An observation...

[vicsinad]

Now,I haven't lived abroad and thus I can't say how good/bad it is there,but I live in Macedonia my whole life and i think I can give you a pretty good picture of how hard life here is from first hand.
And believe me,it isn't like what you present it to be at all.

How did I present it? People aren't starving, kids are happy, and the quality of life is good.

Sure, life is hard. It's hard everywhere. When I went to Macedonia last summer, the cafes and beaches were packed with 20-30 year olds all day and all night. I asked so many about working conditions: there's no jobs. What can you do about it? "Wait until the government makes more jobs." Default: blame the government. Most the unemployed village youth refuse to work the fields and their parents land but still go out nearly every day and night. "There are no jobs for me." Yes, same thing in the US. 70% of Americans are unhappy or depressed with the jobs they do and aren't working in their field. My uncle who lives in Resen was explaining to me why you only see the Roma sweeping the streets: because Macedonians are too "embarrassed" to take jobs like that...it's beneath them. So they'd rather be out of work than be looked at as a street-sweeper. That doesn't seem like a hard life to me. I sympathize with those who work hard and are struggling. I don't sympathize with those who mope around all day complaining and waiting for other people to mend their woes while not taking initiative to improve their conditions. It goes for Macedonians and Americans and everyone.

And you're saying a country isn't poor until the population starts selling their kidneys to survive?Is that the red line that defines poverty?Not last time I checked.

No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying they probably are not worried about where their next meal is coming from until they start selling their kidneys.

Kid's biggest consern is whether he'll be on time for his favorite cartoon or whether his friend will have a better toy than him.

That's not true. If it was, then America's kids would be the happiest because they can watch any cartoon at any time, and definitely have better and more toys than everyone else in the world.

For Christ's sake just look at the stats man,71% of employees earn less than the average paycheck (21500 denars equals 350 EUR,392 USD or 500 AUD depending on the currency you use),while the minimum means for a decent life are 32000 denars (520 EUR,583 USD or 750 AUD,take your pick).Meaning,all those people can barely make their ends meet every month and you're telling me macedonians are happy?!Are you listening to yourself?

Let me give you some statistics. 66% of Americans earn less than the average pay check (which is pretty close to Macedonia's 71%). 15% of Americans are on food stamps (meaning, they need the government to give them money to buy food). 6% of Americans actually don't know if they will have enough food for them or their kids next week. 20% of American children are living in poverty. Over half of the unemployed (combined long term and short term) in US are between 18 and 35 are Sure, the US salary is much higher but it's all relative to the cost of living. These statistics are (un)surprisingly pretty close to the statistics you gave about Macedonia, with a little more about Americans and food security. Or as an article says, despite 20% of Macedonians living in destitute poverty, "Food security and poor nutrition are not direct development issues in the country." I guess my question is: what makes someone poor -- the lack of dollars in their pockets or the lack of food in their belly?

http://www.zakat.org/country/macedonia/

http://www.mybudget360.com/how-much-do-americans-earn-what-is-the-average-us-income/

http://www.feedingamerica.org/hunger-in-america/impact-of-hunger/hunger-and-poverty/hunger-and-poverty-fact-sheet.html

http://www.theguardian.com/money/us-money-blog/2014/mar/27/us-long-term-unemployed-ghosts-economy-jobs

I didn't say Macedonians are happy because they're poor. I didn't equate the two. I'm saying that despite their poverty, most Macedonians have a better quality of life than most Americans. And it's quite obvious I'm not basing quality of life on the number of dollars in your pockets or the amount of "goods" the people consume.

[DraganOfStip]

How did I present it? People aren't starving, kids are happy, and the quality of life is good.

A kid will be happy if you buy him a chocolate too,or a candy,a toy...There are numerous ways of making kids happy,and their definition of happiness is not a reference for the general population's happiness.

My uncle who lives in Resen was explaining to me why you only see the Roma sweeping the streets: because Macedonians are too "embarrassed" to take jobs like that...it's beneath them. So they'd rather be out of work than be looked at as a street-sweeper.

