform

What could possibly go wrong.....

This suggestion is akin to Nancy Pelosi statement
"We have to pass the Bill so that you can find out what is in it"

I am for the solution that I believed many here support -- a separate and genuine Macedonian movement that counters the fake patriotism of Dpmne and the non-patriotism of Sdsm. In the absence of that movement and in hopes that Macedonia doesn't dissolve into directionless violence, I would hope to see Zaev offer amnesty to Gruevski, let Sdsm form their coalition, and then hope that a Macedonian movement is born in reaction to a likely failure on Zaev's part.

The other realistic options will be either a reemergence of a Dpmne-dui coalition, which will continue the downward spiral and probably hinder a meaningful Macedonian movement from developing; or a war between Macedonians and Albanians, and potentially between Macedonians, of which either will accomplish less than diplomatic and political methods.

I think the current situation warrants careful political maneuvering if Macedonians are going to come out on the other end relatively undamaged.

[vicsinad]

Accurate



No sane Macedonian can deny Gruevski led government plays a major part in these current circumstances.

But I will add this as well. Reading some of the comments In here and many social media sites...... "Those Macedonian citizens should not have stormed the parliament.....those that stormed the Parliament are Hypocrites as Xhaferi was previously elected by vmro as defence minister"

Is not a fucking argument....... Two wrongs don't make it right. What is the opposite to this? The opposite to this is not storming the parliament on the basis, "well it wasn't done during Xhaferi election of defence minister"..... That is purely insane.

And what else is insane, is suggestion made in here the election of this terrorist was purely the cause by these hypocrites for storming the parliament. Nonsense...... There has been weeks of protests leading up to this event, by the diaspora in major cities around the world, daily gatherings in protests on the streets of Macedonia...... And all these protests was purely against the Tirana platform. The actual swearing in of Xhaferi and reports of Albanian national anthem being sung was a just the trigger.

Finally ..... This is more a question.
Zaev might not have broken any laws by trying to form a government. But what laws has Ivanov broken for refusing to approve the formation of a new Zaev led government on the proviso there is guarantee the Tirana platform does not get implemented which drastically effect the constitution? Does he as a President have powers to protect the constitution?

The storming of the parliament was one thing; but the attack on the politicians was almost very likely a message from the top Dpmne brass, particularly if you consider who was targeted, who wasn't targeted, the inaction of police, who was involved in the attacks, etc.

Ivanov should protect the constitution. But he made a fatal mistake when he didn't force Dpmne to reject the Tirana platform before giving them a mandate. He only held sdsm to that standard after Gruevski failed to form a coalition. This shows that it was not a constitutional issue for ivanov but rather a political one.

[Albo]

Ivanov should protect the constitution. But he made a fatal mistake when he didn't force Dpmne to reject the Tirana platform before giving them a mandate. He only held sdsm to that standard after Gruevski failed to form a coalition. This shows that it was not a constitutional issue for ivanov but rather a political one.

Absolutely correct... it's as clear as day that this has nothing to do with the actual platform or Talat Xhaferri or that wannabe hero wanker from BESA who sang the national anthem (and got the lyrics wrong)

It's the simple fact that they tried to move the process forward.. regardless of how who when what.. they had a plan should the majority attempt to elect a new speaker.. and they executed it .. and if it wasn't for those 2-3 bodyguards on the front line.. we would have dead deputies today and things would probably be beyond repair...

PEOPLE THE PLATFORM IS MOSTLY THE OHRID AGREEMENT REWORDED AND SEXED UP.. IT IS NO THREAT.. DON'T FALL FOR THE FEAR MONGERING..

Albanians and Macedonians have lived side by side for centuries.. and will continue to do so... we need to move forward and deal with outstanding issues once and for all so they don't keep reoccurring all the time..

Both sides have legitimate wants and fears that need to be debated and confidence built so people can have a little hope and normality.. if this continues there will be hardly any people left in the country...I read the other day 450 leave daily.. this is something that needs to stop.. or else it's all for nothing if not for the people..

[Phoenix]

Lol..... Vic is hinting Macedonians should give Zaev a chance in order to find out if he would implement the Tirana Platform

What could possibly go wrong.....

This suggestion is akin to Nancy Pelosi statement
"We have to pass the Bill so that you can find out what is in it"

It's like putting faith into Michael Jackson to chaperone a hollywood child-actors sleep over at the Neverland Ranch...

What could possibly go wrong.....

BTW...welcome back Billy

[Pelagonija]

Show me a map where Albanians aren't in this "new" Macedonia of yours and Macedonians aren't left in new Albanian lands without having to be forced out.

You're calling Zaev the traitor -- which he very well may be -- but you're the one suggesting we should cut Macedonia into pieces, as if that hasn't already happened.

Ironic. I can't believe this passes with so little scrutiny on this forum.

Then why are we on this FORUM?. Your displaying apathy and already saying it's a forgone conclusion. EG you admit that Zaev is a traitor yet so is Gruo so it's ok.

All I'm saying is Zaev will provide an advanced and accelerated version of this process.

Let me ask you why are you so keen to have Albanian as an official language in Gevgelija.?

And why does it upset you to partition macedonia? Are you preferring a Kosovo or Agean Macedonia type scenario?

I prefer Margilisation of these people so that they continue to emmigrate on mass. They have end goal and they won't stop until they achieve this objective.. But it's Gruos fault so it's ok and let's take it to the next level!?