An observation...

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  • kompir
    Member
    • Jan 2015
    • 537

    An observation...

    I've been reading a lot of the threads in the Politics section and I've come to a realisation. And it is as follows.

    The Balkan region is far too preoccupied with petty, trivial politics and as a region, is ignoring (at its peril) the politics of far greater import. I consider the role private banking plays in the economies of all of the countries on the Balkan peninsula as far more important politically as the consequences of the actions of private banks are far more devastating than any ethnically driven political table thumping.

    Think about what has happened in Macedonia since the nation became "sovereign":

    - Private debt levels have skyrocketed, moreso in the formative years of the nation, but actully accelerated in the early years of the 21st century. I attribute this to far more readily available access to credit (cheap or otherwise) than pre-nationhood.
    - Unemployment has not declined as a percentage of the population since attaining statehood.
    - Wages have not increased in line with inflation.
    - Foreign interests are having a far greater say in the affairs of the country than ever before.
    - Corruption is as rife today as it ever has been, despite the token efforts of the government to eradicate it.

    All of this has happened on the watch of either political "team". Much like here in Australia with the Labor and Liberal parties, I put it to the forum that ultimately, there are no differences between SDSM and the current incarnation of VMRO. I also put it to the forum that they are but the two sides of the same political coin.

    The name issue with the Greeks, the threat posed by Albanian extremists and their expansionist modus operandi are but distractions designed to keep the attention off the real issues the nation has. For when you ask Klime ribarot what concerns him the most, he'll tell you that losing sleep at night as he ponders where the next meal will come from is at the top of his list of priorities.

    And yes, a large percentage of the population is in that predicament.

    Ultimately, I contend that the real power (political and otherwise) lies with an entity that transcends the various governments of the Balkans.

    Discuss.
    Last edited by kompir; 02-22-2015, 09:00 PM.
    Доста бе Вегето една, во секоја манџа се мешаш
  • vicsinad
    Senior Member
    • May 2011
    • 2337

    #2
    I think that applies to the majority of the world's countries, not just the Balkan nations. Private financial interests have for centuries paved the way for wars, suffering and poverty. It's a struggle that transcends countries and regions, and it's a never ending saga. The whole globe is the board and while the players change, the game doesn't. Greed, power, hatred and selfishness are traits that are not going to be bred out of the human species any time soon.

    Regarding your Klime example: I do not believe the situation is that bad in Macedonia...most Macedonians are not concerned where there food is going to come from, but rather how they can compete with the rest of their countrymen and Europe and the world with the accumulation of goods and job creation...even the "poor" villagers have enough to eat.

    Unfortunately there are tons of problems facing Macedonia, as well as all countries. Now, just because Macedonia shares some similar problems as other Balkan countries, and as other world countries, I don't think that warrants considering country specific problems as petty or trivial. The name issue and extremism has serious consequences for Macedonia and Macedonians.

    Which issue should be a priority? I don't know. They all affect the culture, identity and livelihoods of Macedonians in different ways. I believe, however, that many of the problems can be solved, or settled, if countries, corporations and peoples respect one essential rule: self-determination...the people decide. Whether it's the building of dams in villages or the name of the country, self-determination should rule all.

    And that's a problem not going away from the world any time soon. That's the fight Macedonians have against financial institutions, corporate interests, government officials, Albanian extremists, and chauvinists in Greece and Bulgaria.

    Comment

    • kompir
      Member
      • Jan 2015
      • 537

      #3
      Centuries... I was thinking more along the lines of millenia.

      I was in Macedonia last year during the summer (July) and I was blown away by how much had changed since my previous visit. My Klime example was based on my most recent experience. In 2008, by and large most weren't concerned about their next meal, the agrarian nature of the country ensured that people were fed. But last year, I was hearing story after story of things being that dire that many were Klime. This wasn't just from city dwellers, this was from many through the Pelagonski sela, the breadbasket of Macedonia. So many crop failures and the cost of living skyrocketing will cause such anguish.

