Macedonians Storm Parliament

[Pelagonija]

If that's true that's heart breaking stuff.. that brings tears to my eyes..

[Phoenix]

Just out of curiosity, does anyone think storming parliament actually helped this band of gypsies take over?

Not in the fuckin' slightest...

I take particular offence to using that turn of phrase...a true "storming of parliament" would have seen the place turned upside down and eventually burnt to the ground and treasonous politicians would be hanging from the rafters like Christmas decorations, whilst the biggest sellouts would've been gutted like fish...what we witnessed wasn't so much a 'storm' but a zephyr, a couple of farts would've come closer to registering as the winds of change.

At the end of the day, it's just the inevitable march of the Macedonian lemming toward oblivion.

Complete and absolute apathy, indifference and chronic myopia has brought the lemmings to this point...there is no turning back from here.

[Pelagonija]

Whilst the attack on parliament didn't have positive consequences for the pro Macedonia camp. Radicalisation and increased violence against any Macedonian traitors would definitely have positive consequences for the Macedonian cause. As long as Macedonians are passive, the politicians will know this and continue to behave in the manner which they do. So they got slapped? the status quo continues.

This is why the western governments loves peddling liberal left capitalist ideas in order to control the masses, rendering people incapable of rebelling or pushing for change. Look at Australia, mass immigration, selling lands to foreigners, exporting jobs, privatising national resources, invading countries on lies, supporting dictatorships such as Saudi Arabia. You turn on the Tele or you see is politicians debating gay marriage and minimisation of religious institutions. If this was 30 years ago the joint would have got blown up..

Point is, no radicalisation = no change, same logic in ROM and Australia.

[Gocka]

Agreed,

What I meant was that the actions that were taken would help SDS come to power.

A true "storming" I think is impossible at this point. A true storming of the parliament requires much more then a bit of rage. It requires a purpose, a vision, determination to achieve a goal. Macedonians look like fish out of water, I think a part of their brains and souls knows what is going on is wrong but they lack the experience and frankly the courage, to really attempt a radical change. That is the main reason I was so against what I saw that day, because I knew, the country lacked the true mindset to actually accomplish something.

Even if that handful of "protesters" what ever you want to call them, even if they were 100x more violent, even if they managed to kill corrupt politicians, what then? Most of the country still doesn't understand basic concepts of democracy, freedom, self determination, sovereignty, rule of law, patriotism, nationalism, etc. That violent outburst, needs to happen after the majority of people understand these issues and the only thing standing in their way are the politicians. Then you storm. Otherwise, all you are doing is venting.

The politicians are not the problem, it is the ignorant, apathetic, and subservient population that is. If the populace wasn't those things, I am confident the politicians would fear the people, and would either not be a problem, or get out of the way willingly.

Not in the fuckin' slightest...

I take particular offence to using that turn of phrase...a true "storming of parliament" would have seen the place turned upside down and eventually burnt to the ground and treasonous politicians would be hanging from the rafters like Christmas decorations, whilst the biggest sellouts would've been gutted like fish...what we witnessed wasn't so much a 'storm' but a zephyr, a couple of farts would've come closer to registering as the winds of change.

At the end of the day, it's just the inevitable march of the Macedonian lemming toward oblivion.

Complete and absolute apathy, indifference and chronic myopia has brought the lemmings to this point...there is no turning back from here.

Radicalization in and of itself does accomplish anything. I kind of touched on this above. First you need people have a concrete idea about what they want to accomplish. Acting out violently without a purpose is wasted energy, and depending on the circumstances you could end up in a worse spot than in the first place.

Perfect example: we walk about "pro" Macedonian as a concept right. Is waving the ventilator pro Macedonian in your opinion? In my opinion its anti Macedonian as it gets. I actually talk about the flag a lot, on the surface to a lot of people it may seem like a fairly menial thing in comparison to other pressing issues. But the reason I bring it up so much is because I view it as a barometer of what people are thinking. You see the ventilator is not just a flag, it was and still is the symbol of Greece completely taking away our sovereignty and dignity as Macedonians. If a supposed "pro" Macedonian, can't see such a glaring assault and his/her Macedonian-ness, then that individual is no where near the point of enlightenment required to attempt and successfully overthrow a government, AND (this is key) AND install a new PRO Macedonian government. You see as long as that person does not understand why the ventilator is anti Macedonian, then how can they understand much more complex anti Macedonian issues?