That is an overstatement.There are people with a great ego that wouldn't work anything "beneath" them everywhere in the world ,not just Macedonia.However,most Macedonians here would work anything to provide food to the table.
My father has a degree in agriculture,he spent 20+ years working as a chief technologist in production of alcoholic and non-alcoholic beverages.Then transition struck and most people lost their jobs including him.
My parents ,my sister and me were left to live off my mother's textile worker's salary.My dad struggled to find a job matching his qualifications and when he saw he had no choice he had to do whatever he could find.
He's now a "maintenance-man" at a local green park and he earns 100 euros a month.An agronomist engineer, earns even less then the Roma your uncle mentioned.

At one stage,when my wife quit her job so she could take care of our sick baby and I got somehow stuck in between jobs,we used to "wrinkle" (карширање is the macedonian word for the process,wrinkling is the closest word I could find to describe it) men's shirts at home in order to make it through the month.It's a process that takes 2 people to do,so both of us had to work together and we ended up earning just some 300 eur (both of us together,not each) per month.And I was never ashamed of that.

No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying they probably are not worried about where their next meal is coming from until they start selling their kidneys.

Uh...which is basically the same thing,but OK.

Let me give you some statistics. 66% of Americans earn less than the average pay check (which is pretty close to Macedonia's 71%). 15% of Americans are on food stamps (meaning, they need the government to give them money to buy food). 6% of Americans actually don't know if they will have enough food for them or their kids next week. 20% of American children are living in poverty. Over half of the unemployed (combined long term and short term) in US are between 18 and 35 are

If all of the above is true,then why are people from all over the world moving in the US for a better life instead of being the other way around?

I'm saying that despite their poverty, most Macedonians have a better quality of life than most Americans.

Again,101% of Macedonians disagree with that.

Like I said,I can't comment on how good/bad life is abroad,but please,don't tell me how life in Macedonia is.

[vicsinad]

A kid will be happy if you buy him a chocolate too,or a candy,a toy...There are numerous ways of making kids happy,and their definition of happiness is not a reference for the general population's happiness.

Sure. None of that explains why kids in America, Britain, and other European countries don't feel as happy as Macedonian children.

That is an overstatement.There are people with a great ego that wouldn't work anything "beneath" them everywhere in the world ,not just Macedonia.However,most Macedonians here would work anything to provide food to the table.

Maybe it was an overstatement. But so is the statement that the number one thing on most Macedonians' minds is where their next meal is going to come from. Maybe that's more of an overstatement.

My father has a degree in agriculture,he spent 20+ years working as a chief technologist in production of alcoholic and non-alcoholic beverages.Then transition struck and most people lost their jobs including him.
My parents ,my sister and me were left to live off my mother's textile worker's salary.My dad struggled to find a job matching his qualifications and when he saw he had no choice he had to do whatever he could find.
He's now a "maintenance-man" at a local green park and he earns 100 euros a month.An agronomist engineer, earns even less then the Roma your uncle mentioned.

At one stage,when my wife quit her job so she could take care of our sick baby and I got somehow stuck in between jobs,we used to "wrinkle" (карширање is the macedonian word for the process,wrinkling is the closest word I could find to describe it) men's shirts at home in order to make it through the month.It's a process that takes 2 people to do,so both of us had to work together and we ended up earning just some 300 eur (both of us together,not each) per month.And I was never ashamed of that.

That sucks, it really does -- it must be hard. I hope your baby is doing better.

If all of the above is true,then why are people from all over the world moving in the US for a better life instead of being the other way around?

Jobs and opportunities that have to do with other than working the land or farming. I asked my parents, my uncles, and a whole bunch of people who left the villages in the 60s and 70s: why did you leave? "Jobs." Why didn't you want stay on the village and work the land? "We could have, but we wanted more than that life could offer us." Essentially, people come to America for several reasons, but one is because they want more of something. Sometimes that's freedoms, sometimes that's money, sometimes it's both.

Another reason people come here is misconception: that more jobs and money will lead to better quality of life and happiness. Do you consider two-thirds of the population being overweight and one-third obese as a quality of life? Is that the future you want for you kids? Do you consider having to pay between $10,000 and $30,000 US a year for your students' college education (depending on the type of quality you want your kids to get) a quality education deal? That means that your typical mom and dad have to work 2-3 years to pay for one child's education. So they don't...many kids take out tens of thousands in loans or don't go to college. (Actually, 40% don't get a college degree).

