Bosnia: Politics and Current Events

[Onur]

Let's not get carried away. I have respect for Turkey as a country now and the Turkish people who have and are working together with the MAcedonian people, who have passed the point of hatered and can be friends. Empires were build and torn apart, knowing how to move on is important. I believe both Turkey and Macedonia have done that.
The past is just that, the past however it should not be forgotten. It should be used to learn from it. I am not going to agree that the Turks were a better choice for us blah blah because that is just lame. The Macedonian people suffered greatly under the Turks, men were killed,women were raped, many children taken away as Janicari to come back and kill their relatives. Many villages were burnt and many danoci were paid in blood.Just because someone didn't make you pray to Allah doesn't mean you had it easy. They ruled, killed, raped and did some horror thing to the Macedonians and it should not be forgotten. I disagree totaly that it was the smaller evil, it was evil, that should be enough. Both Turkey and MAcedonia should remember and always use the past to learn from mistakes and never repeat them,

Yes i agree, yoke is a yoke, no matter if it was good or evil. For example the Turkish people never lived under someone`s yoke and i cant even imagine that. I believe it was painful for you as well. The thing is, i believe the Turks and Macedonians got away with it after 100 years. We moved on from the painful effects of the destruction of Ottoman Empire and trust me it was equally painful for the Turks if not more but unfortunately Greeks, Bulgars and maybe some Serbs still under the crisis of it and they do whatever it takes to keep the "Turkish image of bugaboo" alive even after 100 years.

[Prolet]

Onur, Whats your opinion on Turkey being the only country to open three diplomatic offices in Macedonia? An Embassy in Skopje and two consulates in Bitola and Ohrid.

Onur, Perhaps the Austria-Hungary Empire would have been a better choice?

[Onur]

Onur, Whats your opinion on Turkey being the only country to open three diplomatic offices in Macedonia? An Embassy in Skopje and two consulates in Bitola and Ohrid.

Turkey supports Macedonia in every way because we know that if ROM wouldn't existed, your lands would be split up between aggressive Greeks and Bulgars and we never want that neither for you nor the Turks who lives in there.

Also millions of people in Turkey have emotional ties with Macedonia(including Aegean Macedonia). Did you know that we have hundreds of poems and folk songs related with Macedonia?

Onur, Perhaps the Austria-Hungary Empire would have been a better choice?

You should ask this to the Hungarians but i know that there is a common consensus in the Hungary about the Hapsburgs always tried to assimilate them after the Ottoman reign ended at 18th century and they always wanted to isolate them from their Euroasiatic roots and culture and only used them as their peon soldiers.

[Buktop]

Yeah, those big bad man like Izebegovic, Karadzic,Tudjman and ESPICIALLY that bastard Metodija Andonov-Čento, all bastards that should have been shot on the spot because they thought for a free and indapendant croatia,bosnia, macedonia etc.

They all had rocks in their heads, they should have loved to live in a fake country and celebrate a artificial nationality and culture called yugoslavia

Cento didn't plan the murder and rape of women and children, Cento didn't reduce the meaning of human life to mere dog shit.

You are a moron if you even try to equate the pieces of shit like Tudjman, Izebegovic and Karadzic with Cento. This war wasn't about independence, but about power and greed, under the guise and promise of independence. If you cannot see that and wish to make heroes out of racist, murderers then you are no better than they are.

[Big Bad Sven]

Cento didn't plan the murder and rape of women and children, Cento didn't reduce the meaning of human life to mere dog shit.

You are a moron if you even try to equate the pieces of shit like Tudjman, Izebegovic and Karadzic with Cento. This war wasn't about independence, but about power and greed, under the guise and promise of independence. If you cannot see that and wish to make heroes out of racist, murderers then you are no better than they are.

So Tito sent Tudjman, Izebegovic and Karadzic to jail because of the bosnain war????
Ok........