If you for example "radicalize" people who don't understand what it means to be pro Macedonian and anti Macedonian, then you are basically unleashing a violent anti Macedonian mob, and you have no idea where that will lead.

Like I said, use the ventilator as a barometer of how may and how close Macedonians are to finally getting it, because if they don't get something so simple and so insulting, then there is little hope for any other issue.

Busting into the parliament to fight selling out the country while waving the ventilator is ironic, and sad.

Whilst the attack on parliament didn't have positive consequences for the pro Macedonia camp. Radicalisation and increased violence against any Macedonian traitors would definitely have positive consequences for the Macedonian cause. As long as Macedonians are passive, the politicians will know this and continue to behave in the manner which they do. So they got slapped? the status quo continues.


Point is, no radicalisation = no change, same logic in ROM and Australia.

[DraganOfStip]

Unconfirmed reports from back when this storming first happened.... that pensioner grabbing Radmila Šekerinska by her hair, lost his son during the 2001 conflict against the Albanian terrorists.

This was denied by both the relatives of the soldier in question and the very same pensioner in an interview just a couple of days after the event.

[Phoenix]

...The politicians are not the problem, it is the ignorant, apathetic, and subservient population that is...

I think we can clearly all agree on these points...

The irony of democracy...a nation gets the government it deserves.

[Pelagonija]

Agreed,

What I meant was that the actions that were taken would help SDS come to power.

A true "storming" I think is impossible at this point. A true storming of the parliament requires much more then a bit of rage. It requires a purpose, a vision, determination to achieve a goal. Macedonians look like fish out of water, I think a part of their brains and souls knows what is going on is wrong but they lack the experience and frankly the courage, to really attempt a radical change. That is the main reason I was so against what I saw that day, because I knew, the country lacked the true mindset to actually accomplish something.

Even if that handful of "protesters" what ever you want to call them, even if they were 100x more violent, even if they managed to kill corrupt politicians, what then? Most of the country still doesn't understand basic concepts of democracy, freedom, self determination, sovereignty, rule of law, patriotism, nationalism, etc. That violent outburst, needs to happen after the majority of people understand these issues and the only thing standing in their way are the politicians. Then you storm. Otherwise, all you are doing is venting.

The politicians are not the problem, it is the ignorant, apathetic, and subservient population that is. If the populace wasn't those things, I am confident the politicians would fear the people, and would either not be a problem, or get out of the way willingly.



Radicalization in and of itself does accomplish anything. I kind of touched on this above. First you need people have a concrete idea about what they want to accomplish. Acting out violently without a purpose is wasted energy, and depending on the circumstances you could end up in a worse spot than in the first place.

Perfect example: we walk about "pro" Macedonian as a concept right. Is waving the ventilator pro Macedonian in your opinion? In my opinion its anti Macedonian as it gets. I actually talk about the flag a lot, on the surface to a lot of people it may seem like a fairly menial thing in comparison to other pressing issues. But the reason I bring it up so much is because I view it as a barometer of what people are thinking. You see the ventilator is not just a flag, it was and still is the symbol of Greece completely taking away our sovereignty and dignity as Macedonians. If a supposed "pro" Macedonian, can't see such a glaring assault and his/her Macedonian-ness, then that individual is no where near the point of enlightenment required to attempt and successfully overthrow a government, AND (this is key) AND install a new PRO Macedonian government. You see as long as that person does not understand why the ventilator is anti Macedonian, then how can they understand much more complex anti Macedonian issues?

If you for example "radicalize" people who don't understand what it means to be pro Macedonian and anti Macedonian, then you are basically unleashing a violent anti Macedonian mob, and you have no idea where that will lead.

Like I said, use the ventilator as a barometer of how may and how close Macedonians are to finally getting it, because if they don't get something so simple and so insulting, then there is little hope for any other issue.

Busting into the parliament to fight selling out the country while waving the ventilator is ironic, and sad.

Radicalisation may act as a deterrent to our corrupt politicians, in my opinion, for example if a corrupt Macedonian sell out official gets knocked off, would you not agree this "may" deter others in behaving such a way?

