Largest ancient tomb found of a prominent Macedonian

[Dejan]

What country is 'Slavic'? In Macedonia we speak Macedonian

[Risto the Great]

Like what? How is it that while a plenty of ancient Macedonian artifacts, inscriptions e.t.c have been discovered so far in excavations in various archaeologocal sites in ROM, there has been never found anything that could be "not helpful" at all to the Greek cause?

Explain how many international archaeologists are attending this dig. Their involvement at the beginning and their ability to share their findings without any form of scrutiny from Greek authorities.

I wouldn't be looking at RoMacedonia for best practice in this regard. But that is another matter.

[Risto the Great]

That got a laugh from everyone.

Greeks laughing always make me laugh.

I have just returned from Aegean Macedonia and more analysis has confirmed my family have been a Hellenic speaking and native in the region for more than 500 years, if not longer?

Well done Poli. Glad to hear you found those 500 year old data backups.

[Poligiros]

Greeks laughing always make me laugh.

Well done Poli. Glad to hear you found those 500 year old data backups.

Hi Risto,

I honestly don't understand your attitude? We can share the Macedonian name, however the ancient Hellenic legacy is never going to change as it is written in stone. You cant deny me the right to be Macedonian when a portion of my family are native to the area and have always been Hellenic. Its a fact.

There was a historical book at the local pharmacy translated as "Polygyros people and the place", I could not put it down! It went through the history of Polygyros from ancient through to modern day, with sketches, old photos of the town with our house, family names of older generations including some of my soi. In fact even during Turkish occupation the town was renamed to "Polyro".

I believe that our peoples should stop the hate and propaganda and establish positive relationship.

The status quo is not going to change in Aegean Macedonia, no amount of debate will grant the Republic miraculous access to the coast.

A cousin my age living in Thessaloniki is married to an endopia from Edessa whose granparents speak your Macedonian dialect. She considers herself 100% Hellenic and states villages near the border speak both languages. Its not healthy to maintain a dream that will never become reality, 99% of people feel Greek in Aegean Macedonia and borders will not change.

In addition, I spoke to some ROMacedonia people they don't care man, they are only interested in having a good time and think its ridiculous about the diaspora fighting over irrelevant issues. Most local Hellenes felt the same way as they talk local politics and decreasing living standards.

In addition, there were numerous Turkish tourist in Thessaloniki this year spending big $$$. The Thessaloniki lord mayor was clever enough to renovate Ataturks' ancestral home and utilize it as a tourist attraction. Even traditional enemies are becoming friends.

Book yourself a trip to Aegean Macedonia, enjoy the place, people food and visit some historical sites.

Regards

[Bill77]

Hellenes such as my family

Hellene ????? Lol
Please......give me a break.

There was a historical book at the local pharmacy

Was it right next to the Psilocybin and Phencyclidine???

I could not put it down!

Yes....Psilocybin, Phencyclidine amongst other hallucinative drug paraphernalia messes with your mind and are known to be addictive.

[DraganOfStip]

What about the native Makedoni of the region i.e. Hellenes...

Your government exiled,killed and to some degree assimilated the native "Makedoni" of the region on several occasions in recent history,and no,they were not Hellenes.
On this very forum you'll encounter many of their descendants.

We always made up at least 40% of the population from Ottoman statistics...

Ottoman statistics aren't based on ethnicity but on religion.Every christian that was under the Bulgarian Exarchate was listed as Bulgarian,those under the Greek church were listed as Greeks,and those under the Serbian church as Serbs.If someone was praying in a Greek church that doesn't automatically make him Greek in ethnic sense.So,what those stats mean (if accurate) is that those 40% were followers of the Greek Orthodox Church,notning else.

more analysis has confirmed my family have been a Hellenic speaking and native in the region for more than 500 years, if not longer?

How convenient.Can you share these results with us?
I honestly can't believe someone's lineage can be traced that many generations back in history,especially in such a turbulent area like the Balkans.

I consider myself a Macedonian

I can consider myself Japanese,does that make me one?
You are Greek,I am Macedonian.And neither of us can change that.