[Big Bad Sven]

Onur, Whats your opinion on Turkey being the only country to open three diplomatic offices in Macedonia? An Embassy in Skopje and two consulates in Bitola and Ohrid.

Onur, Perhaps the Austria-Hungary Empire would have been a better choice?

There was a stage in the Austro-Hungarian empire when there going to be three peoples that ruled the empire: the germans, the magyars and the "slavs".
If this worked out it would have been ideal for every one except for the Romanians and italians.

But as Onur said the problem with the Austro-Hungarian empire was that every ethnic side was trying to stab every other ethnic side in the back and diminish their role and influence in the empire, hence why the germans were always more advanced and one step ahead of the magyars and why the magyars always put in obstacles for the "slavs" and romanians to get more influence.

[Buktop]

So Tito sent Tudjman, Izebegovic and Karadzic to jail because of the bosnain war????
Ok........

No, "Izetbegovic went to jail for the first time in Marshal Tito's Yugoslavia in 1946, when he and a group of Bosnian Muslim intellectuals organized a Muslim antithesis to Tito's secular Marxist program and named it "Young Muslims." The end result was that he and 12 other radical Muslims were arrested and charged with "associating for the purpose of hostile activity and jeopardizing the constitutional order" and for "acting from the standpoint of Islamic fundamentalism and Muslim nationalism." Although tried and sentenced to three years of imprisonment, he was soon released as a first offender.

The second brush with the law was more serious and came as a result of his authorship of The Islamic Declaration: A Programme for the Islamization of Muslims and the Muslim Peoples (1970, reprinted 1990). The work recalls nostalgically the greatness of the Ottoman Empire and urges Muslims to return to life as prescribed by the Koran. Izetbegovic also wrote Islam Between East and West (1976) and Problems of Islamic Revival (1981).

It was The Islamic Declaration, however, that caused the greatest splash. Not only did Izetbegovic condemn the modernist reformers in several Islamic countries, he virtually declared war on everything non-Islamic when he asserted the incompatibility of Islam with non-Islamic religions. "There can be neither peace nor coexistence between the Islamic religion and non-Islamic political and social institutions," said Izetbegovic. Serbs and Croats pointed to such statements when explaining why they resisted living in an unitary state dominated by Izetbegovic and his party."

Tudjman, Was arrested and sentenced to 3 years for openly protesting Yugoslav policy as well as radical advocacy of nationalism.

In his book “Wastelands of Historical Truth” he states “Genocidal violence is a natural phenomenon in harmony with the societal and mythologically Divine nature. Genocide is not only permitted it is also recommended, even commanded by the Word of the Almighty, whenever it is useful for the survival or the restoration of the earthly kingdom of the chosen nation, or for the preservation and spreading of its one and only correct faith”.

Karadzic was never sentenced to jail time.

Stop being so ignorant, this is not about anti-nationalism, this is about 3 sadistic individuals who lack even the most basic human decency and who manipulated their respective peoples and used them to satisfy their greed and lust for power under the false promise of independence.

If you are seriously trying to equate the scum of the earth with honorable men in an attempt to honor their "devotion" to their nation and people, then you are truly sick in the head.

[Big Bad Sven]

No, "Izetbegovic went to jail for the first time in Marshal Tito's Yugoslavia in 1946, when he and a group of Bosnian Muslim intellectuals organized a Muslim antithesis to Tito's secular Marxist program and named it "Young Muslims." The end result was that he and 12 other radical Muslims were arrested and charged with "associating for the purpose of hostile activity and jeopardizing the constitutional order" and for "acting from the standpoint of Islamic fundamentalism and Muslim nationalism." Although tried and sentenced to three years of imprisonment, he was soon released as a first offender.

The second brush with the law was more serious and came as a result of his authorship of The Islamic Declaration: A Programme for the Islamization of Muslims and the Muslim Peoples (1970, reprinted 1990). The work recalls nostalgically the greatness of the Ottoman Empire and urges Muslims to return to life as prescribed by the Koran. Izetbegovic also wrote Islam Between East and West (1976) and Problems of Islamic Revival (1981).