Yes agreed that radicalisation may have unforeseen consequences, let's take some extreme radicalisation examples

- Serbia in the 90s, failure
- Croatia in the 90s success
- Kosovo 90s success
- Albanians in ROM 2000s success
- Bulgaria Balkan war II, WWI, WWII failure
- Greece, ethnic cleansing of Agean Macedonia, success

Now as for the type radicalisation, that's up for interpretation. I'm not saying we should go to war, or blow up the place, though some serious exerted pressure may just make our coward officials think twice before selling out or even acting in a more favourable manner towards their own people.

This passive mentality hasn't gotten us anywhere good, we will go the way of the Agean Macedonians. Perhaps it's time we instill fear in troublesome persons instead of them happily driving around in their BMWS with not a care in the world..

Hence I say, the storming didn't achieve any objectives for our people. For SDSM, yes that only enhanced their image as the carriage of liberalism in ROM in the eyes of the west.

[Vangelovski]

An interesting perspective from the man on the street..

https://www.facebook.com/MKAUSPRIDE/videos/1499155693489088/

[Tomche Makedonche]

An interesting perspective from the man on the street..

https://www.facebook.com/MKAUSPRIDE/...9155693489088/

Old prick stole my moves!

[Gocka]

I think first you need to define "radicalization", that term is totally relative. It can have bot violent and non violent meaning, something that looks radical to you, might not to me, so just using the word radicalization with telling me what that means, leaves too many unknowns to respond to.

Based on your example, I can guess that by radicalization you mean the use of violence. Maybe in the examples you gave, the ones that you think were successful, ended up being successful because they were not violent for the sake of it, but they were trying to achieve a goal, and what stood in their way could only we resolved through violent means. They didn't set out to violent but came to the realization that it was necessary to further what ever it was they were trying to achieve.


Using your example of "knocking" off a politicians who you think is corrupt. With out a clear movement, with clear demands, how would the rest of the politicians know why that one was knocked off? Also without clear demands, or the right demands, how do you know you will influence the other politicians to do whats right, and not just some other anti Macedonian thing? How can they politicians know whats right, if the people putting pressure on said politicians don't know whats right?

There is no doubt in my mind that most, if not all the political class in Macedonia needs to be knocked off, but, if the people doing the knocking off, don't know any better than the politicians they are knocking off, then where does that leave you, other than back where you started?

I can tell that your heart is in the right place, that you care about Macedonia and its affairs, but I also think your views on how to make it better are a little misguided and shallow.

If you are serious about Macedonian affairs, and this goes for everyone, then we need to start creating that movement, that thesis that the movement will be built upon. Clearly that level of enlightenment doesn't exist in ROM, so maybe it can start from abroad. But if in order to start a credible intellectual movement, we have to get our own ducks in a row, and stop engaging in shallow, emotion based rhetoric and build a philosophical, principled, and moral base that hopefully can one day be used to start an actual movement.

We are all impatient and fed up, we want a movement to sprout out of thin air, but we ignore the fact that Macedonia has no backbone, no moral or philosophical ground to stand on.

BTW Pelagonija, I was like you a few years ago, enthusiastic, guns blazing, emotional. I made more idiotic comments than you. Some of the same things you have said, particularly about blind violence, I have said. The reason I am being so hard on you, is because when I made those idiotic comments, there were senior members who let me have it, and let me have it good. At the time, I may have felt embarrassed, but now I am proud, because I've really grown and elevated my understanding, and my moral clarity while being on this forum.

Now I feel it is my duty, to help you achieve the same, and that right there is the movement we are talking about. One person at a time.

I am going to Macedonia for a few months, and after I leave, if I have influenced and enlightened only 1 more person, then that is a step in the right direction.

This is what we should strive for, until the time is ripe for revolution.

Radicalisation may act as a deterrent to our corrupt politicians, in my opinion, for example if a corrupt Macedonian sell out official gets knocked off, would you not agree this "may" deter others in behaving such a way?

Yes agreed that radicalisation may have unforeseen consequences, let's take some extreme radicalisation examples

- Serbia in the 90s, failure
- Croatia in the 90s success
- Kosovo 90s success
- Albanians in ROM 2000s success
- Bulgaria Balkan war II, WWI, WWII failure
- Greece, ethnic cleansing of Agean Macedonia, success

Now as for the type radicalisation, that's up for interpretation. I'm not saying we should go to war, or blow up the place, though some serious exerted pressure may just make our coward officials think twice before selling out or even acting in a more favourable manner towards their own people.