      In that case, I would consider country-specific problems as trivial, even though on their own they are quite pressing. It is only when one looks at the big picture do they pale into relative insignificance. To elaborate further, I'll bring into the discussion Abraham Maslow. He has his detractors, but his hierarchy of needs idea has loads of merit, with much research validating the idea that humans have universal needs. Private banking and the march towards corportocracy threatens the two basest needs: physiological and safety. In the context of Maslow, I would place the name issue at the top of the pyramid as identity is a part of national self-actualization.

      You mentioned self-determination. The powers-that-be have fought tooth and nail to shut it down, which they have achieved via social programming and is most evident in the West; political apathy in the US and Australia is rampant.

      Hypothetical time.
      We somehow have the ability to remove Greece and Bulgaria from the equation. How does Macedonia's situation improve? What do they gain from the absence of their respective table thumping and chauvinism?
      Доста бе Вегето една, во секоја манџа се мешаш

      Comment

      • vicsinad
        Senior Member
        • May 2011
        • 2337

        #4
        Originally posted by kompir View Post

        I was in Macedonia last year during the summer (July) and I was blown away by how much had changed since my previous visit. My Klime example was based on my most recent experience. In 2008, by and large most weren't concerned about their next meal, the agrarian nature of the country ensured that people were fed. But last year, I was hearing story after story of things being that dire that many were Klime. This wasn't just from city dwellers, this was from many through the Pelagonski sela, the breadbasket of Macedonia. So many crop failures and the cost of living skyrocketing will cause such anguish.
        I was there in the summer as well, and I heard a few stories like that too...but it was usually from young people who managed to have enough denari to go to the café every day/night. And if they lived in the village, they refused to work their parents' land or farms because they have a college degree and farming is not going to bring them their happiness, aka the material possessions that everyone else seems to have that they don't. I'm not saying there aren't people who have it pretty bad -- there are. But it's not really affecting their physiological requirements.

        Though I do agree that it is getting worse because family and small farms are closing at record rates and people are moving to urban centers looking for work that is not there. Some of this is externally cause and some, as I alluded to earlier, is self-inflicted: Macedonians do not want the agrarian lifestyle, especially the younger generation, but they know there is hardly much work in the industrial or white collar job market, so they are putting themselves in this position to either have no work or move abroad. They'd rather have no work or move than go back to farming. Shoot, it's why so many Macedonians left the villages in the 60s and 70s. Opportunity to do something other than live off the land.


        In that case, I would consider country-specific problems as trivial, even though on their own they are quite pressing. It is only when one looks at the big picture do they pale into relative insignificance. To elaborate further, I'll bring into the discussion Abraham Maslow. He has his detractors, but his hierarchy of needs idea has loads of merit, with much research validating the idea that humans have universal needs. Private banking and the march towards corportocracy threatens the two basest needs: physiological and safety. In the context of Maslow, I would place the name issue at the top of the pyramid as identity is a part of national self-actualization.
        I'm not a fan of Maslow: I believe you can't really classify such needs based on a hierarchy as a lot of them are interwoven and essential parts of human nature. Still, yes, private banking and corporatization threatens Macedonians' needs and culture. But the name issue (and the consequences of changing or not changing the name) can also be a part of: love/belonging; esteem; and safety.

        You mentioned self-determination. The powers-that-be have fought tooth and nail to shut it down, which they have achieved via social programming and is most evident in the West; political apathy in the US and Australia is rampant.
        That's very true.

        Hypothetical time.
        We somehow have the ability to remove Greece and Bulgaria from the equation. How does Macedonia's situation improve? What do they gain from the absence of their respective table thumping and chauvinism.
        I think our grandparents know the answer to that question: WW2 and the Greek Civil War are good places to start. If Gr and Bg are removed from the equation, Macedonians feel safer in the physical, psychological and cultural senses. They can reallocate that time and those resources against other threats to their culture and lifestyles, and to fulfilling other needs.

