Bosnia: Politics and Current Events

[Prolet]

It was not like they say, the Bosnians are no different to the Torbeshi we have, they are Serbs and Croats who changed their religion during the ottoman era. They seem to play the victim card all the time but they dished out as much as they got.

[Onur]

The Muslims are becoming masters of propaganda. As well as this well orchestrated action was the individual reburial of the remains discovered in mass graves. Their remains were discovered ages ago and the scientific sorting of the remains began almost immediately but somehow all concluded just in time for a mass reburial in individual graves exactly on the anniversary. The parading of thousands of caskets creates strong symbolism. I guess even the dead have their roll to play in the propaganda war.

These people didn't die by natural causes and it`s just a respect to the victims to pull their remains out from the pits to put in a proper grave so their families can visit those as well. Also, not all the remains have been examined yet. AFAIK, only about 6000 of 8000+ victim`s identity has been concluded.

This is not propaganda either. This is a memorial and everyone have to remember this so it wont happen again in the future.


Do you know whats the real propaganda?
Serbs mourn for the people in a memorial who have died in a battle they had lost vs Turks. The battle of Kosovo at the year 1389. They pray for their Prince and I think they honor him as a Saint just because he managed to kill the Sultan. They do nationwide memorial ceremonies for it every year and it was the 621th year last week. I saw it on the news.

I call that a pure propaganda, not the Srebrenica events.

[Prolet]

Onur, It is a war crime but its not Genocide if it was there wouldnt be any Muslims left in Bosnia. Lets not forget the real picture here, it was the americans who financed the Islamists in Bosnia, brought in Mudjahadeens who killed in the most brutal way by chopping heads off. War Crimes where committed from all sides, however it seems that only the Serbs and the Croats got jailed in the Hague while the Albanians and Bosnian Muslims didnt get prosecuted in any cases.

They are simply used as pawns by USA, They are their victims now and tomorrow they will probably be their enemies like the Taliban in the 1980s vs the Soviets and now.

On the contrary Onur, what is your opinion of Turkey and Serbia signing a visa free resime for citizens to travel in these two countries? Now that you dont need a Visa will you perhaps do a tour of Bulagria,Macedonia and Serbia?

[fyrOM]

More so Prolet. With the breakup of Yugoslavia it became a free for all land grab. The Serbs tried it as did the Croats and Muslims. Problem was most areas had a mix each to differing proportions but a mix no doubt so neighbours turned on each other killing their neighbours and burning their homes to terrorise their ethnic group to flee or die but ofcourse lets not forget for this terror to happen it was not in the form of a letter but murder of people en masse. It is strange that only the deaths of the Muslims are reported leaving history the impression only the Muslims died and the others were this horrible army akin to the
Nazis. Selective history.

In the parts where the terrorise Muslims would not leave and became captured territory you have the examples of Srebrenica. A very ugly part of history but selective reporting only makes it more ugly to the Truth but less ugly to the politicians and the west pursuing their continued line of supporting the Muslims in the former Yugoslavia and Albania at the expense of everyone else and the Truth as an act of persuasion to the wider Muslim world that the USA and the west are not against Muslims just terrorist who happen to be Muslim while the west attack Iraq for her oil and Afghanistan for her drugs.

Besides the very name of Bosnia Herzegovina tells you it is a mixed up part of the Balkans forced to live together. Bosnia and Herzegovina are two separate territories as is Dalmatia.

[Onur]

Onur, It is a war crime but its not Genocide if it was there wouldnt be any Muslims left in Bosnia. Lets not forget the real picture here, it was the americans who financed the Islamists in Bosnia, brought in Mudjahadeens who killed in the most brutal way by chopping heads off. War Crimes where committed from all sides, however it seems that only the Serbs and the Croats got jailed in the Hague while the Albanians and Bosnian Muslims didnt get prosecuted in any cases.

They are simply used as pawns by USA, They are their victims now and tomorrow they will probably be their enemies like the Taliban in the 1980s vs the Soviets and now.

On the contrary Onur, what is your opinion of Turkey and Serbia signing a visa free resime for citizens to travel in these two countries? Now that you dont need a Visa will you perhaps do a tour of Bulagria,Macedonia and Serbia?

It obvious that you have no idea what happened in srebrenica.

