U.S. Politics, Elections & Culture issues

[Gocka]

Next US president Donald Trump

I'm curious what the rest of the world is saying about this narcissistic side show that will probably become the next president, because Americans are retarded.

Personally I think he his the potential to be Hitler 2.0.

He keeps growing in popularity, and he has yet to actually give a single detail about what he actually plans to do if elected.

His speeches consist of the following few comments and phrases. We will make this country great, we will make the army bigger and better than ever before, we will fix the economy, we will chase out all the illegals, we will make sure the USA has no trade deficit with anyone, we will fix the middle east, we will fix the tax system. Our politicians are stupid, other countries have smarter politicians, the gangs across the USA consist mostly of illegals, we will deport the illegals so fast your head will spin, Illegals get better healthcare than veterans, illegals are taking jobs away from Americans, Mexico is intentionally sending illegals and criminals across the border, we will build a wall on the southern border and Mexico will pay for it, I am a builder I will build things, I will fix Iran, I'll make women's health issues the best they've ever been, illegals are committing murders all over the country, I will make sure American companies stop sending jobs overseas.

He has yet to give any insight as to how he actually plans to accomplish any of this, which by the way would take the cooperation of the house and senate.

Watching him makes me laugh, but then when I realize that he is currently by far the front runner, and still growing in popularity, it really freaks me out.

He is running his campaign like a reality TV show, and its freaking working.

I've been keeping track of who supports who at the office, and he is currently supported by 30% of my office, in freaking liberal NJ.

Is anyone abroad taking him seriously?

[Vangelovski]

Don't worry Gocka. If he is elected, he'll be from the Government and the Government is always there to help you.

[Vangelovski]

90% tax .... utter bullshit
Socialism/Capitalism .... both are idealised and both unrealistic in their true essence. In fact, you appear to be advocating some kind of middle ground or non black and white stance on the issue. I commend you for stepping into the shades of grey world we live in.

I think you attribute more black and white to my views than there really is.

Just because I have taken the time to think about something and make a decision on it, such as individual freedom, it does not mean that I don't understand the limitations to it or the need for more collective interpersonal relationships such as families, local communities and the wider nation. In normal discussions on individual freedom, those other things are a given, but here on the MTO with a group of people who have descended from socialist societies, just mentioning individual freedom makes them froth at the mouth (and no, I don't mean you).

I've been promoting Macedonian national freedom since I was able to truly grasp its meaning (as opposed to the plastic DPMNE patriotism that I started out with as a teenager) - but that does not mean I don't understand the limitations and the practicalities surrounding a small state of 2 million people trying to freely run their own affairs. When confronted by people constantly denouncing the very idea of Macedonian national freedom, one tends to be careful not to legitimise their opposition by going into the "grey world" as you call it, where they are able to create a great deal of confusion and pull the "trust me, its a grand strategy" ploy. Many times, when dealing with superficial conversations on online forums where nobody wants to read more than 3 dot points, you just have to cut to the chase and spell it out quickly so there is no room for misinterpretation.

But in relation to this particular conversation, I've never been against the existence of democratic governance (think my years on this forum have borne that out), the rule of law as enacted by democratically elected representatives or taxation for the purpose of fulfilling a government's role.

What I do question is the specific role of government. I'm instinctively a supporter of limited government (and I think most people are - look at Gocka, the big government guy who just shat himself at the though of Trump winning!) and while I have a good idea of what I would like to see, I don't know exactly where I would draw that line. I don't like governments collecting more tax than is absolutely necessary for them to fulfill their limited roles because that inevitably encourages them to move into areas where they should not play a role at all (in my view). Personally, I think that if governments stopped involving themselves in a myriad of areas where they should not (as I view it) there would be plenty of funds for government provided health, education and welfare, critical infrastructure, defence, the judicial system and a host of other necessary services.

[DraganOfStip]

I'm curious what the rest of the world is saying about this narcissistic side show that will probably become the next president, because Americans are retarded.

Personally I think he his the potential to be Hitler 2.0.

He keeps growing in popularity, and he has yet to actually give a single detail about what he actually plans to do if elected.

His speeches consist of the following few comments and phrases. We will make this country great, we will make the army bigger and better than ever before, we will fix the economy, we will chase out all the illegals, we will make sure the USA has no trade deficit with anyone, we will fix the middle east, we will fix the tax system. Our politicians are stupid, other countries have smarter politicians, the gangs across the USA consist mostly of illegals, we will deport the illegals so fast your head will spin, Illegals get better healthcare than veterans, illegals are taking jobs away from Americans, Mexico is intentionally sending illegals and criminals across the border, we will build a wall on the southern border and Mexico will pay for it, I am a builder I will build things, I will fix Iran, I'll make women's health issues the best they've ever been, illegals are committing murders all over the country, I will make sure American companies stop sending jobs overseas.

He has yet to give any insight as to how he actually plans to accomplish any of this, which by the way would take the cooperation of the house and senate.

Watching him makes me laugh, but then when I realize that he is currently by far the front runner, and still growing in popularity, it really freaks me out.

He is running his campaign like a reality TV show, and its freaking working.