        Comment

        • DraganOfStip
          Senior Member
          • Aug 2011
          • 1253

          #5
          Originally posted by kompir View Post
          For when you ask Klime ribarot what concerns him the most, he'll tell you that losing sleep at night as he ponders where the next meal will come from is at the top of his list of priorities.
          When I stated some time ago on this forum that the full bellies of my family is my top priority I was almost crucified here.
          I'm glad there's someone else that sees the real consern of Macedonians in the republic.
          The Macedonian "average Joe" today isn't preocupied whether it's DPMNE or SDSM in power,whether he's "FYROMian" or Macedonian,whether he's in EU and NATO or not etc. ,but as Kompir pointed out - how to provide the next meal at the table.
          There are Macedonians that took DUI party membership so that they can get some well-paid government job.I can't say that I blame them,but it is really sad how far Macedonians would go these days to ensure their families existence.
          For most of us Macedonians here, - nous sommes Klime.
          ”A people that elect corrupt politicians, imposters, thieves and traitors are not victims... but accomplices”
          ― George Orwell

          Comment

          • Big Bad Sven
            Senior Member
            • Jan 2009
            • 1528

            #6
            Good post Kompir, however i only agree with about 90% with what you have had to say.

            I agree that there is a certain 'political elite' that controls the populations in the west, the so called top 1% controlling the remaining 99%. You will find these people sitting in the USA, UK, Brussels, Berlin and to a lesser extent Paris. I also agree on your views on the 'banking system' as well.

            These people have ruined the balkans and eastern europe, and are now trying to make their tentacles reach into the middle east and Africa.

            Of course if you try talk about this you will be considered a nut job conspiracy theorist or 'anti-american'. I guess this goes back to your point on social conditioning.

            In the past i used to look down on the old Yugoslavia and other communist european countries; but looking back now there are too many people from the former yugoslavia and also other eastern european countries such as Romania and even eastern germany that view those days as 'good times'. Maybe Capitalism worked in the past but it seems like it is spiraling out of control and eliminating the middle class....

            I agree on what you said about VMRO and SDSM being two sides of the same coin. I wish both where eliminated and new (better) parties would take their place. In saying that i was old enough to remember how treacherous SDSM was so if i had to chose one party, it would be VMRO.

            I also agree that people in the balkans are not looking at the 'bigger picture' and that we are mere pawns. And that things like the 'name issue' are distractions used by the greek and macedonian government.

            What i dont agree on with you:
            1) Our neighbours where big reasons as to why the country has gone to shit. Remember the Greek embargo in the early 90s? That pretty much put macedonia 5-10 years behind every one in the balkans and killed the economy. You could even say macedonia has never recovered from it. I put a lot of blame on the pathetic state of macedonians economy on the Greeks.
            Serbia taking all of macedonia's military and leaving it defenseless? Serbia pushing close to 500 thousand shiptar refugees into macedonia which sent the country into chaos and not function properly?
            The shiptars have also pretty much have made macedonia into a country that is non functional. Which western country wants to invest in a country where almost a quarter of it is self governed and could erupt into another war as well?

            I agree the sad state of affairs in Macedonia is due to macedonian incompetence, greed, corruption and short sightedness - but you have to be fair and realize our neighbors have contributed to a lot of this.


            2) I think its bit of a stretch people in macedonia are close to starvation and are close to having nothing to eat. A lot of macedonians on my facebook still go to Ohrid every summer. A lot even still go to greece, albania, Montenegro etc as well. Most older people always complain that young people just go to bars to drink and smoke every night.
            The situation in macedonia in my opinion is that its not where the next meal is going to come from but that there is no real career progress in macedonia, or will be paycheck be delayed for another month again.

            I also believe macedonia is a much better position then countries like albanian, kosovo, bosnia, Ukraine, Moldova and on the same level as Serbia. Remember we dont have people fleeing the country in great numbers like in kosovo. And we have macedonian men going to Albania or Ukraine to marry desperate women wanting to get out - we dont have the same situation with macedonian women.

            Comment

            • DraganOfStip
              Senior Member
              • Aug 2011
              • 1253

              #7
              Originally posted by Big Bad Sven View Post
              ...there are too many people from the former yugoslavia and also other eastern european countries such as Romania and even eastern germany that view those days as 'good times'. Maybe Capitalism worked in the past but it seems like it is spiraling out of control and eliminating the middle class.....
              Couldn't agree more.