Srebrenica was a security zone covered by only Dutch battalion in the name of UN. Also it was a zone under blockade by the Serbs. So people had no guns and any weapon. When Serbian soldiers tried to invade it, Dutch soldiers just surrendered them and Serbs taken them as a hostage.

Serbs had a deal with the Dutch commander to hand over Srebrenica for the return of Dutch hostages and they agreed by having a champagne;


You can see Ratko Mladic and Dutch commander here


Then Serbs gathered every men above 14 years of age in town and killed them all in just 4 days, threw their bodies in to the pits.

Now, whats this got to do with the USA money, Mujaheddins and stuff??? Also it wasn't the Bosnians who started the war. Actually i cant even call that a war because Bosnians had no proper army or ammunition but on the other hand, Serbs had it all as well as their Greek Orthodox Mujaheddins support.

[fyrOM]

Onur Bosnians had no proper army or ammunition you cant be serious. Did they just throw stones. Many weapons came in secretly to the Bosnians and Croatians. I don’t know if we can split the seconds about who shot at who first. They were all in. The Bosnians and Croatians did not want anything to do with Serbs or Yugoslavia so they want to kick out or kill their neighbours as well as each other. A break up into 3 parts was expected and no one wanted their neighbours left in their part.

Problem was they were too mixed up. Who was going to give up their land. The concentration of this group or that group were like blobs on the map separated by their enemy. These separate blobs could not become viable countries nor have corridors to other concentrations blobs of their kind so the west declared no break up would be allowed and Bosnia Herzegovina became a country. Also to allow a break up would signal a failure of the west’s multicultural policy and every country should be multicultural.

Unfortunately when wars like this happen there are many people who do not want to be part of the war and get caught up in the wind so they run to safety like the un camp. But sometimes people don’t care if you did the crime or someone else who happens to be of your kind even if you don’t know them and have never meat them. The want for revenge killing means many innocent people get killed for nothing they have done.

What I said about propaganda is ofcourse it is respect to have individual burials instead of being left in mass graves but this has been many years known and the identification of individuals was not done all at the same time so if it is only to have separate graves and respect they didn’t need to wait a long time and make a parade of the coffins in a collective burial exactly on the anniversary. This part was staged for maximum propaganda. Also no mention at all about Croatian and Serbian civilians who were killed in their villages and their houses burnt. If someone does not know everything that happened and only watch the west’s news now they could easily think only the Muslims got killed and were only civilian victims at the hands of a second Nazi like army. When the truth gets distorted by selective reporting it is propaganda.

By no way am I trying to diminish the suffering of the Muslims in Bosnia and neither do I count the Croatians or Serbs as blameless or Macedonia’s friends so there is no need for me to support them in any way but to ignore the civilian deaths on their side and deliberately wait for a group burial on the anniversary of Srebrenica can only be described as done for both respect of the dead and to get some propaganda mileage. It is easy for the organisers to think they are dead anyway and need to be buried respectfully anyway rather than do it one at a time as the bodies are identified the dead might as well earn some propaganda points for the Bosnians.

[Onur]

The groundbreaking documentary by Dutch public broadcaster IKON The Greek way.

This documentary was made by Ingeborg Beugel, and proves the involvement of Greece in the Srebrenica-Genocide and the Yugoslav-war. In the film Ms. Beugel has an encounter with Mr.Alexandros Lykourezos, former conservative MP and hotshot lawyer in Athens. He openly states that he denies the fact that more than 7000 men and boys (and women and children) have been slaughtered in Srebrenica. At the time he used his personal friendship with Milosevic and Karadzic in his electoral campaign to become an MP. Despite all this, Mr. Lykourezos was recently invited by the renowned Woodrow Wilson Institute to be the Chairman of an important event on the 15th of May in Athens. This has led to the indignation of many, amongst whom Bert Bakker, Former Chairman of the parliamentary investigative committee on Srebrenica in the Netherlands. He, and many other concerned prominent people, have written letters to the Woodrow Wilson Institute to strongly insist on canceling mr. Lykourezos invitation. But to no avail. Mr. Lykourezos proceeded to be Chairman of the event and all the protest letters where ignored. The involvement of Greek banks and citizens in the financing of Milosovic regime has been proved. The Greeks were found guilty of smuggling weapons and oil during the UN-embargo, and Greek citizens were active as mercenaries in Srebrenica.