It was The Islamic Declaration, however, that caused the greatest splash. Not only did Izetbegovic condemn the modernist reformers in several Islamic countries, he virtually declared war on everything non-Islamic when he asserted the incompatibility of Islam with non-Islamic religions. "There can be neither peace nor coexistence between the Islamic religion and non-Islamic political and social institutions," said Izetbegovic. Serbs and Croats pointed to such statements when explaining why they resisted living in an unitary state dominated by Izetbegovic and his party."

Tudjman, Was arrested and sentenced to 3 years for openly protesting Yugoslav policy as well as radical advocacy of nationalism.

In his book “Wastelands of Historical Truth” he states “Genocidal violence is a natural phenomenon in harmony with the societal and mythologically Divine nature. Genocide is not only permitted it is also recommended, even commanded by the Word of the Almighty, whenever it is useful for the survival or the restoration of the earthly kingdom of the chosen nation, or for the preservation and spreading of its one and only correct faith”.

Karadzic was never sentenced to jail time.

Stop being so ignorant, this is not about anti-nationalism, this is about 3 sadistic individuals who lack even the most basic human decency and who manipulated their respective peoples and used them to satisfy their greed and lust for power under the false promise of independence.

If you are seriously trying to equate the scum of the earth with honorable men in an attempt to honor their "devotion" to their nation and people, then you are truly sick in the head.

Get off your moral high horse you twit

Firstly, I don’t put Cento on the same level as those three people you are whining about, he is much more greater then them and much more purer. But the fact is all of these men were sent to jail because they were nationalists, not yugo-zombies like you.

But the real issue here is that Cento was sent to jail because he was a “nationalist’ and put Macedonia first instead of your precious fake bastard country Yugoslavia. He was a nationalist, promoted Macedonianess over titoism and wanted a independent or semi-independent Macedonia from Yugoslavia.
Tudjman and Izebegovic may have pretty extreme beliefs, but they were sent to jail just for the same reason: to promote nationalistic feelings to their people and to get some sort of independence or semi-independence from Yugoslavia.

The fact that you have gone for the cheap blow and used the Bosnian war and other forms of emotional blackmail to try distance the truth that Cento was sent to jail on the same “crimes” that Tudjman and co were sentenced to as well.

And finally, I just find it amazing that you actually honour Cento. You being the biggest Tito lover here I would have thought he would be enemy number 1 to you?

[Buktop]

Get off your moral high horse you twit

Firstly, I don’t put Cento on the same level as those three people you are whining about, he is much more greater then them and much more purer. But the fact is all of these men were sent to jail because they were nationalists, not yugo-zombies like you.

But the real issue here is that Cento was sent to jail because he was a “nationalist’ and put Macedonia first instead of your precious fake bastard country Yugoslavia. He was a nationalist, promoted Macedonianess over titoism and wanted a independent or semi-independent Macedonia from Yugoslavia.
Tudjman and Izebegovic may have pretty extreme beliefs, but they were sent to jail just for the same reason: to promote nationalistic feelings to their people and to get some sort of independence or semi-independence from Yugoslavia.

The fact that you have gone for the cheap blow and used the Bosnian war and other forms of emotional blackmail to try distance the truth that Cento was sent to jail on the same “crimes” that Tudjman and co were sentenced to as well.

And finally, I just find it amazing that you actually honour Cento. You being the biggest Tito lover here I would have thought he would be enemy number 1 to you?

I'm sorry, can you show me a quote or a text where Chento said that we should kill and murder people because they are not Muslim or Catholic or Bosniak or Croat or Orthodox or Macedonian? It was not the same crime and you are using this to attack me because of Yugoslavia?