How about the world's highest imprisonment rate? Or the fact that every EU country has a lower homicide rate (and the US's is 3 times higher than Macedonia's)? Or that the US suicide rate is 3 times as high as Macedonia's? Or that 10% of Americans are clinically depressed? Or that the divorce rate for first time married US couples is 45%? Or that the US has the 6th highest cancer rate whereas Macedonia the 40th? Or that the depression rate is twice as high in the US? Or that out of the EU, Canada, Australia, and NZ, US health care ranked last even though we spend the most money on health care? We're also in the bottom 10% of countries when it comes to infant mortality rates, and 50th in life expectancy! 10% of our population has diabetes, which is surely the same as Macedonia, but the autism rate in the US is now at 1 in 68. There are only four countries in the world that don't mandate paid leave for new mothers, and one of them is the US.

As far as number of US seniors taking these exotic cruises and freely traveling to foreign countries: only 1/3 of Americans have passports...or, only 5% of Americans travel to somewhere other than Canada or Mexico each year, and more than 50% of Americans haven't even been to Canada or Mexico. Both car thefts and fast food sales as percentage of a population are the highest in the world -- I don't know how they are related, but they both suck. Americans watch, on average, over 30 hours of television a week. That's over 4 hours a day. Sleep, work, eat, watch TV, repeat. We also are number one for teen pregnancy, woo! And school shootings. And child abuse death rate. No other country has a higher prescription drug rates than us, or mental disorder rates. Or superficial plastic surgery rates, eating disorder deaths, most time stuck in traffic, and the most laws!

Or let's put things in an economic perspective: the average American spends one-fourth of his income on food and heat. One-third of Americans can't afford their mortgage (home) payments. Our credit-card debt is 8 times larger than it was 30 years ago. Americans owe $1 trillion on student loans. Add to that that about 50% of college graduates under 25 are unemployed (good luck paying back those loans). 75% of Americans live "paycheck to paycheck". 3% of Americans own 97% of the wealth. Interestingly, or not, out of the "developed" nations, the US has the 3rd worst poverty rate. 60% of all Americans who declare bankruptcy do so because they can't afford medical costs. Combine that with my previous post of the number of Americans in poverty and on food stamps.

God bless the USA for being so fantastically rich.

You might not have had an idea of what life is like in the US, but now you are getting a better picture. You maybe can get past the picture that things are so dandy here: people put on such a show, "look at my clothes, look at my house, look at my cars, look at my degrees." Just as with anywhere in the world, in Macedonia, or the US: if you've got it made, you've got it made. If you don't, you don't.

So maybe they come here because they are disillusioned what life will be like. And maybe we should stop primarily basing quality of life, for entire societies, solely or primarily on how much money we have.

One thing I can guarantee you for sure: there are, as a percentage of the total population, more Americans going hungry right now than Macedonians. All this is said not to trivialize Macedonia's economic situation. I get it -- it sucks. Life is hard. But it's not easy for most people around the world, and that's not going to change any time soon.

Edit: Check this out, latest CNN article on poverty in the US. In one of the richest areas in the US, 1 in 3 children face hunger. Not much different in Macedonia, or worse?

http://www.cnn.com/interactive/2015/03/opinion/ctl-child-poverty/

[Philosopher]

Interesting input Dragan. It is fairly consistent to the information I have access to.

So what are your thoughts on how to reverse the economic woes in the country?

Do you believe it should be a bottom up movement? A top down? Should the people wait for government?

Is government the problem?

If so, what is the solution?

What are your thoughts?

[Risto the Great]

Dragan and Vic.
Both of you have such compelling arguments. You almost made my lunch taste bad. Then I realised I should be happy I have my lunch.

I tend to think that most Macedonians in Macedonia would be extremely enthusiastic about the prospects for prosperity in a country like USA. This observation helps me conclude that Macedonians are indeed worse off because they simply have no hope.