Until this day, the Greek government refuses to investigate the involvement of Greek citizens and institutions in the war in former Yugoslavia.

YouTube - The Greek Way Part 1

YouTube - The Greek Way Part 2

YouTube - The Greek Way Part 3

[Prolet]

Onur, If you have a look at a map now, Srebrenica falls under the Serbian side of Bosnia (Republika Srpska) there was no safe haven, Srebrenica was shelled from the Bosnian Muslims and what you saw next happened in revenge. Turkey is still doing this in Kurdish strongholds, lets not forget that this was a bloody war. It is a great tragerdy but lets not forget all the war crimes committed on the Bosnian side, just remember one thing in a bloody war when the people you care most about are butchered infront of you, there are no limits anymore.

The Bosnian Muslims smuggled weapons via Croatia, they made a deal with the Croats then they screwed them and they ended up fighting a bitter war in Hercegovina, this was when they blew the stari most in Mostar.

The biggest traggedy is that when i was in Bosnia the people there simply hate eachother, very few communicate with eachother and others even say that the war is at half time. One Bosnian Serb even had a go at me for going to the Bash Charshija in Sarajevo, either way its very sad on what went on there. I think its terrible but we cant do much about it.

The Serbs are alot more nationalistic and to them they cant be Serb if their religion is Muslim and the Croats are probably worse when it comes to that, where as we are alot different with our Muslims in Macedonia. We see the Torbeshi and Gorani as our own people who changed their religions for the good of their families during the Ottoman Empire.

The thing that surprises me alot now is that Bosnia was one of the most liberal places, then people there probably broke more Muslim laws then anywhere else. The women there are very good, to see them walking around with Burkas in the streets of Sarajevo is something i could never understand. Lepa Brena for example is a Bosnian Muslim (Fikreta Jahic) there are so many women like her that i would never imagine becoming radical muslims.

[sf.]

Prolet and Ozimak, vie ne ste normalni. Sure there are aspects of truth in what you say about propaganda and that wars are messy. But to imply that everyone was equally involved and responsible absolves the Serbs of their conduct in Bosnia. I will always blame them for what they have done to Bosnia.

[Prolet]

SF, If some Mudjahadeen came in and butchered your family you would do the same thing, do you know how many Serbs and Croats have properties in Sarajevo and Mudjahadeens are currently living in their appartments??

How would you feel if your father had a house in Bitola and some Mudjahadeen family took it over and lived on your land??? This is what is happening now in Sarajevo and other cities occupied by the Mudjahadeens and their followers.

Ofcourse it was terrible, we would have been in the same situation if we had of been in that bloody mess. This is why its good that we stayed out of it.

Do you know how many Bosnian Refugees are in Macedonia?? Hundreds of thousands of them, they are a recognized minority but we are directly affected from their Mudjahadeens who are now taking over Mosques in our country. That punch up a few weeks ago was caused by their followers right in the heart of Skopje.

The realistic picture is that War is a terrible thing to happen, this is why a dialogue needs to be pushed because once those tensions rise, once people loose control, once they start going to mass funerals and start digging mass graves then there are no rules anymore its a war crime if you shoot at somebody but the reality is there are no rules in the act of war this is why it should be avoided at all costs.

[sf.]

This post shows that you have no idea about this. Shit was going down in Bosnia before the mujahideen even knew the place existed. And if we all lived in harmony in the Balkans, there would have been no need for these extremists to enter our sphere.

[Onur]

Shit was going down in Bosnia before the mujahideen even knew the place existed. And if we all lived in harmony in the Balkans, there would have been no need for these extremists to enter our sphere.

++++++1

This is quote of the day for me but sadly most of people never realize this because of disinformation and manipulation.

I hope one day, the majority of people will be able to think like that.

[Onur]

On the contrary Onur, what is your opinion of Turkey and Serbia signing a visa free resime for citizens to travel in these two countries?

I read an article today, on "The Economist" web site about this issue;

Exit, pursued by a Turk

Past and present intertwine in Serbia in unexpected ways

JANUS-faced Serbia is looking to past and future. On July 11th Boris Tadic, its president, paid homage to some 8,000 Bosniak (Bosnian Muslim) men and boys murdered at Srebrenica when the town fell to Bosnian Serb forces 15 years ago. Meanwhile, in Novi Sad in northern Serbia, revellers from across Europe were enjoying the tenth annual Exit music festival.