If you weren't such a Yugophobe you might actually learn something about the history of Macedonia and not avoid the bits that don't suit you. It's also funny that you are trying to turn this Bosnian blame game into a defense of Nationalism when the only thing I blamed was scum like the aforementioned individuals. I called you out on your bull, and if I must quote you

Yeah, those big bad man like Izebegovic, Karadzic,Tudjman and ESPICIALLY that bastard Metodija Andonov-Čento, all bastards that should have been shot on the spot because they thought for a free and indapendant croatia,bosnia, macedonia etc.

you put Chento right snugly alongside the three stooges... Now do you want to apologize, or are you going to keep calling me a Yugoman-Tito-lover to avoid admitting you are wrong?

[Big Bad Sven]

I'm sorry, can you show me a quote or a text where Chento said that we should kill and murder people because they are not Muslim or Catholic or Bosniak or Croat or Orthodox or Macedonian? It was not the same crime and you are using this to attack me because of Yugoslavia?

If you weren't such a Yugophobe you might actually learn something about the history of Macedonia and not avoid the bits that don't suit you. It's also funny that you are trying to turn this Bosnian blame game into a defense of Nationalism when the only thing I blamed was scum like the aforementioned individuals. I called you out on your bull, and if I must quote you you put Chento right snugly alongside the three stooges... Now do you want to apologize, or are you going to keep calling me a Yugoman-Tito-lover to avoid admitting you are wrong?

The "islamic declaration" that Izetbegovic written in the 70's was seen as by the Yugoslav's as a declaration as a call for introduction of Sharia law in Bosnia, that was his crime and that was the reason as to why the book was banned.
The qoutes that you love to use are also used by serb nationalists to smear Izetbegovic and bosniaks. There are some western authors, like Noel Malcolm, state that the Serb nationalist interpretation of the Declaration was false propaganda and offered a more benevolent reading of the declaration. Explaining that it was "a general treatise on politics and Islam, directed towards the entire Muslim world; it is not about Bosnia and does not even mention Bosnia" and that "none of these points can be described as fundamentalist." Malcolm argues that Izetbegović's views were much more thoroughly expressed in his later book, Islam between East and West, where he "tried to present Islam as a kind of spiritual and intellectual synthesis which included the values of West Europe."

In regards to Izetbegovic going to prison, he along with 12 other bosniak nationalists were sentenced to prison on the crimes for: hostile activity inspired by Muslim nationalism, association for purposes of hostile activity and hostile propaganda.
The verdict was strongly criticised by Western human rights organisations, including Amnesty International and Helsinki Watch, which claimed that the case was based on "communist propaganda", and the accused were not charged with either using or advocating violence. The following May, the Bosnian Supreme Court conceded the point with an announcement that "some of the actions of the accused did not have the characteristics of criminal acts" and reduced Izetbegović's sentence to twelve years. In 1988, as communist rule faltered, he was pardoned and released after almost five years in prison.



BUKTOP: No where does it state that Izetbegovic was sentenced to jail for wanting to "kill and murder people because they are not Muslim or Catholic or Bosniak or Croat or Orthodox or Macedonian". Alijia was sentenced for being a nationalist bosniak and muslim, which you cant have in commie Yugoslavia. You are just towing the serbian and yugocommie line.

[Big Bad Sven]

Now about Franjo Tudjman

He was arrested by yugoslav authorities because of his involvment in the "Croation Spring". He was sentenced to 2 hyears jail, it was meant to be a 15-20 year sentance but Tito intervened and made the penalty less hmmmmm the plot thickens...
The Croatian Spring was a national movement that was actually set in motion by Josip Broz Tito and Croatian party chairman Vladimir Bakarić in the climate of growing liberalism in the late 60s. Later when Tudjman was involved it turned into more a Croat nationalist movement for Croatia to to get some sort of freedom from yugoslavia.

Tuđman was trialed again in 1981 for having spread "enemy propaganda", while giving an interview to the Swedish TV on the position of Croats in Yugoslavia and was sentenced to three years of prison, but again he only served a portion (this time eleven months). So basically it was a bull shit "crime" that he was sentenced with and was jailed for being a nationalist croat and not a "yugoslav".