I would be curious to know how recent migrants from Macedonia to USA have fared. Vic, can you comment on this? Most of the Macedonians who have come to Australia probably punch above their weight with respect to their demonstrated savings/earnings.

Macedonia will never be a USA or Australia or Germany. It will be another Balkan country with "issues". However, it can be wrapped up into a cute little tourist destination. The NY Times rated it a top 10 destination to visit here:

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/01/11/travel/52-places-to-go-in-2015.html?_r=0

Of course, waiters and management would have to learn to be more enthusiastic and proactive. My memories of classy establishments in Macedonia are where they treat you as though you are comrade Tito reincarnate. I would much prefer really friendly, accommodating and anticipating staff.

Until there is resolution to the ethnic tension in Macedonia and no more nepotism and jobs for the boys, it will never really be a magnet to industry. It is a shame. I have a (real) Hugo Boss shirt that was manufactured in Macedonia that I am proud to wear. Things can be made there to a high level of quality. I was seriously putting together a business initiative for something of significance to the country a few years ago. But the whole country is fickle and inconsistent. It simply is not a place for the average investor.

[Gocka]

Maybe since I lived in both Macedonia and the USA equally in my life, I can offer an honest and objective point of view on living and working in both countries.

I am leaning toward Vicsinad's view here a bit, most of what he says is true, but I think there is also a small truth to Dragan's point of view. Let me explain.

First you need to define what being "poor" is and what "poverty" is these are words that we hear and use all the time, and we think they have one set definition but they are in fact the kind of words that are very fluid and really dont mean anything specific at all. Something that is poor, basically means something that is lacking, usually living in poverty means being poor, so you always arrive back at "lacking". So first you have to ask what is it that you are lacking that makes you poor? It really comes down to what you as an individual decide is lacking in your life, that will define whether you are poor or rich.