              Originally posted by Big Bad Sven View Post
              1) Our neighbours where big reasons as to why the country has gone to shit. Remember the Greek embargo in the early 90s? That pretty much put macedonia 5-10 years behind every one in the balkans and killed the economy. You could even say macedonia has never recovered from it. I put a lot of blame on the pathetic state of macedonians economy on the Greeks.
              Serbia taking all of macedonia's military and leaving it defenseless? Serbia pushing close to 500 thousand shiptar refugees into macedonia which sent the country into chaos and not function properly?
              The shiptars have also pretty much have made macedonia into a country that is non functional. Which western country wants to invest in a country where almost a quarter of it is self governed and could erupt into another war as well?

              I agree the sad state of affairs in Macedonia is due to macedonian incompetence, greed, corruption and short sightedness - but you have to be fair and realize our neighbors have contributed to a lot of this.
              Also correct.


              Originally posted by Big Bad Sven View Post
              2) I think its bit of a stretch people in macedonia are close to starvation and are close to having nothing to eat. A lot of macedonians on my facebook still go to Ohrid every summer. A lot even still go to greece, albania, Montenegro etc as well. Most older people always complain that young people just go to bars to drink and smoke every night.
              The situation in macedonia in my opinion is that its not where the next meal is going to come from but that there is no real career progress in macedonia, or will be paycheck be delayed for another month again
              To help the diaspora members understand life in Macedonia,here are the results of the latest research regarding the economic situation of Macedonian citizens:


              Or to cut things shorts,I'll highlight the most important points
              (Google translated,for those that don't speak Macedonian):
              28.6% of the population in the country lives in poverty

              46% of the population are unemployed and poor

              31% of children aged 0 to 17 years are poor

              32,000 denars is syndication cart (minimum necessary means for a decent life

              a 4-membered family)

              21.500 denars is the average salary in the Republic of Macedonia

              71% of employees in Macedonia receive below average salary

              29% of employees in Macedonia receive a salary of 8,000 to 12,000 denars

              82.5% of the total number of unemployed in Macedonia are long-term unemployed (waiting for a job for more than 4 years)

              51.7% of the young are unemployed
              I think that about says enough.
              Last edited by DraganOfStip; 03-01-2015, 03:54 PM.
              ”A people that elect corrupt politicians, imposters, thieves and traitors are not victims... but accomplices”
              ― George Orwell

              Comment

              • vicsinad
                Senior Member
                • May 2011
                • 2337

                #8
                Dragan:

                Yes, the economic conditions are pretty bad. But those numbers don't paint the entire picture and rather are the same thing repeated over and over again (Macedonians don't have "work" (it doesn't mean they don't have land to work on) and Macedonians don't make a lot of money compared to other Europeans. But the people aren't starving; there's not a poverty akin to the slums of certain Asian, African and South American cities (eg. Macedonians aren't selling their kidneys to the black market by the thousands just so they can get food on the table). And Macedonians are happy. At least consider this: Macedonian kids are the happiest in the world.

                Macedonian children - the happiest in the world

                September 03rd 2014

                The children in the tiny southern European country of Macedonia are the happiest in the world, whereas those in the United States and Turkey are the saddest. This rating is based on a new report by the Britain-based Children's Society organization. The "Good Childhood Report," published last week, is based on a ranking of the feelings of happiness and satisfaction of some 50,000 children in 39 countries.



                America is so "rich", yet so unhappy. Macedonia is so "poor", yet so happy. So no, I don't think those numbers say "enough" about the conditions in Macedonia. If you're curious, the kids in the above survey were asked about the following: family and home life, money and/or belongings, health, friends, appearance, school. Out of all those things, they felt happier than all other children surveyed. Not such a gloomy picture of Macedonia, is it?

                Comment

                • Phoenix
                  Senior Member
                  • Dec 2008
                  • 4671

                  #9
                  Originally posted by vicsinad View Post
                  Dragan:

                  Yes, the economic conditions are pretty bad. But those numbers don't paint the entire picture and rather are the same thing repeated over and over again (Macedonians don't have "work" (it doesn't mean they don't have land to work on) and Macedonians don't make a lot of money compared to other Europeans. But the people aren't starving; there's not a poverty akin to the slums of certain Asian, African and South American cities (eg. Macedonians aren't selling their kidneys to the black market by the thousands just so they can get food on the table). And Macedonians are happy. At least consider this: Macedonian kids are the happiest in the world.