... can read ancient Macedonian inscriptions using Greek.

Ancient Macedonian inscriptions are very rare (only a handful of Ancient Macedonian words are known today) so I really doubt your claim.
It is more possible that they read Koine inscriptions which was used as the lingua franca at the time.

These regions have always been populated by Greek Byzantine remnants who were descendants of Macedonian tribe.

OK,first thing: "Greek" and "Byzantine" are not one and same thing.A "Byzantine" was every citizen of the Empire,just like "Roman" was also in the Roman Empire.There was no "Byzantine" nor "Roman" ethnicity.So just because the lingua franca of the Empire was Greek,the empire itself wasn't Greek by default.
And second thing: show us the proof that they "were descendants of Macedonian tribe."

I think that more than qualifies my type of Greek ethnicity as Macedonian, much like a Spartan-Greek, Thessalian-Greek, Thracian-Greek.

Once again:Greek is Greek and Macedonian is Macedonian.There's no Macedonian-Greek as you wanted to imply.
It's not a case like Californian-American,Iowan-American,Kentucky-American,or Bavarian-German,Rheinland-German,Prussian-German etc.
it's just not the same.

[Stojacanec]

Greetings,

That is a defamatory comment about Turko Christians? What about the native Makedoni of the region i.e. Hellenes such as my family? We always made up at least 40% of the population from Ottoman statistics, situated mainly in the southern/eastern regions of Aegean Macedonia.

I have just returned from Aegean Macedonia and more analysis has confirmed my family have been a Hellenic speaking and native in the region for more than 500 years, if not longer?

Amfipolis is situated 80 km north east of my town. I consider myself a Macedonian, ancestors come from the ancient Macedonian precinct of Olynthos and can read ancient Macedonian inscriptions using Greek. These regions have always been populated by Greek Byzantine remnants who were descendants of Macedonian tribe.

I think that more than qualifies my type of Greek ethnicity as Macedonian, much like a Spartan-Greek, Thessalian-Greek, Thracian-Greek.

Can any of you trace the same lineage?

In addition, it was nice to meet people from the Republic enjoying our coastline, without the extreme delusional views.

Finally, in addition to a few family members, my koumbaros' father is a hardline Greek hating RO-Macedonian from Aegean Macedonia. He considers himself Slavic too and believes that ancient Macedonians were the original Slavic speakers and the language spread north. A lot of his points of conversation in Greece this year conclude that the Greek government covers up ancient artifacts found in Aegean Macedonia. The comeback from a local Hellene along the lines, "we are so lazy and incompetent and cant do anything properly, how can we possibly remove and hide all ancient Slavic inscriptions and amazingly replace them with ancient Greek?"

That got a laugh from everyone.

Poli, I am born in R.Macedonia and only two steps from the modern greek border.

You can't tell me that the landscape in A.Macedonia hasn't changed markedly in the last 100 years. I'd say alot like what you'd see in my parts was the norm 100 years ago accross the border and right down to Salonika.

The annexing of A.Macedonia is a product of what you see today. You cannot make generalisations about that area just because you analised one family. Come on man, now who's the comedian.

The whole Macedonian from Greece thing was invented within the last 100 years and it really gathered steam in the last 25 years.

Now my general statement is closer to the truth than yours. Statistics of population exchanges, name changes and policy changes go against you.

[Philosopher]

Greetings,

That is a defamatory comment about Turko Christians? What about the native Makedoni of the region i.e. Hellenes such as my family? We always made up at least 40% of the population from Ottoman statistics, situated mainly in the southern/eastern regions of Aegean Macedonia.

I have just returned from Aegean Macedonia and more analysis has confirmed my family have been a Hellenic speaking and native in the region for more than 500 years, if not longer?

Amfipolis is situated 80 km north east of my town. I consider myself a Macedonian, ancestors come from the ancient Macedonian precinct of Olynthos and can read ancient Macedonian inscriptions using Greek. These regions have always been populated by Greek Byzantine remnants who were descendants of Macedonian tribe.