I've been keeping track of who supports who at the office, and he is currently supported by 30% of my office, in freaking liberal NJ.

Is anyone abroad taking him seriously?

I don't think so.
My surprise is that the Republican party can't find any better than this clown?
They want to end an 8-year Obama (Democrat) rule with this character?
That is ridiculous and sad at the same time.
The Rpublicans have The Governator (Schwarzeneger of course),even he with his Austrian accent would be better than this freak.
Tell you the truth I don't think Americans (as dumb as they are) will vote this guy as the next president.
Even if he does win the Republican nomination,who ever will be the Democrat candidate will win the elections in my opinion,mostly because of his racial and immigratory policy and rhetoric.
Immigrants (legal or illegal,their number in the states is huge) will never vote for him and I believe all the neutral voters won't either.

[George S.]

There is some talk that he could pull the trigger and newk north korea or some other country who wont heel.

[Gocka]

Democracy requires constant participation from the citizens. They may elect him, but once he gets into power I doubt he will give a shit what anyone else wants or thinks. If you want to mock me I know you can do better than that.

Don't worry Gocka. If he is elected, he'll be from the Government and the Government is always there to help you.

[Vangelovski]

Democracy requires constant participation from the citizens. They may elect him, but once he gets into power I doubt he will give a shit what anyone else wants or thinks. If you want to mock me I know you can do better than that.

I'm not mocking you Gocka, I'm making a point. There are plenty of effective avenues in the US for participation - more so than in Australia.

[Gocka]

Maybe that's true, but at a minimum I think they are not being used.

I don't know how much you follow American politics, but based on your admiration for America I think quite a lot. Currently there is only 1 candidate that I would vote for and that is Rand Paul. Yes I know what he stands for is 100% opposite from what I have been saying. I support him because in my opinion we either have a democratic, participatory, efficient and accountable government, or the only other alternative which is the smallest one possible. Currently too much work needs to be done to actually achieve that ideal government, I believe first it needs to be torn down to the bare bones before we can build it up to what it should be. Rand Paul is the only one who would advocate for that. Then once you are down to a bare minimum, you eliminate money, lobbyists, and special interest groups.

I like big enough government, but I also like it to be at a local level. I am a big fan of states rights, and even more so local rights. No one will know better the needs of a community than the community itself. That way you know exactly who is accountable, he is the person right down the street, no more scapegoats.

I'm not as socialist as you might think, I am quite conservative on a number of issues, but I also realize that compassion for others needs to be at the front of all issues. Currently in the USA the average person is completely marginalized. If you dont have a lobbyist or a super pac, your ideas dont get heard, and your interests are not looked after.

I dont want the government to look after me, or shift my responsibilities onto the government. I want a government that listens to what I and my fellow citizens want. I am not convinced that is the case currently.

I'm not mocking you Gocka, I'm making a point. There are plenty of effective avenues in the US for participation - more so than in Australia.

[Vangelovski]

Currently there is only 1 candidate that I would vote for and that is Rand Paul.

I thought you were voting for Bernie (if he gets the nomination).

I believe first it needs to be torn down to the bare bones before we can build it up to what it should be. Rand Paul is the only one who would advocate for that. Then once you are down to a bare minimum, you eliminate money, lobbyists, and special interest groups.

This is socialism 101 - destroy the existing order and rebuild it under a "dictatorship of the proletariat", or "real democracy" as socialists like to call it (but Marx let the cat out of the bag).

I like big enough government, but I also like it to be at a local level. I am a big fan of states rights, and even more so local rights. No one will know better the needs of a community than the community itself. That way you know exactly who is accountable, he is the person right down the street, no more scapegoats.

I'd probably agree on this, but local government can't deliver what you want - healthcare, education, welfare UNLESS its at least partially privatised and user pays - because it just can't raise those sorts of funds. Once you get a federal/national government involved, then ultimately power is removed from the local level because at the end of the day the guy who writes the cheques also writes the rules.

I'm not as socialist as you might think, I am quite conservative on a number of issues, but I also realize that compassion for others needs to be at the front of all issues. Currently in the USA the average person is completely marginalized. If you dont have a lobbyist or a super pac, your ideas dont get heard, and your interests are not looked after.

I'm yet to see this conservatism. The statement "average person is completely marginalised" is either an attempt at hyperbole or incredibly naive. Either way, its 'completely' inaccurate. You should probably learn more about your political system and look at some of the grassroots political movements in the US (past and present) - it will give you a better understanding of the various, meaningful and effective ways you can participate and actually make some difference. Of course, numbers always help.

I dont want the government to look after me, or shift my responsibilities onto the government. I want a government that listens to what I and my fellow citizens want. I am not convinced that is the case currently.

While its far from perfect, one of the strengths of the US congressional system is that congressmen are largely free to vote their conscious (or according to their constituents wishes) rather than having to stick to the party line. If you think that US congressmen are restricted in this sense, you should look at the Westminster system (or any other democracy across the world). Another strength of the US electoral system (and I'm not sure if its across all states) is the recall vote. You're able to fire your representatives almost at will. We have to put up with them for the whole 3 or 4 years (depending on your state). There is no recall ability in Australia either at the federal, state or local level. These are only two small examples, but very important ones I think.