This passive mentality hasn't gotten us anywhere good, we will go the way of the Agean Macedonians. Perhaps it's time we instill fear in troublesome persons instead of them happily driving around in their BMWS with not a care in the world..

Hence I say, the storming didn't achieve any objectives for our people. For SDSM, yes that only enhanced their image as the carriage of liberalism in ROM in the eyes of the west.

[Gocka]

Ain't that the truth. It is absolutely true, and you can see it unfolding all across the world.

The irony of democracy...a nation gets the government it deserves.

[Gocka]

LMAO WTF.

Just look at that and tell me we are ready for a revolution.

An interesting perspective from the man on the street..

https://www.facebook.com/MKAUSPRIDE/...9155693489088/

[Pelagonija]

I think first you need to define "radicalization", that term is totally relative. It can have bot violent and non violent meaning, something that looks radical to you, might not to me, so just using the word radicalization with telling me what that means, leaves too many unknowns to respond to.

Based on your example, I can guess that by radicalization you mean the use of violence. Maybe in the examples you gave, the ones that you think were successful, ended up being successful because they were not violent for the sake of it, but they were trying to achieve a goal, and what stood in their way could only we resolved through violent means. They didn't set out to violent but came to the realization that it was necessary to further what ever it was they were trying to achieve.


Using your example of "knocking" off a politicians who you think is corrupt. With out a clear movement, with clear demands, how would the rest of the politicians know why that one was knocked off? Also without clear demands, or the right demands, how do you know you will influence the other politicians to do whats right, and not just some other anti Macedonian thing? How can they politicians know whats right, if the people putting pressure on said politicians don't know whats right?

There is no doubt in my mind that most, if not all the political class in Macedonia needs to be knocked off, but, if the people doing the knocking off, don't know any better than the politicians they are knocking off, then where does that leave you, other than back where you started?

I can tell that your heart is in the right place, that you care about Macedonia and its affairs, but I also think your views on how to make it better are a little misguided and shallow.

If you are serious about Macedonian affairs, and this goes for everyone, then we need to start creating that movement, that thesis that the movement will be built upon. Clearly that level of enlightenment doesn't exist in ROM, so maybe it can start from abroad. But if in order to start a credible intellectual movement, we have to get our own ducks in a row, and stop engaging in shallow, emotion based rhetoric and build a philosophical, principled, and moral base that hopefully can one day be used to start an actual movement.

We are all impatient and fed up, we want a movement to sprout out of thin air, but we ignore the fact that Macedonia has no backbone, no moral or philosophical ground to stand on.

BTW Pelagonija, I was like you a few years ago, enthusiastic, guns blazing, emotional. I made more idiotic comments than you. Some of the same things you have said, particularly about blind violence, I have said. The reason I am being so hard on you, is because when I made those idiotic comments, there were senior members who let me have it, and let me have it good. At the time, I may have felt embarrassed, but now I am proud, because I've really grown and elevated my understanding, and my moral clarity while being on this forum.

Now I feel it is my duty, to help you achieve the same, and that right there is the movement we are talking about. One person at a time.

I am going to Macedonia for a few months, and after I leave, if I have influenced and enlightened only 1 more person, then that is a step in the right direction.

This is what we should strive for, until the time is ripe for revolution.

I hear where you are comming from. No offence taken. Though not sure whats so idiotic about violent resolutions for political purposes? It's been going on everywhere in the world for thousands of years? Logically speaking any such movement would have to have an obvious cause. No one is insinuating blind violence is the answer.

As for moral resolutions, perhaps if our people go back to basics, truly go to church and respect family, display love and breed as against being selfish, lazy and pessimistic then we might just stand a chance. Most Macedonians are immoral, maybe you can enlighten some of the locals on your trip to Ohrid.

Hence, radilicalisation can take on many forms, what fundamentally needs to change is how we think and do things in order to meet our desired objectives. We can bring all the intellectuals to the table you like, and we can over engineer this conversation to the cows come home and Macedonia won't be anywhere better

Have a safe trip

[Vangelovski]

Old prick stole my moves!

Own up - this guy taught you everything you know

[Vangelovski]

LMAO WTF.

Just look at that and tell me we are ready for a revolution.

This guy is the revolution. The rakija revolution.