I think that more than qualifies my type of Greek ethnicity as Macedonian, much like a Spartan-Greek, Thessalian-Greek, Thracian-Greek.

Can any of you trace the same lineage?

In addition, it was nice to meet people from the Republic enjoying our coastline, without the extreme delusional views.

Finally, in addition to a few family members, my koumbaros' father is a hardline Greek hating RO-Macedonian from Aegean Macedonia. He considers himself Slavic too and believes that ancient Macedonians were the original Slavic speakers and the language spread north. A lot of his points of conversation in Greece this year conclude that the Greek government covers up ancient artifacts found in Aegean Macedonia. The comeback from a local Hellene along the lines, "we are so lazy and incompetent and cant do anything properly, how can we possibly remove and hide all ancient Slavic inscriptions and amazingly replace them with ancient Greek?"

That got a laugh from everyone.

Poligiros, what is your personal opinion regarding the origin of Macedonians (as in the Republic of Macedonia)? Who do you think they are?

[George S.]

Its all" greek" so that they could laND GRAB THE MACEDONIAN LAND.THink of all the propaganda that has spawned all in the name of macedonia.Of course none of it was greek,The reason being there were indigenous people called endopi original owners of the land.The speaking of another language doesn't make one a native of that land /language.It is written that ONLY the royalty house spoke greek ONly for commercial reasons.It was written that the soldiers in alexandrs army preferred the macedonian language to speak to each other.Alerxander it is written coached and spoke to his men IN MACEDONIAN NOT GREEK.MACEDONIA HAD THEIR OWN ALPHABET AND LANGUAGE.THis is SHOCKING for greece as it doesnt want to admit it.THe macedonian alphabet is older and is silly to say that Macedonians spoke GREEK only.THIS is BS the macedonians spoke their own LANGUAGE MACEDONIAN.WHat ever evidence there is about ancient macedonian is beyond proof that is the case a clear distinction.

[George S.]

agamoi how can you prove that its all greek.THe only reason its greek is that it was taken from macedonians in 1912 balkan wars.You are finding things on macedonian territory isn't that stealing???You beleive what you beleive as you are brainwashed to beleive it.We are living breathing macedonians.At least the blood flowing is macedonian and not greek.
THe fact that you find greek inscriptions is not proof that macedonians were greek.
ALso im aware of how things are being made to look greek when the are not.Also do you think the police are there to make sure there are no looters??I think they are there to make sure that the press or prying eyes make sure that they aren't discovered but are concocting stuff.
How do you explain the security of the vergina toomb when they had heaps of stuff covered up and not for access to the general public or any prying eyes???What doctoring must have occured,falsifications etc.Please explain the amount of articles that have moved from one part of greece to the northern greece especially Macedonian artifacts.I had relatives go to the athens museum they said no pictures are to be taken of certain artifacts.Also why there wasn't much macedonian artifacts as they were moved to northern greece to prop things up.
Also greece has received over time valuable artifacts from ROM.People selling artifacts for money.For example in rom was found a macedonian soldiers helmet greece was willing to buy it for more than 1 million marks.Why so that they could say that they found it on greek territory.Its all part of greek propaganda.

[Agamoi Thytai]

Where did you get your information (Cassander claims of innocence) from, if you don't mind me asking?

I tried searching for it but no luck. Thanks in advance.

Oh, I didn't read it nowhere, it's just my personal opinion. I assume that Cassander wouldn't be that naive to confess his crime and building such a magnificent tomb for Roxane and Alexander's son would be a kind of alibi for him. Αnyway, talking about assumptions, I read in a Greek site that the the tomb perhaps belongs to Antipater, Cassander's father. Antipater was acclaimed by all succesors as "strategos-autokrator" (general-emperor) of Europe. And imho, we can't exclude the possibility that even Cassander himself may have been buried in that tomb.

agamoi how can you prove that its all greek.THe only reason its greek is that it was taken from macedonians in 1912 balkan wars.You are finding things on macedonian territory isn't that stealing???

