Macedonians Storm Parliament

[Solun]

I've seen various media comments with regard the regular sight of DUI, DPA, BESA political leaders meeting with Greek diplomats in Skopje's restaurants. I would go so far as to say greater support for the Tirana platform (both expert and financial support) comes from Athens rather than Tirana itself.

[Amphipolis]

I really find it difficult to understand just how ethnic identity..something that is personal can be effected or altered by the name of the country you live in!

You've got to be kidding!

[Phoenix]

Ah, so you're just another of those "if you're not with us - you're against us" people, e.g. if someone criticizes Grujo he's a "komunjar" by default, and if someone criticizes Zajko he's "VMROvec"...
One can't express a critic to someone without getting labeled as belonging to the "other camp".
See, that is exactly what's been holding us down all this time...

Now, who's making assumptions...?

[vicsinad]

http://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blo...isclose-soros#

All this is a battle between the gay liberal left and right..

Both are corrupt yet the fact is the right is closer to ones nationalistic tendencies. History, what has the left given us? EU, multiculturalism, communism, marriage equality and the end of moral values, but hey it's ok.. they have made us fight over nothing and the albs will be the winners

The left gave us the VMRO movement of the 1890s and 1900s -- whose ideas of socialism and multiculturalism would probably have you shitting in your pants if you feel that strongly about it. Time to put away those icons of Delchev, Sandanski and Gruev, who were bigger socialists than Bernie Sanders. The right gave us Vancho Mihajlov in the 1920s and 30s. The left gave us the Partizan movement in WW2 and in the Greek Civil War. The left gave us a "nation" with their demands for Macedonian language and identity and nation to be recognized. The right gave us the "Ljubcho Georgievski mentality" that we are really just Bulgarians.

So I don't buy that line of reasoning that the right is closer to nationalistic thinking. Don't try to purport that the right are closer to being nationalistic because they Grujo talks about how he hates Albanians and then is dividing de facto control of Macedonia with Ahmeti behind closed doors.

[vicsinad]

*PREDICTION*
So you guys can argue all you like about Grujo and blow rays of sunshine up Zajko's arse, but those of you who support Zaev will have to live with the fact that he was the one who wiped the Macedonian's off the face of the earth...you too will be able to rejoice like the natives of the 'new world' when they were offered worthless, shiny beads, in exchange for large swathes of farming land by their colonial overlords...

You must have absolutely no faith in the Macedonian people if you believe that one man can determine Macedonia's destiny. If Macedonians react this way because Parliament appointed a former DPMNE-DUI defense minister as speaker, than imagine how they'd react if Zaev tried to trade the name? If they do react, then the people would finally have united. If not, then they don't deserve a country.

What I'm hearing from you is that Macedonians don't deserve a democracy.

The Turks and Serbs and Greeks didn't wipe us off the face of the Earth, but Zaev will? I understand why people don't want Zaev and why he is not good for Macedonia, but I don't understand the excessive fear mongering.

[vicsinad]

I've seen various media comments with regard the regular sight of DUI, DPA, BESA political leaders meeting with Greek diplomats in Skopje's restaurants. I would go so far as to say greater support for the Tirana platform (both expert and financial support) comes from Athens rather than Tirana itself.

Wouldn't surprise me. Nothing that Greece would want more than for Macedonia to not exist.

[vicsinad]

The apathy on this forum is rather disappointing. It seems that the Macedonian people are resigned to the the fact Macedonia will become a Federal state and Macedonians as a people will continue to lose control of more lands to the egg heads.

Can anyone logically tell me why we even left Yugoslavia? If our people are so incompetent and have a government which they deserve then why not just;

1- Partition Macedonia on Ethnic lines and make a mini ethnically clean state.
Or
2- Merge with Serbia or Bulgaria? Keep our christian culture.

FFS the US are even having congressional discussions regarding money spent and interference in Macedonia.. but hey it's ok let's accept it as Gruo is just as bad.

Not sure what this triggered this artificial crisis, though I can assure you Gruo must have pissed off his western overlords by siding with Russia on what ever reason.. whether that was not supporting sanctions against Russia or whatever. ZZ and Gruo are both farked and corrupted hence makes no logic.

Macedonians are truly the dumbest people. And sorry if I offended anyone re merger with RS of BG, I know how TITO taught our parents hatred against our neighbours for expansionist purposes..

Bloody bizzare it's ok we merge with the Albanians.