[Prolet]

BBS, Do you know that Tudjman was the youngest General in SFRJ? He was Tito's right hand man at one stage.

[Buktop]

BBS: No where did I state that Izetbegovic was sentenced to jail for wanting to "kill and murder people because they are not Muslim or Catholic or Bosniak or Croat or Orthodox or Macedonian". Alijia was sentenced for associating for the purpose of hostile activity and jeopardizing the constitutional order.

I am not arguing about, nor have I mentioned the Yugo policy on nationalism, I clearly stated that both Tudjman and Izebegovic served jail time, and I cited the relevant quotes from the books that had them arrested. Clearly, in our modern society, when someone says that "genocide is acceptable and necessary" or that "There can be neither peace nor coexistence between the Islamic religion and non-Islamic political and social institutions", even though we believe we have freedom of speech, these sort of statements would be viewed as hostile, inciting racial/religious hatred, or posing a danger to themselves or others. I'm not familiar with many of Karadzic's earlier works, but hearing his speeches and comments puts him in the same boat as the other two stooges. These people are psychopaths, not nationalists.

How you can even defend these people from a nationalistic stand point is beyond me. Wow "they were patriots because they fought for their country", if being a patriot means murdering, raping, and genocide of others, then I would rather be considered a traitor or according to you, a Yugoman.

[Buktop]

If you have the time, I would like you to answer this question

can you show me a quote or a text where Chento said that we should kill and murder people because they are not Muslim or Catholic or Bosniak or Croat or Orthodox or Macedonian?

Then understand why I do not dare put Chento on the same level as the aforementioned stooges.

[Big Bad Sven]

If you have the time, I would like you to answer this question

can you show me a quote or a text where Chento said that we should kill and murder people because they are not Muslim or Catholic or Bosniak or Croat or Orthodox or Macedonian?

Then understand why I do not dare put Chento on the same level as the aforementioned stooges.

Cento never did say such things.

Izebegovic never did produce documents that said Bosniaks should kill all catholics and orthodox Christians because they are not muslims. The quote from Izebegovic "There can be neither peace nor coexistence between the Islamic religion and non-Islamic political and social institutions" to me doenst sound like he wants mass genocide of all non believers of Allah or kill non-Muslims, its him saying that muslims cant live in a non-political and social environment. I think you are trying a bit to hard to make something out of nothing here Buktop, stop over reacting….
And as I have posted earlier even western historians think that quote is over used by Serbian nationalists, and it appears now people like you…..

In regards to Tudjman, well yeah I cant really defend him in saying genocide is acceptable, but WHO or WHAT is he referring to? Maybe he is referring to the genocide of the Italians who lived in Croat and Slovenia Istrian lands that lived there for thousands of years that the Yugoslavs eliminated after WW2. Or the expulsion of Macedonian Muslims and Turks from Macedonia?
So its ok for Tito to do a bit of his own genocide to certain peoples in Yugoslavia (his enemy’s) but it’s a horrible inhuman crime for Tudjman to mention genocide in one of his books?????

I asked a question to you before and wonder if you can answer it:

How can you, a very strong and passionate Yugoslavian, support some one like Cento who wanted a free and independent Macedonia. A person who was jailed by your Tito, and a person who was a enemy of your Yugoslavia???

And finally I think you are a bit confused here, I don’t put Cento on the same level as those other two mentioned. As I have said numerous times on this thread. I am just saying that both Cento, Tudjman and Izebegovic were sentenced to jail because they participated in nationalist and separatist movements for their respected nationalities. Hence they were the enemy’s of Yugoslavia as they either did not want to be apart of it, or wanted their respected peoples to have more rights/changes/freedom etc. That is the ONLY connection I see between them, and that’s the point I have been trying to get across to you Buktop.
Do you get it now?!?!