That specific region of Macedonia where this tomb is discovered was always a Greek stronghold, inhabited mainly by native Greeks who spoke only Greek. This is confirmed by numerous travellers, authors, historians, geographers and other persons that visited Macedonia in Ottoman time and left their first hand account. Like this one, George F. Abbott in 1903:

"About three hours after leaving Serres we reached
Nigrita, the chief village of the district, and it was a
relief to find oneself in a place requiring no greater
linguistic attainments than a knowledge of Greek.
The whole country south of Serres, with the exception
of the Mohammedan settlements, is purely Hellenic".

https://archive.org/stream/taleoftourinmace00abbo#page/217/mode/1up

Or this one, William Martin Leake, 1835:

In one hour and forty minutes from the
hut, we arrive at the Tjai-agsi, or the river's
mouth, as the Turks call the ferry of the Strymon,
though it is situated a quarter of a mile from the
sea. The river is about 180 yards in breadth.
A store-house for the grain of the Strymonic
plains, which is exported from hence in large
quantities to Constantinople, stands on the right
bank....Though the walls are little more
than heaps of ruins, enough remains to show that
there was a large quadrangular inclosure, with
other smaller detached buildings. The greater
part of what now remains is evidently of the time
of the Byzantine Empire. By the native Greeks
the ruins are most erroneously supposed to be
those of Amphipolis...
...Among the Greeks, the gulf, as I before observed,
generally bears the name of Rendina, which was
an imperial-Greek town and bishop's see, occupy-
ingaposition in ornearthe pass of Arethusa '. The
gulf is sometimes known also as that of Stavros or
of Orfano.

https://archive.org/stream/travelsinnorthe05leakgoog#page/n183/mode/1up

Note that the local Greeks were aware of Alexander's history:

The bay, plain, paleokastro, and skala, are all
known by the name of Lybjadha, which the natives
derive from that of the mother of Alexander, and
not without probability ; since the omission of the
initial o, the third case, and the conversion of Ολυμπιάδα into Λυμπτζιάδα, are all in the ordinary course
of Romaic corruption. A situation a little below
the ser4i of the Aga at Kastro, where some frag-
ments of columns are still seen, is said to have
been the site of Alexander's mint. Both Turks
and Greeks, and even the poorest peasants, are
full of the history of Alexander, though it is some-
times strangely disfigured, and not unfrequently
Alexander is confounded with Skanderbeg.

https://archive.org/stream/travelsinnorthe05leakgoog#page/n176/mode/1up

So in what sense the annexation of that region to Greece in the Balkan wars should be considered as a "historical theft" (which is what you obviously imply)?

[Agamoi Thytai]

The inscriptions are not ancient Macedonian. Or have you done the presently impossible/improbable and discovered the script of the ancient Macedonians, where professionals haven't been able to???

Αs long as all ancient Macedonian inscriptions that are discovered are written in Greek there is no reason to believe there existed a distinct Macedonian language. And note that it was the Macedonians who spread the Greek language to the Eastern Mediterranean and made it the lingua franca of the time. Before Alexander's conquests Greek was not the lingua franca. Throughout the Persian empire, f.i. Aramaic was for centuries not only the lingua franca but the official language of the empire as well:

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/32043/Aramaic-language

So why should Macedonians replace Aramaic with Greek in those regions, when the various peoples of the Persian empire were for centuries accustomed to the use of the former and obligate them to learn an unknown language?
The assumption that while Macedonians conquered almost the half of the known world of their time they gave up their own language in order to adopt a foreign one, just out of admiration to the advanced Greek civilization holds no water. Romans admired Greek civilization too yet they never gave up their language, instead they cultivated it to the highest degree.

[DedoAleko]

Agamoi Thytai, why you say Koine is greek? Koine=greek?