                  America is so "rich", yet so unhappy. Macedonia is so "poor", yet so happy. So no, I don't think those numbers say "enough" about the conditions in Macedonia. If you're curious, the kids in the above survey were asked about the following: family and home life, money and/or belongings, health, friends, appearance, school. Out of all those things, they felt happier than all other children surveyed. Not such a gloomy picture of Macedonia, is it?
                  I think the Macedonian people deserve a better leadership, regardless of which party is in power, they deserve higher levels of employee rights and consumer and legal protection...the living standards of most Macedonians is far too low for a country that has good demographics and big potential.

                  It's not good enough that Gruevski's team continues to broadcast it's 'successful' investment programs and the creation of new jobs when the norm is still that many workers go unpaid for months on end. Or that nepotism, bribery and party affiliations remain a persons only qualifications toward gainful employment.

                  Macedonia needs a 21st century mindset but it's leadership has been mired by Ottoman era culture and self serving.

                  In regards to the happiness of young children, sadly they quickly grow up and that happiness is just as quickly extinguished.

                  Comment

                  • Nikolaj
                    Member
                    • Aug 2014
                    • 389

                    #10
                    I do believe that happiness would extinguish pretty fast; they should do a graph with 15-20, 25-30 etc... where it would most likely be next to or worse than America.

                    Then again, the majority of students are travelling to different countries to pursue university degree's and work so that would not longer be categorized as Macedonia.

                    Comment

                    • vicsinad
                      Senior Member
                      • May 2011
                      • 2337

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Phoenix View Post
                      I think the Macedonian people deserve a better leadership, regardless of which party is in power, they deserve higher levels of employee rights and consumer and legal protection...the living standards of most Macedonians is far too low for a country that has good demographics
                      That's true.

                      the living standards of most Macedonians is far too low for a country that has good demographics and big potential.
                      Potential for what?

                      It's not good enough that Gruevski's team continues to broadcast it's 'successful' investment programs and the creation of new jobs when the norm is still that many workers go unpaid for months on end. Or that nepotism, bribery and party affiliations remain a persons only qualifications toward gainful employment.
                      No, it's not. And when the people want to stand up and take away his power, they will. But they keep on voting him and VMRO into office.

                      In regards to the happiness of young children, sadly they quickly grow up and that happiness is just as quickly extinguished.
                      What do you mean?
                      Last edited by vicsinad; 03-01-2015, 10:20 PM.

                      Comment

                      • vicsinad
                        Senior Member
                        • May 2011
                        • 2337

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Nikolaj View Post
                        I do believe that happiness would extinguish pretty fast; they should do a graph with 15-20, 25-30 etc... where it would most likely be next to or worse than America.
                        What, do you think Americans' happiness is increasing as they get older? It's probably downhill for everyone across the board until retirement, in which case, still, probably at least half the seniors in the US are on a variety of meds, in a nursing home, or spend the whole day watching TV, whereas Macedonian seniors are active, have social circles, and have people taking care of them that love them.

                        Quality of life in Macedonia, in my opinion, outweighs the quality of life in the US. Economic opportunities in the US far outweigh those in Macedonia.

                        But I think my original point is this: Macedonians aren't starving, and most Macedonians, probably nearly all Macedonians, are not really worried about where their next meal will come from.

                        Comment

                        • Nikolaj
                          Member
                          • Aug 2014
                          • 389

                          #13
                          Originally posted by vicsinad View Post
                          What, do you think Americans' happiness is increasing as they get older? It's probably downhill for everyone across the board until retirement, in which case, still, probably at least half the seniors in the US are on a variety of meds, in a nursing home, or spend the whole day watching TV, whereas Macedonian seniors are active, have social circles, and have people taking care of them that love them.

                          Quality of life in Macedonia, in my opinion, outweighs the quality of life in the US. Economic opportunities in the US far outweigh those in Macedonia.

                          But I think my original point is this: Macedonians aren't starving, and most Macedonians, probably nearly all Macedonians, are not really worried about where their next meal will come from.
                          Nope, I said it would become parallel with America's (not implying American's become happier).
                          Implying they would be just as unhappy as grown up Americans or worse.