So now that we have that out of the way let me give my experience. In one sentence, I was happier and more fulfilled living in Macedonia, so was my wife. When we lived in Macedonia, we were materialistically poor, we could never afford modern appliances like washers and dryers, dish washers, or electronics like cell phones and TV's and laptops. We had a zastava that sounded like a tractor, sometimes it worked sometimes it didn't. My clothes were cheap and simple from Turkey. We had rickety furniture, squeaky mattresses, no heat other than where we had a fireplace and a wood stove. Our refrigerator was a third of the size of a standard American version. The kitchen had linoleum floors and wood cabinets that my grandfather made (he was a carpenter). The walls were painted with var, we had no light fixtures just a fasonka hanging from the ceiling. Our TV was about the size of the computer monitor I am looking at now, no cable, just the antenna that caught 5 channels one of which was the parliament all day long. I didn't eat chicken marsala, I ate graf and piperki, ajvar and tursija in the winter. I had a bicycle; it was probably harder to pedal it than it was to walk. We grew apples to sell, and we planted most of our own food, sometimes it was back breaking work, sometimes there was nothing to do. We rarely had extra money for spending, just enough to go out and have a drink a few times a week. We never saw a doctor; then again we never needed to. At the time all these things really bothered us, it’s all we thought about. We would see and read about how people lived in the west, we would hear Macedonian/American tourists brag about how good they live and how much stuff they had, and I won’t lie, it made me jealous. I would always say that I work so hard and it gets me nowhere. I thought of Macedonia as a black hole I blamed the country the land the people, everything. I wanted a better life and from what I had heard from family overseas, America was a great place to start a life and raise a family. So I thought.
Well we moved to America, land of the free, home of the brave, land of opportunity. At first we had nothing, we started from zero, it was hard but we were motivated. We worked a lot saved money, bought “so we thought” a home, and few cars. Got a good education, got a stable easy white collar job. I have a pretty decent sized house, four cars, some NASA memory foam beds, plasma TV’s, a motorcycle, pool table, a commercial fridge in my “man cave” where I keep all the beer and soda I could ever need, I eat whatever I want whenever I want. I’ve got all the modern gadgets, phones, etc etc. Literally I went and bought everything that I never had. So here I am where I always wanted to be, and guess what, it blows. All this stuff is nothing but garbage taking up space. 99% of the things I own rarely get used after the initial thrill of buying them is gone. I also now am blessed with a 30 year mortgage on a house made out of tooth picks and gypsum compressed in between craft paper. I have 4 auto loans on cars that will be practically worthless when the loan is paid off. I have student loans that I will be paying for 15 years and are more than the average Macedonian will earn in a lifetime (just the student loans). So really I don’t own anything, someone owns me and everything I depend on. If tomorrow I got ill and couldn’t work, basically little by little all my shit would be hauled away as if it were never mine, well it really never was. It’s a really sad realization when you realize that someone else literally owns your livelihood. Now this isn’t the worst. The worst is that in pursuit of this glamorous life, you basically enter a vicious little circle, work, eat sleep and buy some shit. You might say well maybe you just made poor choices, and you’re not living your life in a fulfilling way. I would say you are right. The problem is I don’t see another way of living in this country. On even a decent above average salary, it would take you 10 years of saving to buy a house in cash, which is not possible because before you have cash, you need a car, car insurance, medical insurance, rent, food, utilities, student loans and car loans. Even fresh out of college this is what you are faced with, you have no choice but to resort to debt, then that debt stops you from ever being able to save enough money to buy big ticket items like cars and houses in cash. So either you take out a mortgage to buy a house or you rent an apartment for life and pay someone else mortgage for them. Once you’re in this system there no getting out, and the way into the system is usually education. A decent education is 25,000 per year; all but the very wealthy rely on loans to get an education. I don’t want to beat a dead horse, so basically what I getting at is that the “wealthy” American image is just that, an image. I actually saw the funniest picture that sums up what I’m saying perfectly. So there is a picture with 3 or 4 people standing in line on a street, underneath them is there net worth, one of the people is homeless, he has a cup with change, he’s worth like a $2.25, all the other people around him have negative net worth, a recent college grad is worth -$125,000, a man with a home and car is worth -$320,000. You can’t be wealthy if you owe more many than you have in your pocket.
Why was I happier in Macedonia? I had more free time, I had family, and good friends. We laughed, we relaxed, we appreciated each other. Everything I had in my home was mine 100%, no one could take it from me. My grandfather built our home with his bare hands, it was like a fortress. I didn’t have to look over my shoulder and think about what happens if my dick head boos has a bad day today and fires me, or what happens if I get sick and can’t work. We didn’t have anything so we thought, but we had everything we needed. We never went hungry, we never stressed like this. Now when I look back, had I known what I know today, what we had in Macedonia, we could have made it paradise if we wanted to, but we didn’t want to, the grass was always greener somewhere else. Working on the farm was hard sometimes but it was only sometimes, I wasn’t on the farm from 8-6 every day every week. There could be weeks at a time where I had nothing to do especially if the rain was generous to us. That was not a bad life. It certainly lacked some material possessions, but I would gladly give them up now for a chance to do it all over again.
If Macedonians only tried to better educate themselves, focused on the positives in their lives, made the best of what they had, and most importantly appreciated what they have and who have, most would be well off. But I also don’t blame them, until you have done it and seen it with your own eyes, you really will never understand it. So I encourage any Macedonian who can, to go to the west, try it. It’s the only way you will ever know.
All I can say is, there is a reason that we lead, in murder, suicide, incarceration, cancer, obesity, divorce, rape, mental illness, and so many other lovely categories. If it was such a great place to live people wouldn’t be so freaking wacked out of their minds.

[vicsinad]

I tend to think that most Macedonians in Macedonia would be extremely enthusiastic about the prospects for prosperity in a country like USA. This observation helps me conclude that Macedonians are indeed worse off because they simply have no hope.

I think this big. I think state of mind goes a long way.

I would be curious to know how recent migrants from Macedonia to USA have fared. Vic, can you comment on this? Most of the Macedonians who have come to Australia probably punch above their weight with respect to their demonstrated savings/earnings.

I don't have any facts or figures, but from what I can tell of the immigrants from the 60s and 70s, the first generation worked really hard (mostly in factories) and are generally financially well off (middle to upper middle class). The second generation are a mixed bag...many a tad bit spoiled, and by far, while more educated than their parents, not nearly as hard working and not as nearly as prone to saving for a rainy day. The first generation was more worried about how much they had in the bank: the second generation is more worried about how much stuff they can get.

