Mother Teresa of Macedonia

[TrueMacedonian]

TM, I watched the whole video. What points exactly are you referring to? The quality of her assistance? Or not having enough medications? What do you expect in India? Maybe she should not have helped anyone? Have you ever been to a Macedonian hospital? The conditions there are very similar - except that noone is willing to help you unless you 'know someone' or you can pay up front.

I couldn't care less about Hitchens and his beliefs. Its his inability to provide thoroughly researched and evidentially supported views.

Like I said, I think I should start paying closer attention to the "research" you do contribute to the MTO. I used to just assume you knew what you were talking about, but as of late, it seems you readily accept anything you come across.

Coming from someone that uses creationist websites like this one as evidence - http://www.icr.org/ which is nothing but junk science as proven by this article - http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...www.google.com

I find it comical that you will pay closer attention to my research

Here ya go Tom. Here's something from my latest research you can pay more attention to - http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...ead.php?t=5652

[Vangelovski]

Coming from someone that uses creationist websites like this one as evidence - http://www.icr.org/ which is nothing but junk science as proven by this article - http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...www.google.com

I find it comical that you will pay closer attention to my research

Here ya go Tom. Here's something from my latest research you can pay more attention to - http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...ead.php?t=5652

TM, if its "junk science", then you should be able to easily google and then copy paste a refutation. In the 50-60 pages of that thread, you were unable to do so. I don't believe I ever quoted Gish, but either way, your latest link hardly refutes any of the work done by Gish or the problems he's raised with evolutionary theory. It basically just makes a bunch of sweeping statements!

Back on this topic, you still have not told me exactly what it was about Hitchens' video clip that convinced you of Teresa's "evilness"...

[TrueMacedonian]

Vangelovski , that is a little harsh bro , I appreciate true MAcedonians findings , can we please be kinder and more tolerant to each other . We are all MAcedonian brothers and sisters and here united in our fight for our cause .

Julie thanks for sticking up for me. But it's quite alright. Tom probably has a grudge against me not believing every single story in the bible (he won't admit it but that's cool too). The fact that Hitchens does provide evidence, much to the disdain of even myself, that teresa was a catholic toady more interested in telling raped women that abortions are a sin that will send them to hell, which probably go against many of Vangelovski's beliefs is what it is most likely about.

[TrueMacedonian]

TM, if its "junk science", then you should be able to easily google and then copy paste a refutation. In the 50-60 pages of that thread, you were unable to do so. I don't believe I ever quoted Gish, but either way, your latest link hardly refutes any of the work done by Gish or the problems he's raised with evolutionary theory. It basically just makes a bunch of sweeping statements!

Back on this topic, you still have not told me exactly what it was about Hitchens' video clip that convinced you of Teresa's "evilness"...

Actually I have Tom. You just ignore the evidence as "just the way it is in India".

[Vangelovski]

Actually I have Tom. You just ignore the evidence as "just the way it is in India".

No, nowhere in this thread have you cited the specific claims by Hitchens that convinced you of Teresa's wrongdoing. All you have done is pointed to a timeframe within the youtube clip in which a number of speculations were made.

[TrueMacedonian]

No, nowhere in this thread have you cited the specific claims by Hitchens that convinced you of Teresa's wrongdoing. All you have done is pointed to a timeframe within the youtube clip in which a number of speculations were made.

Ok Tom. If you think so. I am sure more people with less bias will see the video and agree with Hitchens (and others) point on teresa.

[Vangelovski]

I think you are over critical of the source because he's a well known atheist and you won't allow yourself to look past this. However Hitchens is a journalist and a writer who has the respect of his peers and adversaries. You may not like what he has to say about religion. And that's your right. But he didn't pull things out of a hat against Agnes Gonxha. He used eyewitness accounts and well known facts. http://books.google.com/books?id=PTg...page&q&f=false

I just had a quick look at your source! From what I can tell, he himself has not provided any sources - not even a bibliography! Great investigative work...for the both of you!

[Vangelovski]

Ok Tom. If you think so. I am sure more people with less bias will see the video and agree with Hitchens (and others) point on teresa.

WHICH POINTS?????? SPECIFICALLY!

I already stated at the outset that I'm no fan of Teresa and I do believe she was very hypocritical (which was the only point that Hitchens was able to argue), but the rest of it was just pure dramatisation backed up by scary music and a dull Hitchens voice!

And still you are unable to tell us WHICH POINT(S) EXACTLY you're referring to!

[TrueMacedonian]

WHICH POINTS?????? SPECIFICALLY!

I already stated at the outset that I'm no fan of Teresa and I do believe she was very hypocritical (which was the only point that Hitchens was able to argue), but the rest of it was just pure dramatisation backed up by scary music and a dull Hitchens voice!

And still you are unable to tell us WHICH POINT(S) EXACTLY you're referring to!

My goodness Tom I already pointed out WHERE YOU CAN SEE IT!!!!!!! Need I point it out AGAIN????