[777Bitola]

He displays strong leadership qualities and thats what people like about him the most. His political theories are definitely questionable, but we'll see as the race continues. Personally I didn't like Obama, Obamacare cost me and others our jobs and is bullshit. I like Bernie Sanders but havent done enough research on him and heard some notions about raising taxes but If it comes down to Hillary vs Trump, I'll vote for trump.

[Risto the Great]

Accountants aren't all about taxation, but my point is that I don’t think there would be very many of them if government didn't create a need for their services through taxation AND financial regulation. So I think there is a government employee cardigan in all of your closets. If you want to play the financially independent of government card, then you’d have to get a job that is sustained solely through private demand for its particular good or service and not government imposed regulation.

The halo around accountants such as li'l old beautiful me only exists in capitalist societies. I would say the role of accountants and the positive perception of their usefulness (particularly in public practice) is greater in capitalistic nations. So I would argue against your (seemingly logical) suggestion based upon my travels. I remain defiantly anti-cardigan.

[DraganOfStip]

Another article regarding the corporate crime and corruption in the States,connected to the wealth inequality Gocka was mentioning.

http://off.net.mk/vesti/svet/pravdata-e-za-sitnata-boranija

[Vangelovski]

Dragan, you have the results of socialism in Macedonia. Why ruin other countries as well?

[George S.]

Why Macedonia ?Its got the highest rating in eu for corruption.How would you describe it .Its not as democratic as one imagines.
Rtg aren't you accountants busy at this moment with tax etc and you guys are racking it in.All that hard work makes your halo glow with the flow of money.I'm not denigrating you just putting you on an pedestal good ,accountants are worth their weight in gold.Think about how much the accountants save their clients?I know many accountants who don't wear a cardigan.A pressed suit is just fine no cardigans there.

[Gocka]

I never said I would vote for him, I said I like him.

I thought you were voting for Bernie (if he gets the nomination).

Watch out the Russians are coming! The current government is too large and dysfunctional, it needs a grass roots rebuild. This is something hard line right wing and libertarian supporters would say, are they also Marxists?

This is socialism 101 - destroy the existing order and rebuild it under a "dictatorship of the proletariat", or "real democracy" as socialists like to call it (but Marx let the cat out of the bag).

The Federal government can raise the funds and distribute them equally by population. There is not reason why the decision making cant still be left to the local government. The get funds for education healthcare, police, and other essentials, and it is up to them to use the funds as there local population wants. If the local population would rather spend all their funds on police and nothing on education and healthcare, then so be it, as long as that is their choice. Your are generalizing.

I'd probably agree on this, but local government can't deliver what you want - healthcare, education, welfare UNLESS its at least partially privatised and user pays - because it just can't raise those sorts of funds. Once you get a federal/national government involved, then ultimately power is removed from the local level because at the end of the day the guy who writes the cheques also writes the rules.

You ought to learn a little bit more about what goes on in the real world and not what some books says it should be like. If you can not see that the system from the ground up is heavily influenced by lobbyists and special interest groups, backed by a lot of money, then you are just sticking your head in the sand and pretending. Just because it is not 100% dominated by special interests doesn't me they aren't a problem. Illusory democracy isn't democracy. You can elect who ever you want, but if you cant control them then that is illusory democracy. How revolving doors are there between lobbyist groups, corporate board rooms, and government?

I'm yet to see this conservatism. The statement "average person is completely marginalised" is either an attempt at hyperbole or incredibly naive. Either way, its 'completely' inaccurate. You should probably learn more about your political system and look at some of the grassroots political movements in the US (past and present) - it will give you a better understanding of the various, meaningful and effective ways you can participate and actually make some difference. Of course, numbers always help.

Its not always one in the same. The representatives have too much leeway to vote on their conscious and not enough pressure to vote according to the will of their constituents. Again something that in theory is great by in practice is heavily manipulated.

[quote[While its far from perfect, one of the strengths of the US congressional system is that congressmen are largely free to vote their conscious (or according to their constituents wishes) rather than having to stick to the party line.[/quote]


In over a 100 years since recall elections were enacted, and they do not exist in all states, there have been just over a 100 recalls in all branches of government. The vast majority of these recalls around 85 were local mayors, only 2 governors ever have been recalled, and a dozen and a half from congress and senate. This is over a 100 year period. Where between Governors, Congress, and Mayors, over 20,000 a year serve. So over a 100 years of nearly 2,000,000 officials 100 have been successfully recalled. So I suppose the other 1,999,900 of them all just did a bang up job.

I love the way the US system of government is setup, I think the US constitution is the best in the world, but the integrity of that system has been compromised, and it needs to start over. I would have no problem with it starting over just as it was originally intended.

If you think that US congressmen are restricted in this sense, you should look at the Westminster system (or any other democracy across the world). Another strength of the US electoral system (and I'm not sure if its across all states) is the recall vote. You're able to fire your representatives almost at will. We have to put up with them for the whole 3 or 4 years (depending on your state). There is no recall ability in Australia either at the federal, state or local level. These are only two small examples, but very important ones I think.