Exit, the name chosen by the festival’s organisers to represent an “exit” from Serbian nationalism, has become one of the continent’s coolest summer destinations for thousands of young foreigners each year, attracted by some of the world’s top acts. For them Serbia’s wars are something they might read about in the history books they slip into their rucksacks.

Not to everyone. Ratko Mladic, the Bosnian Serb military commander at Srebrenica, remains at large, wanted by the Yugoslav war crimes tribunal in The Hague on charges of genocide. When he led his troops into Srebrenica in 1995 he exulted that he had liberated the town from the “Turks”, a derogatory term for Bosniaks.

Ironically, Turkey now appears to be Serbia’s new best friend. After addressing the ceremony at Srebrenica, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, the Turkish prime minister, visited Belgrade. A series of agreements were made between the two countries, including the abolition of visas. A free-trade deal will come into force in September. Accompanied by Mr Tadic, Mr Erdogan visited Sandzak, Serbia’s majority Bosniak south-western region, where the two men opened a Turkish cultural centre. Over the last year Turkey has begun to play an assertive role in the western Balkans, working to reconcile Serbs and Bosniaks in Bosnia and rival Muslim groups in Sandzak.

Previous episodes of Turkish assertiveness in the region have been less welcome. The venue for Exit is the great fortress at Petrovaradin, on the banks of the Danube, built by the Austrians 300 years ago to guard what were then their territories against the Ottoman Turks.

The fortress presents a more welcoming face these days. But numbers at the festival were noticeably down this year, particularly among Serbs and other ex-Yugoslavs, who have been hit hard by the financial crisis. Slobodan Milosavljevic, Serbia’s trade minister, says he expects the economy to grow by 2% this year, following a 3% contraction in 2009. But confidence is faltering. One reason is that Serbia’s EU accession path has slowed. Many worry that Kosovo may slow it further.

Kosovo declared independence from Serbia in February 2008. The International Court of Justice, asked by Serbia to consider the legality of the declaration, will deliver its advisory opinion on July 22nd. Serbia then plans to ask the UN General Assembly to pass a resolution demanding fresh talks on Kosovo’s status. But Serbia’s leaders have been warned that this will rile countries that have recognised Kosovo, including 22 of the 27 EU member states.

Serbia lodged a request for EU candidate status in December. But Germany has been signalling that it is in favour of an extended pause in EU enlargement after Croatia joins, probably in 2012 or 2013. If Serbia picks a fight over Kosovo, the Germans and others will have found the perfect excuse to leave Serbia out in the cold.

Serbia’s main strategic goal remains EU membership, says Mr Milosavljevic, but if this begins to look unattainable his country will further intensify relations with Russia, China and Turkey. In two years it will be a century since the Turks were finally ejected from the Balkans after more than 500 years. There is, it seems, never an exit from the strange ways of history.


http://www.economist.com/node/165912...ry_id=16591249

Some blatantly call it neo-ottomanism but I believe it`s a natural process as a result of a failure called EU. The EU`s big bosses aka western Europeans failed to deliver the expectations and the forecasts about it`s feature is not looking good anymore. So, this forces Turkey, Russia, Serbia and all other non-EU countries to look for other options. Already, Turkey cannot fit in it`s own borders anymore with an economy goes for the one trillion dollars mark, so she looks for all other options to expand economically. I think this is the case.

I can summarize it like that but i don't think this is the right thread to discuss these issues.

[Prolet]

Onur, Why didnt they force this much earlier? September is too late, they could have done it in June to start off the summer where Serbian and Turkish citizens could visit eachothers countries for summer holidays.

Exit is in Novi Sad, its on par with some of the best festivals in the Balkans the next best one in Serbia would be Gucha which is the Village of the Trumpet. The Beer Fest in Belgrade is also pretty huge.

But we are still better then them when it comes to Skara,Pivo and Kebapi. Infact they are no match for us in that department.

[iskra]

This post shows that you have no idea about this. Shit was going down in Bosnia before the mujahideen even knew the place existed. And if we all lived in harmony in the Balkans, there would have been no need for these extremists to enter our sphere.

Very well said sf and Prolet you should be more careful about how you chronicle the facts.