[Vangelovski]

My goodness Tom I already pointed out WHERE YOU CAN SEE IT!!!!!!! Need I point it out AGAIN????

Like I said, you provided a timeframe in the clip, but that mentions a number of issues. Which specifically are you referring to? You seem to be having a lot of difficulty in explaining exactly what convinced you so much!

[TrueMacedonian]

Like I said, you provided a timeframe in the clip, but that mentions a number of issues. Which specifically are you referring to?

All of it. The conditions in the Hospice, the fundamentalist jibberish about not using contraceptives and the sins of abortion. Why is she evil? Here's something you conveniently overlooked on page 3 that I posted for Julie to read:

http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/story.asp?storyCode=176802&sectioncode=40

The western media, beginning with Malcolm Muggeridge's starry-eyed BBC television programme in 1968, built Teresa up as the world's kindest and most honourable soul - overlooking the fact that her mission in life, unlike Gandhi's, was more to promote religion than to improve the lot of the poor. Her call to thousands of pregnant Bangladeshi women raped by Pakistani soldiers during the liberation war in East Bengal to have their babies was definitely prompted by her Catholic faith. But she never said a word against the widespread abortion of female foetuses practised in India because she knew that to speak out would damage the Missionaries of Charity in India. When in 1980 one of her order's homes in north London caught fire as a result of insufficient precautions, nine women burnt to death. But such was the aura of its reputation in the West that there was no proper investigation into the incident.

From the evidence he documents, it is clear that Teresa often deliberately misled journalists with spurious statistics about her charitable work. Even in her Nobel acceptance speech in 1979, she falsely claimed to have picked up 36,000 destitutes from the streets of Calcutta, knowing that no western journalist would attempt to verify the statement of a pious and fragile nun. According to Chatterjee's estimate, the real figure is between 500 and 700 destitutes for the entire period of her operation in Calcutta since the 1930s, during which time there were a number of catastrophic natural and political disasters, such as the famine of 1943-44, the partition of Bengal in 1947 and the refugee influx from East Pakistan in 1971. The fact is that the Missionaries of Charity generally do not pick up the destitutes, they refer them to Calcutta Corporation's ambulance service. Only when no city hospital will take the dying are they brought to the Missionaries of Charity. Mostly, the order's ambulances are used as taxis by the nuns.

[Vangelovski]

So basically your complaining that Teresa was working under third world conditions (most of India if you have not noticed is considered to be 'third world), i.e., lack of facilities, lack of medical supplies, that she preached a Christian message (though hypocritically) and that she overstated how many people she had supposedly helped?

What exactly would you want her to do about the conditions she was working under in India?

Granted she was hypocritical about here message re abortion, I already acknowledged that she was hypocritical. Or are you just against the idea of abortion? If so, that's just a subjective opinion and not a "proof" of evilness!

She also (maybe) lied about how many people she helped - though we only have Hitchens' unsourced word about this.

How does all this make her "evil"?

[TrueMacedonian]

So basically your complaining that Teresa was working under third world conditions (most of India if you have not noticed is considered to be 'third world), i.e., lack of facilities, lack of medical supplies, that she preached a Christian message (though hypocritically) and that she overstated how many people she had supposedly helped?

What exactly would you want her to do about the conditions she was working under in India?

Granted she was hypocritical about here message re abortion, I already acknowledged that she was hypocritical. Or are you just against the idea of abortion? If so, that's just a subjective opinion and not a "proof" of evilness!

She also (maybe) lied about how many people she helped - though we only have Hitchens' unsourced word about this.

How does all this make her "evil"?

Excuse me Tom but what about the millions of dollars of donations she received? Or are we to buy into your "third world" theory? Millions of dollars yet the volunteers would pass around a syringe for re-use amongst different patients? Sorry I don't buy it.
As for the abortion issue the post from the article above corraberates how I feel about what kind of a scumbag she was.
And the "unsourced" word is not from Hitchens but from Dr. Aroup Chatterjee as the article itself states.

[Vangelovski]

Excuse me Tom but what about the millions of dollars of donations she received? Or are we to buy into your "third world" theory? Millions of dollars yet the volunteers would pass around a syringe for re-use amongst different patients? Sorry I don't buy it.
As for the abortion issue the post from the article above corraberates how I feel about what kind of a scumbag she was.
And the "unsourced" word is not from Hitchens but from Dr. Aroup Chatterjee as the article itself states.

How much money did Hitchens say she was worth? How much do you think medical supplies and facilities cost? Divided by the number of facilities around the world she was running, how far do you think that money went?

I'm still not clear about your abortion issue, but like I already said, she was hypocritical.

And, yes, she lied.

I take it you are a financial genius, you're not a hypocrite and you've never lied? Or should we add you to the same list that you've put Teresa on?

[George S.]

It looks like she overstated her case so that she could get more funds & the aim was to feed the poor.As to other things you need more facts & figures as she didn't just become a laureatte of a peace prize for nothing.The thing is that i don't think the vatican approved of abortions so they had to look after the babies.