Bosnia: Politics and Current Events

[vojnik]

Well put Bill it is what I have been trying to say this whole time!

[Vangelovski]

Do you know why we always have this pattern? Because Bosnians didn't say something like "we gonna muslimize all Yugoslavia and get the revenge of Serbian regime" or it wasn't the Croats who fought for "Greater Croatia".

Onur,

Are you sure about this? Bosnians (although they only accounted for 44 per cent of the population) wanted to establish the entire territory of Bosnia Hercegovina as a Bosnian state, against, the clear wishes of the majority (56 per cent Serbs and Croats, who had their own views on their future).

As for the Croats not wanting a Croat state that extended beyond its borders, that is ludicrous. Croats clearly intended to annex Croat territory within Bosnia Hercegovina.

While noone is defending or justifying the Serb actions during the war or their contribution to the causes of the war, it is you who is in fact denying Bosnian Muslim responsibility.

[Zarni]

I just hope you all remember for one moment how we Macedonians were seen in the PR War waged agaisnt us by the West, it was black and white with no greys.

[fatso]

Bill, i am gonna quote myself cuz no one denies that Croats and Bosnians did similar actions in smaller scale but that`s why no one talks about that;




About why Serbians filmed all and aired on Serbian tv channels; because it was something to proud of for them since people only tries to hide the things they`ve ashamed of but shows the stuff they are proud of. Even only this behavior proves that Serbs committed genocide in Srebrenica because they were proud of what they have done to the civilians in there and you can see it from the comments of Mladic to the camera where he says that they finally took the "revenge" from the so-called Turks.

Germans did same thing too. Didn't you see the Nazi propaganda films where it shows the 10.000s of French captives, dying of hunger and Germans making fun of them by throwing goats, sheeps between them and watching them tear up the animal with their bare hands while it was alive. Germans was laughing at them and subtitles on the video says "These are the so-called sophisticated Frenches".

You are becoming very shallow....

[Big Bad Sven]

Are people here also blind to the fact that it was the Bosnian Muslims who sided with Hitler in World War II. The Grand Mufti of Jeruslem hand picked these soldiers of the sword creating one of Hitlers most feared units.

What a fucking stupid excuse to use in justifying the bosniaks are the "bad guys" in this war.

Are you also blind to know that there were also a lot of important bosniaks who were important in the partisan movement as well? You cant brush all people with the same brush mate.

FYI the nedic regime in serbia were proud to boast that serbia was the first "judas free" country in europe, and the chetniks would work both sides, the nazi's and the west, in order to get funding and achieve their goals...

[Big Bad Sven]

The Bosnians started the war in a town called Dzer if I recall correctly where they raped Serb women killed them and children etc

If you want evidence of this or anything like that you can try search it yourself I read this and have heard this fact from many who witnesses the war first hand.

hahhaha this is becoming silly now.....

Btw the serbs that i know say that the war was started because a "drunk serb hating bosniak" killed all these people at a serbian wedding, or something stupid along those lines....

Were you one of the macedonians who were protesting when Slobodan Milsovich was arrested or did you cry when arkan was killed?

[vojnik]

hahhaha this is becoming silly now.....

Btw the serbs that i know say that the war was started because a "drunk serb hating bosniak" killed all these people at a serbian wedding, or something stupid along those lines....

Were you one of the macedonians who were protesting when Slobodan Milsovich was arrested or did you cry when arkan was killed?

Neither but the arrest of Slobodan was a joke they had nothing on him watch his trial then come back to me it was the most unfair trial I have ever seen. Sounds to me that your a Bosnian/Kosovar Albanian Muslim sympathiser. At least the Serbs took up arms against the Muslims extremists in the Balkan which have occupied our lands for 500 years unlike us Macedonians who sold our country to them. Most people here are clearly brainwashed by FOX news and CNN and have forgotten what the Kosovo Liberation Army which Slobodan tried to defeat done to Macedonia it is sad. AND No I'm not a Serbian sympathiser.

[Vangelovski]

BBS,

I have not seen or read the entirety of the Milosevic trial, but from the substantial amount of documents I have read, it was quite pathetic. Even if Milosevic was guilty of everything he was indicted for, actually proving it is quite difficult. The trail went into the ridiculous at times, much like Colin Powell's attempt to convince the UN Security Council that Iraq had nuclear weapons (remember his cartoon drawings of what a nuclear facility would look like if Iraq had one? http://hillbuzz.org/2008/08/14/rumor...-obamasoetoro/).

[slovenec zrinski]

Are you sure about this? Bosnians (although they only accounted for 44 per cent of the population) wanted to establish the entire territory of Bosnia Hercegovina as a Bosnian state, against, the clear wishes of the majority (56 per cent Serbs and Croats, who had their own views on their future).