[Philosopher]

Αs long as all ancient Macedonian inscriptions that are discovered are written in Greek there is no reason to believe there existed a distinct Macedonian language. And note that it was the Macedonians who spread the Greek language to the Eastern Mediterranean and made it the lingua franca of the time. Before Alexander's conquests Greek was not the lingua franca. Throughout the Persian empire, f.i. Aramaic was for centuries not only the lingua franca but the official language of the empire as well:

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/32043/Aramaic-language

So why should Macedonians replace Aramaic with Greek in those regions, when the various peoples of the Persian empire were for centuries accustomed to the use of the former and obligate them to learn an unknown language?
The assumption that while Macedonians conquered almost the half of the known world of their time they gave up their own language in order to adopt a foreign one, just out of admiration to the advanced Greek civilization holds no water. Romans admired Greek civilization too yet they never gave up their language, instead they cultivated it to the highest degree.

Your argument is incorrect.

The conclusion is inescapable: there was a largely ethnic Macedonian imperial administration from beginning to end. Alexander used Greeks at court for cultural reasons, Greek troops (often under Macedonian commanders) for limited tasks and with some discomfort, and Greek commanders and officials for limited duties. Typically, a Greek would enter Alexander's service from an Aegean or Asian city through the practice of some special activity: he could read and write, keep figures or sail, all of which skills the Macedonians required. Some Greeks may have moved on to military service as well. In other words, the role of Greeks in Alexander's service was not much different from what their role had been in the service of Xerxes and the third Darius. If one wishes to believe that Alexander had a policy of hellenization-as opposed to the incidental and informal spread of Greek culture-the evidence must come from sources other than those presented here. One wonders-archaeology aside-where this evidence would be. We have seen that not only has the idea of World Brotherhood been put to rest and the idea of a Fusion of Persian and Macedonian ruling classes made doubtful, but that the value of Greeks to Alexander for policy reasons cannot be sustained by evidence. In short, there is no World Brotherhood, no Fusion, and no evidence of a policy of hellenization, if that hellenization were intended to be accomplished through the medium of ethnic Greeks.

Borza's analysis is take from the article “Ethnicity and Cultural Policy at Alexander's Court” in Makedonika pp 149-158.

Note the phrase “archeology aside”. Well archeology included, Borza's analysis is still correct.

Study Suggests Alexander Not So Great
June 19
By Lee Dye

— Way back in the fourth century B.C., a young Alexander the Great thundered across what is now the Middle East in a bloody mission that ranks among the most brilliant military conquests in history.

And according to almost any textbook, Alexander, though barely out of his teens, paved the way for the rapid spread of Greek culture throughout that tortured land.

But according to some intriguing research, the young Macedonian's achievements may not have been as great as his name implies. The evidence suggests quite strongly that Greek material culture, at least, flourished as far away as the coast of what is now Israel at least a century before Alexander's conquests.

The findings dispute the widely held belief that Hellenization, or the spread of Greek culture, "went into high gear" on the heels of Alexander's military exploits, says Andrew F. Stewart, an art historian and archaeologist at the University of California, Berkeley, who is heading up an international team of experts investigating the matter.

"What we think we can prove is that's not true," Stewart says.

The evidence also suggests that Greek culture did not increase, at least in that area, under Alexander.

"If anything there was a bit of retrenchment," Stewart says.

Artifacts Suggest Earlier Greek Culture

Why should anyone care, other than a bunch of art historians? Simply this. It may seem logical to assume that military victories in places like Iran, Afghanistan, Israel and other hot spots will lead to the spread of the culture and values of the conquering forces. But beneath a small mound overlooking two ancient sand-filled harbors, archaeologists are uncovering evidence that "decouples material culture from military conquest," Stewart says.

For nearly two decades Steward has been digging into the sandy soil where a Phoenician town once thrived on the eastern shore of the Mediterranean Sea, in what is now Israel. The site is extraordinarily rare in that it has remained relatively undisturbed for two millennium.

No modern city rose on the ruins of Dor, as has happened in so many areas of archaeological interest, and the nearest village was an Arab settlement just to the south, abandoned in 1948 after the Israeli war of independence. It was replaced by a kibbutz, Nachsholim, a popular retreat for beach lovers who flock to the white sands carried along the Mediterranean shoreline by the northward thrust of the Nile River.