1. You can't divide Macedonian on ethnic lines. Why would we want that, anyway?

2. Join with Serbia? Here's a Macedonian's response to Vojislav Seslj suggesting that a "velika Srbija" is better for Macedonians than a "velika Albanija."

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C-koYIhXgAAoOqX.jpg

[Phoenix]

You must have absolutely no faith in the Macedonian people if you believe that one man can determine Macedonia's destiny. If Macedonians react this way because Parliament appointed a former DPMNE-DUI defense minister as speaker, than imagine how they'd react if Zaev tried to trade the name? If they do react, then the people would finally have united. If not, then they don't deserve a country.

What I'm hearing from you is that Macedonians don't deserve a democracy.

The Turks and Serbs and Greeks didn't wipe us off the face of the Earth, but Zaev will? I understand why people don't want Zaev and why he is not good for Macedonia, but I don't understand the excessive fear mongering.

Don't you find it odd that Zaev has full support from the US and EU...don't you find it odd that nobody from the western powers condemned Rama's meddling in Macedonia...don't you find it odd that the West hasn't condemned what has been a coup in Macedonia.

You're right, I don't have any confidence in at least 50% of Macedonian citizens...50% will gladly sell, their grandmother, mother and first born if they thought that changing the name would get them into the EU.

I hope I'm wrong.

[Pelagonija]

1. You can't divide Macedonian on ethnic lines. Why would we want that, anyway?

2. Join with Serbia? Here's a Macedonian's response to Vojislav Seslj suggesting that a "velika Srbija" is better for Macedonians than a "velika Albanija."

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C-koYIhXgAAoOqX.jpg

Why would we not want partition you ask? Maybe so we don't end up in Vardar like the macos in the Aegean or the Serbs in Kosovo.

The Albanians are metaphorically a cancer in ROM, with cancer you either fight it or cut it out??

We may not like the Albanians though they hate us.. that's the difference..

[Pelagonija]

You must have absolutely no faith in the Macedonian people if you believe that one man can determine Macedonia's destiny. If Macedonians react this way because Parliament appointed a former DPMNE-DUI defense minister as speaker, than imagine how they'd react if Zaev tried to trade the name? If they do react, then the people would finally have united. If not, then they don't deserve a country.

What I'm hearing from you is that Macedonians don't deserve a democracy.

The Turks and Serbs and Greeks didn't wipe us off the face of the Earth, but Zaev will? I understand why people don't want Zaev and why he is not good for Macedonia, but I don't understand the excessive fear mongering.

Why the fear mongering? Maybe perhaps he was taking a euro for Vice? Maybe because he didn't release recordings of DUI? Maybe because he wants to eat raw people and not cooked? Maybe because he comes across mentally unstable? Maybe because he was patting the head chopper Talat in the ass.. maybe because he went to Switzerland in order to entertain the Albanians? Maybe because he is a version of Gruo on steroids.

[vicsinad]

Why would we not want partition you ask? Maybe so we don't end up in Vardar like the macos in the Aegean or the Serbs in Kosovo.

The Albanians are metaphorically a cancer in ROM, with cancer you either fight it or cut it out??

We may not like the Albanians though they hate us.. that's the difference..

Show me a map where Albanians aren't in this "new" Macedonia of yours and Macedonians aren't left in new Albanian lands without having to be forced out.

You're calling Zaev the traitor -- which he very well may be -- but you're the one suggesting we should cut Macedonia into pieces, as if that hasn't already happened.

Ironic. I can't believe this passes with so little scrutiny on this forum.

[DraganOfStip]

Now, who's making assumptions...?

Well this assumption is based on your comment that you had sense I was "more Zaev than Grujo".
If there are other reasons why you presumed that other than what I assumed then please tell me so that I can stop leaving that sense to people.

[Gocka]

I am very proud of you Dragan. You have matured a lot and this answer below is proof of that. My hope is that you can share the wisdom you have obtained and help other Macedonians realize that for the last 20 years everything has been their own doing and that it is up to them to fix it. Once enough Macedonians realize this, Macedonia will finally be free.

Whichever the outcome, knowing the Macedonians we will end up with a government led by either DPMNE or SDSM, which is practically the same thing. Macedonia is doomed either way, and Macedonians (and Macedonians only) are to blame. It's not Russia, or USA or the EU, we are the only culprits for our situation. We have the democratic power to change that ,but we won't. The last elections where despite all wrongdoings saw DPMNE and SDSM mass up 75% of all votes shows we have learned nothing. We deserve everything that's happening to us.