                          You're right they aren't starving, I feel it's more on the basis of opportunities to pursue whatever they want to do with their lives.

                          Comment

                          • DraganOfStip
                            Senior Member
                            • Aug 2011
                            • 1253

                            #14
                            Originally posted by vicsinad View Post
                            Dragan:

                            Yes, the economic conditions are pretty bad. But those numbers don't paint the entire picture and rather are the same thing repeated over and over again (Macedonians don't have "work" (it doesn't mean they don't have land to work on) and Macedonians don't make a lot of money compared to other Europeans. But the people aren't starving; there's not a poverty akin to the slums of certain Asian, African and South American cities (eg. Macedonians aren't selling their kidneys to the black market by the thousands just so they can get food on the table). And Macedonians are happy. At least consider this: Macedonian kids are the happiest in the world.
                            I can't believe you actually wrote the above segment.

                            Yes,Macedonians HAVE work,and do you know what they work and how much (and how often) do they get paid for that work?
                            For Christ's sake just look at the stats man,71% of employees earn less than the average paycheck (21500 denars equals 350 EUR,392 USD or 500 AUD depending on the currency you use),while the minimum means for a decent life are 32000 denars (520 EUR,583 USD or 750 AUD,take your pick).Meaning,all those people can barely make their ends meet every month and you're telling me macedonians are happy?!Are you listening to yourself?
                            Add to that,almost a third of the employed people earn between 8000 and 12000 denars (130 to 200 EUR).In a 21st century European country all these stats are devastating by every standard.

                            And you're saying a country isn't poor until the population starts selling their kidneys to survive?Is that the red line that defines poverty?Not last time I checked.

                            Also,you take the kid's happiness as a reference to the general population's happiness?Good luck with that.
                            Does the survey say how many kids were included in it?
                            Kid's biggest consern is whether he'll be on time for his favorite cartoon or whether his friend will have a better toy than him.And that's it.Phoenix and Nikolaj made some valid points about this.

                            Now,I haven't lived abroad and thus I can't say how good/bad it is there,but I live in Macedonia my whole life and i think I can give you a pretty good picture of how hard life here is from first hand.
                            And believe me,it isn't like what you present it to be at all.

                            Originally posted by vicsinad View Post
                            ... at least half the seniors in the US are on a variety of meds, in a nursing home, or spend the whole day watching TV, whereas Macedonian seniors are active, have social circles, and have people taking care of them that love them.

                            Quality of life in Macedonia, in my opinion, outweighs the quality of life in the US.
                            Half the seniors in the US can afford cruising in the Bahamas with their pensions too (trust me,I worked on a cruise ship and nearly 70% of all the passangers were old people),while in Macedonia they can hardly afford anything with it.
                            And as meds are conserned - old people here use a variety of meds as well,my grandparents spent a lot of money on pills.It's common everywhere in the world when it comes to old people.
                            As for your last sentence - in my opinion no,it doesn't.
                            Last edited by DraganOfStip; 03-02-2015, 06:04 AM.
                            ”A people that elect corrupt politicians, imposters, thieves and traitors are not victims... but accomplices”
                            ― George Orwell

                            Comment

                            • Philosopher
                              Senior Member
                              • Sep 2008
                              • 1003

                              #15
                              Originally posted by Big Bad Sven View Post
                              In the past i used to look down on the old Yugoslavia and other communist european countries; but looking back now there are too many people from the former yugoslavia and also other eastern european countries such as Romania and even eastern germany that view those days as 'good times'. Maybe Capitalism worked in the past but it seems like it is spiraling out of control and eliminating the middle class....
                              My two cents is that the "capitalism" in the Balkans (and the world in general) is not really pure capitalism, but crony capitalism.

                              When you mix crony capitalism with Balkan politics, you have deep poverty and corruption.

                              The rich get richer, the poor get poorer, and the middle class disappears.

                              Some Macedonians long for the old Tito days, and this number is probably growing by the day.

                              Socialism and communism are pretty ingrained in the Balkans, including Greece.

                              Comment

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