Not true. There was a vote for independence in 1992. Turnout 63.4 % with 99.7% for independence. The vote was boycotted by most serbs apparently since they were urged to do so by their politicians. Bosnians and Croats voted for independence, understandable since they saw the serbs behaviour in Croatia during end of 1991.

[slovenec zrinski]

To equate the blame on all three sides is wrong, and will remain wrong despite attempts of revisionism. From all I have seen or read and also talked with bosnians of all three religions, the bosniaks before the war urged, pleaded and begged for all the three peoples/religions to live together and work together. During the protests and demonstrations that precluded the war in Sarajevo I have never ever seen or heard any bosniaks yelling Allah..I have only heard them plead for unity and if anything has been chanted,as far as I know..it was Bosna,Bosna,Bosna and Tito,Tito,Tito.
As for the war crimes, no, in no way can the bosniaks be equated with the serbs (or croats). The intent of the serbs steered their war machinery. And that intent from the start was etnich cleaning, as they had done in Croatia.

[Bukefal]

To equate the blame on all three sides is wrong, and will remain wrong despite attempts of revisionism. From all I have seen or read and also talked with bosnians of all three religions, the bosniaks before the war urged, pleaded and begged for all the three peoples/religions to live together and work together. During the protests and demonstrations that precluded the war in Sarajevo I have never ever seen or heard any bosniaks yelling Allah..I have only heard them plead for unity and if anything has been chanted,as far as I know..it was Bosna,Bosna,Bosna and Tito,Tito,Tito.
As for the war crimes, no, in no way can the bosniaks be equated with the serbs (or croats). The intent of the serbs steered their war machinery. And that intent from the start was etnich cleaning, as they had done in Croatia.

Exactly! That was indeed their intent, and thats exactly why they started it.

I've said before, in a war situation both sides commit crimes, but to constantly state things like; "but but, the Bosnians did things too" is just wrong. Its also just plain wrong to find some reason, to say that the Bosnians have done 'something (ive read even a ridiculous thing as a rape)' that started the war. Even if that something did not happen, the Serbs would still start it.

As for milosevic. If his trial was fair or not fair, it still doesnt change anything to the fact of what he has done.

[Vangelovski]

Not true. There was a vote for independence in 1992. Turnout 63.4 % with 99.7% for independence. The vote was boycotted by most serbs apparently since they were urged to do so by their politicians. Bosnians and Croats voted for independence, understandable since they saw the serbs behaviour in Croatia during end of 1991.

Croats voted for secession from Yugoslavia, with an intention to then join their territories to Croatia. Bosnians were a minority attempting to control the fate of the majority against their wishes.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Not true. There was a vote for independence in 1992. Turnout 63.4 % with 99.7% for independence. The vote was boycotted by most serbs apparently since they were urged to do so by their politicians. Bosnians and Croats voted for independence, understandable since they saw the serbs behaviour in Croatia during end of 1991.

Zrinski, if the vote was to join Croatia or stay in an independent Bosnia, which option do you think most Croats in Bosnia would choose? There is no doubt that strong elements among them were working towards the first option, voting for separation from Yugoslavia was probably just the initial phase to that end.

[slovenec zrinski]

I am fully aware of the Croatians plans more or less behind the scene and if given the option to join Croatia probably would have voted for that...but since that option never was a reality we will actually never know unless there were polls taken amongs the Croatians at that time.

As for the referendum in 1992 the question asked to the voters was not "Do you want to secede from Yugoslavia?"..it was "Da li ste za to da BiH bude nezavisna država svih njenih građana i ravnopravnih naroda?" (Are you for that BiH will become an independent country for all of its citizens and equal nations?) I know this might seem like splitting hairs but that was the question that was asked to the population including the catholic bosnians/croats and that was what they voted for. And I know SoM..that it was probably not just some elements working for union with Croatia but rather a large proportion of the population as well...
During the initial fighting as far as I know the cooperation between the legal bosnian army and the croatian HOS forces was working well and it was only after the Vance Owen plan was set forth (a plan that was very much in favour of the Croats but also the Serbs) that HOS started to accuse the Bosniaks for being extremists and began carving out the territory "given" to them by Vance Owen by turning on the Bosnian army and start ethnic cleaning against the Bosniaks.

fotnote: As I am not speaker of serbian or croatian or serbocroatian I am not 100% sure of the translation of the question asked

[slovenec zrinski]

And by the way..I agree with your post Bukefal. And while on the subject of Mladic and Bosnia I would like to ask you what u think of the Framework agreement and if u are an albanian? lol (Just my twisted sense of humour..sorry for that)