That said, it is quite common to hear of the Macedonian family (just like many Americans) who bought that 5,000+ square foot house, and a few nice cars to go along, with both parents working 7 days a week 8-12 hours a day just so they can pay it off in 25 years. Many are taking out huge mortgages and debts. Because most Macedonians were in the manufacturing sector, and in Detroit that means the auto sector, many nashi were laid off or lost their jobs a few years back, and things got pretty bad (especially after they splurged on upgrading to bigger houses...between the 70s and the present, Macedonians steadily moved away from the inner city to the suburbs). There is also serious gambling issues in the nashe community here, at least that's what I gather from the frequent stories and gossip I hear. And new Macedonian immigrants that come here tend to be better off than impoverished "Americans" because the community is still tight enough to support them, and of course they usually come if they already have some family to help them out (they'll get help in the way of finding a job, a place, or a car).

Overall, I think Macedonians that come here fare financially well compared to their peers, and the same can be said for most first-generation immigrants, especially other Eastern and Southern Europeans. I think there was a drive in them to "better" their conditions. They reached that point, and now the second generation doesn't really understand what it means to "better" themselves because their parents worked so hard to give them everything they could need and want. And now, for the most part, maybe due to a mix of nostalgia and sincerity, most of the older generation talk about how life was better in Macedonia even though they didn't have much. Most of it, I gather, is that the suburbs (where most Macedonians live) has really eroded their understanding and sense of community that they had in the villages and towns growing up in Mac.

That may have been more than you wanted or needed

Until there is resolution to the ethnic tension in Macedonia and no more nepotism and jobs for the boys, it will never really be a magnet to industry. It is a shame. I have a (real) Hugo Boss shirt that was manufactured in Macedonia that I am proud to wear. Things can be made there to a high level of quality. I was seriously putting together a business initiative for something of significance to the country a few years ago. But the whole country is fickle and inconsistent. It simply is not a place for the average investor.

I think a lot has to do with what Phoenix alluded to earlier...the government corruption, the bribes, the imbalance of power, the lack of faith in institutions, etc. You nailed it with the inconsistency, and I'd add reliability issues with that inconsistency remark.

[vicsinad]

Gocka:

Thanks for that insight and summary -- something I needed to read

[Volokin]

Interesting insight, Dragan, Vic and Gocka. Thanks.

Definitely thought-provoking.

[Risto the Great]

I know the older first generation did very well. That was the case here as well. But I really only wanted to know about the recent migrants from Macedonia to USA.

And new Macedonian immigrants that come here tend to be better off than impoverished "Americans" because the community is still tight enough to support them, and of course they usually come if they already have some family to help them out (they'll get help in the way of finding a job, a place, or a car).

This is it. Same goes for the ones that came to Australia. So, from a Macedonian's (in Macedonia) perspective, they really are worse off in Macedonia and they are bitter about how they have no opportunities. Because the reality is they would work their arses off in USA (or some other developed nation) and be rewarded for their sacrifices and efforts. Naturally, their kids will become Western scum and blow it all later.

Cleaners here in Australia who barely speak English will make about AUD $45,000 per year. If a couple do that and live modestly, they can accumulate some savings and build a life.

So, someone like our dear brother Dragan would willingly leave Macedonia behind for better opportunities abroad. He would readily rank Macedonia lower than USA because of the limited opportunities.

[DraganOfStip]

@ Vic,
I appreciate your opinion and your moral values when it comes to material wealth and stuff,but I am yet to meet a macedonian immigrant that has returned from the country he immigrated to saying "I was wrong,Macedonia is better,I'll remain here".
Almost 60% from my "crew" that hung out together during our younger days now live abroad.And even though some of them complain that they work long hours (I know,I worked 12-13 hours a day on the cruise ship with no days off whatsoever for six months continuously) and have no spare time at all,none has ever complained that he can't pay his bills and pay for his meal or etc etc.
However,they do have the time (and means) to go to resorts like Cannes,Ibiza,Monaco,Aspen,Las Vegas,Tel Aviv, even a tour in India/Shri Lanka and South Africa.Ironic ,isn't it?
A recent study showed that 11% of the population in Macedonia (250 000 people) have permanently moved abroad in the last 10 years,and that number doesn't include the temporary workers that go apple picking in Italy,strawberry picking in Brittain or olive picking in Greece (when it's the season for it),waiters/waitresses in Croatia,Montenegro or Greece during the summer holiday season etc etc.
Or as the saying goes: maybe money can't buy happiness,but it's better to cry in a ferrari than on bare foot.