Stewart and other researchers from Berkeley, as well as Hebrew University in Jerusalem and several other American, Canadian and South African universities, have recovered more than 100,000 artifacts from the site, mostly pottery. They tell a graphic story of how that community changed from a Phoenician culture steeped in boat building and seamanship to a veritable outpost of Greek material culture by 400 B.C., well before Alexander's exploits began in 336 B.C.

Stewart refers to it as "material" culture because there is no evidence yet of literary, or political, Greek culture spreading into that area. The artifacts show only that the people who lived there, or the people who moved there, were deeply involved in the production of material items, like pottery, that was clearly Greek in nature.

Military Man

And they were into it big time.

"It tells you that the community on that site was buying lock, stock and barrel into Greek material culture, as opposed to merely sporadically importing stuff," Stewart says.

That's significant because it shows that these people were Greeks, or really wanted to be at least partly like Greeks, long before they had heard of Alexander. So "Hellenization" didn't come in with Alexander. It was there to greet him when he first arrived.

But does that mean Alexander was overrated by historians? Not necessarily. His military might was something extraordinary.

The young Alexander, who had been tutored by Aristotle, ascended to the throne of the Macedonian region when his father, Phillip II, was assassinated in the summer of 336 B.C. Surrounded by enemies, he moved quickly to gain control of the rest of Greece, although he was not yet 20 years old.

Historians consider him a brilliant military tactician with an exceptional ability to rally his troops in the face of what might have seemed overwhelming challenges. With 35,000 troops he overcame armies many times that size, although many experts believe the strength of the opposition has been greatly overestimated by historians. But whatever the odds, in three years time he blazed a trail from what is now Turkey to Egypt, dismantling the Persian Empire.

He fell ill in Babylon in 323, and died there at the age of 33.

Greeked-Out?

There is no doubt that Greek culture became deeply entrenched in the major cities under his rule, many of which he named Alexandria, but the story in the hinterlands, where "most people lived" is still unclear, Stewart says.

It was well established at Dor long before Alexander's rule, but the archaeological record is so incomplete that it's impossible at this point to say whether Dor was the exception or the rule. It seems likely that the same cultural transition happened throughout much of the area, but no one knows for sure.

What is clear is that on the heels of Alexander's triumphs, some of the people of Dor grew disenchanted with all things Greek. Some artifacts show that "sometimes the locals were trying to reach back to their roots," rejecting both the style and substance of Greek pottery.

They probably grew tired of Alexander and his generals.

"After all, the Macedonians were pretty harsh overlords," Stewart says.

Yet Greek culture refused to go away. The researchers have pieced together one extraordinary piece of a mosaic floor. At the center of the mosaic is a mask worn by a young Greek man in comic theater, complete with an intricate headband of various colored glass and pottery. It is believed to have been created in Dor around 100 B.C., most likely by an itinerant artisan from Greece.

"Everything about it is Greek," Stewart says.

The centerpiece is the young man in the mask.

"We call him the Young Dandy of Dor," Stewart adds.

And he, too, is very Greek.

He came along after Alexander, but he was preceded for centuries by less spectacular Greek artifacts, revealing that the spread of culture was not entirely dependent on military conquest. It's much more complex than that.

https://abcnews.go.com/Technology/story?id=97611&page=1&singlePage=true

[Bill77]

Αs long as all ancient Macedonian inscriptions that are discovered are written in Greek

Expected, as Ancient Macedonian alphabet did not exist. Secondly By using Greek alphabet does not suggest one is Greek. If you think contrary to this, then Greeks are Phoenicians since Greeks adopted (just like the ancient Macedonians adopting another alphabet) the alphabet from the Phoenicians. Further more, by your thinking, currently all English speaking nations that use the English alphabet would be Latinos. Write a letter and explain that to the Queen of England.

there is no reason to believe there existed a distinct Macedonian language.

Plenty of Evidence. Would evidence be justifiable reason to believe?