Phoinex,

I understand the sense of urgency and disgust at what SDSM are attempting, and I know how much you love the western meddlers, but I think you have to accept that you can not make a country sovereign by force. Freedom and sovereignty exits in peoples minds and hearts, not on paper. Macedonians regardless of who is the leader at the moment, are not awaken to fact that the future is in their hands, and they will live in whatever kind of country they choose to. Like Vic so intelligently put, one man can't define a nation. Zaev or the west can not wipe Macedonia off the map, only Macedonians can do that.

Macedonia has never struggled with the outside, we like to pretend that it was always the Greeks, or Bulgars or today the Albanians, the struggle has always been internal. Macedonians have always been pitted against each other, and that is why everyone manipulates us. It is not different today. You want to frame this as Macedonians vs Albanians, west vs east. It's not, its still SDSM vs DPMNE, komunjari vs vmrovci. This is how people in Macedonia see it.

Like I said before, its in these times of crisis that you need to be most stubborn and have a clear moral stance. Because if you cave and let your emotions take over, all you will do is help perpetuate what has been a death spiral since day one. This is a golden opportunity to use the anger use the revolt to push people away from both parties. I am confident that the traitor Zaev, along with the other traitor Gruevski will face justice at some point, but for now Zaev needs to run his course naturally. If you take him down by force through a small minority, all you do is drive a wedge between Macedonians of one party affiliation and the other. His own supporters will turn on him in due time, but that has to play out naturally, regardless of the short term consequences.

Pieces of paper can be signed, and they can be ripped up, whats more important is that Macedonians find a path to unification, and when the time comes, take down the government together. Only then can we transcend the death spiral. The Albanians , the name issues, those are problems only because Macedonians are not unified and do not have true patriotic leaders. For to long we have been treating symptoms, its time we address the disease.

We can start that process by not pitting ourselves against each other and stop labeling and judging Macedonians. Trust me, very few Macedonians are okay with what Zaev is doing, but when you come at them guns blazing, you push them right back into the arms of these traitors. Finally the last thing you want is to push people back into the arms of Gruevski who has caused much more damage then Zaev has (yet). What does it do for the long term health of Macedonia if Gruevski gets back into power with a stronger hand?

[Soldier of Macedon]

If Zaev came to power, and openly accepted the Tirana Platform....

Do you think he would've gained the additional seats from the ethnic Albanian parties if he hadn't already accepted the Tirana Platform?

......you likely would have tens of thousands of Macedonians doing this to parliament...

The Tirana Platform is essentially the next phase of the already ongoing 'Albanianisation' which has taken place under Gruevski. What makes you think these tens of thousands will do something after Zaev comes to power if they haven't done anything up until now?

Gruevski knows this, but he also knows that in the few months Zaev would be in power, he and his corrupt cronies would be put on trial. Thus, he's stalling for new elections to get a few more votes so he can again join DUI in ruling Macedonia.

Whilst both are issues that need to be dealt with, at this moment, do you feel it is more important to put potentially corrupt politicians on trial or to stop the further erosion of our national sovereignty? Which of the two is the more pressing issue?

Looks like the HOS-shirt guy is associated with the brilliant and admirable "Vlado Chernozemski" club.

You really have it in for this guy with the HOS shirt, lol. He could just be a Macedonian with some Croatian ancestry. Anyway, what is your issue with the "Vlado Chernozemski" club?

This is a golden opportunity to throw in a third option.

It is a golden opportunity, but where is the third option?

You want a better Macedonia, you need SDSM voters to be just as outraged as everyone else. Then you storm the parliament together.

What will it take for them to be outraged?

Then people wonder why the diaspora has no credibility, I'll tell you why, because its collectively full of shit. Last month we would have loved to hang Grujo, now I'm supposed to pretend that he is going to be the protector of democracy and sovereignty in Macedonia?

Your first sentence is a load of rubbish and an echo of some people from Macedonia (and elsewhere, it would seem) who think we don't have the right to speak our minds on issues that clearly have an impact on all Macedonians across the world. Your second sentence is blatantly misleading, as nobody here is suggesting that Gruevski is the protector of national sovereignty in Macedonia.

[Risto the Great]

as nobody here is suggesting that Gruevski is the protector of national sovereignty in Macedonia.

I disagree. I think many people here think Gruevski is the lesser evil who draws the line at selling out the country.