@ Philosopher,
I'm not an economy expert so I can't tell how could we improve our life standard,but getting rid of the corruption,bribe,party requirements for employment etc would be a good start.
Countries like Slovakia,Czech republic,Poland etc could be a good example to learn from.The former eastern block European countries had even more devastating communist regime than Yugoslavia,but now they outgun Yugoslav countries' economies in every way (they're still far from the economies of Germany or Brittain for example but hey,they're on the right track).


@ Risto,
Yes,if I get a chance to get out of here,I'd take it in a heartbeat.


@ Gocka,
I can only say to you what I say to all Macedonian immigrants that complain about their life being better here than there - why don't you come back?
Macedonia's borders are open to everyone,return home and live again the life that fulfilled you before.It's that simple.



Finally,I don't know if I shared this example here,but it gives a perfect overview of the current system in power:
This guy from Veles worked on cruise ships for quite a few years and he had a good amount of money stashed aside to start his own business home and ditch the sea life abroad.
He wanted to open his own restaurant but he got caught in the corruption net and ran into problems like building inspectors and municipality employees he had to bribe to issue him a building permit,sanitary inspectors and Ministry of Tourism officials for obtaining a license to operate,local recketeers to not wreck his place once completed etc etc so the guy gave up on the idea and returned to the ships,promising he would never start a business in Macedonia again.
At least a dozen people could have been employed there (chefs,waiters,dishwashers,cleaners etc) and foreign-earned money be invested home instead of abroad ,but greed got in the way.
As long as this system works here,Macedonia will be stuck in the Middle Ages forever.

[Tomche Makedonche]

So... Gocka, what type of motorcycle are we talking about?

[kompir]

Seems like I've opened up a can of worms

[Gocka]

Actually Dragan I am coming back, I've wanted to come back for years now, like I said its all about the debt. You cant just pick up and leave the USA like you can Macedonia. I also have a few friends who have done the same. I am actually pretty close in cleaning up all my affairs here in the USA. What sucks for me is we had lots of workable land but now its all ruined. We had a vineyard, apple orchards, small cherry farm, a few other fields that we used to plant wheat and other vegetables for ourselves. It would actually take a lot of time and money to get all of that back to a productive state. That's another reason I cant just get up and leave. All in due time though.

@ Gocka,
I can only say to you what I say to all Macedonian immigrants that complain about their life being better here than there - why don't you come back?
Macedonia's borders are open to everyone,return home and live again the life that fulfilled you before.It's that simple.

haha if your an enthusiast you''ll be disappointed, I have a green Kawasaki Ninija 1000. I need to get rid of it before it gets rid of me if you know what I mean.

So... Gocka, what type of motorcycle are we talking about?

[Gocka]

I can tell you about recent migrant. More than half don't make a permanent life here. Many come work and go back because they don't like the living conditions and culture here in the USA. Its a little different in Canada and Australia because the lifestyle is a little more tolerable, but the USA is very anti social and individualistic. Not to mention the social benefits here in the USA are basically zero, where in Canada and Australia they are much stronger and provide for a much more stable life. Most people who I know who have came recently to the USA don't want to build a life here. They just want to save up some money so they can modernize their lives in Macedonia. Most pensioners also end up going back to Macedonia lately because its so expensive to live here. An American pension isn't enough to live off of here, but in Macedonia its 10x the average salary. We may actually see a huge influx of Pensioners returning to Macedonia in the next decade as the 70's and 80's immigrants reach retirement.

I know the older first generation did very well. That was the case here as well. But I really only wanted to know about the recent migrants from Macedonia to USA.