Velika Popovska 64 year old woman turned away from Greek border 10th July 2012

[Vangelovski]

Unity means to work all together for a common goal. But this cannot be obligatory. If you disagree with the goal or the ways some organizations use to achieve these goal, you may not join. This does not mean that you cannot do your own activism to achieve the goals you think are best, by the ways you think are best.
If you think that some organization does not fulfil your expecyetions and in the same time you think it does some demage to the cause, you are free to criticize it, exposing some facts of what you criticize.

I know what unity means Vodenka, I'm asking you what UMD's "goal" is.

[vodenka]

I know what unity means Vodenka, I'm asking you what UMD's "goal" is.

The UMD goals are clear and are written on their internet site. For a change, could you explain, if you know, what is Vinozhito goal (which is not clear at all) and of all its suporters?

[Phoenix]

As an elaboration, Phoenix, I am not a naïf on the way to the Eaton Centre who just decided to drop in because it looked comfortable here. I am a retired journalist and professor who has some awareness, of and interest in, the Balkans area though that is not my field.

Angliski, sometimes even the naif has that lucid moment that may elude many others, surely thought and conviction isn't the exclusive domain of the retired journalists and professors of the world, those trying to intellectualize the very essence of identity itself. I fear that you're one of those, perhaps your journey to the Eaton Centre shouldn't have taken any detours, afterall...?

I wonder, of all the naifs at the Eaton Centre that have taken the escalator ride up to the upper level, how many have smiled in irony at all of those suspended birds in animated flight hanging from the atrium ceiling...?

With respect to your question Regarding the Greece/Macedonia name dispute and it's solution, the mechanisms for a solution have been in place for many years. In these cases, a solution normally comes after mutual good-will, compromise, pressure or capitulation. None of these elements figure in the name dispute yet.

How familiar are you with the name dispute, professor...?
Perhaps you've missed a couple of events in the last 2 decades...

The fact that Macedonia 'compromised' it's name, it's flag and elements of its constitution...

The 'pressure' that was applied to Macedonia through the economic blockade applied to the country from our southern 'neighbour'

The 'pressure' applied to Macedonia by the perpetual 'greek' veto at the EU and NATO...I guess that could also come under your (lack of) 'good-will' criteria...also the myriad of 'incidents' against Macedonian citizens and even diplomatic staff in greece.

There's an entire thread devoted to all of these examples of greek 'good-will' and 'pressure' against Macedonia on this forum.

The Macedonian issue interests me particularly because it is a late development of a national entity taking place well after the years of the creation of the nation state and affords us the opportunity to understand the critical and powerful process further. It is terribly interesting.

I hope that this post is clear in most respects and that it is not taken as condescending or antagonistic, neither of which it is meant to be.

All the best,

Have you got the same "late development" interest in the other states of the former Yugoslavia, the emergence of the seperate Czech and Slovakia Republics, the myriad of independent nations emerging from the former USSR, or the constant changing landscape in Africa, Asia and the Pacific...wow, Macedonia must be such a special case.

[Vangelovski]

The UMD goals are clear and are written on their internet site. For a change, could you explain, if you know, what is Vinozhito goal (which is not clear at all) and of all its suporters?

None of us can understand them or have the faintest idea what they are. If they are so clear, then you should be able to explain them to us. Can you do that?

As for vinozito, I have no association with them.

[George S.]

Angliski i can see your steady diet of greek school propaganda.What did they teach you to fear the skopijans all they want is to take their lands back.As long as you remember prior to 1912 it was macedonian territory & you had no right to take it.Also you should remember your own state & nationhood how it started.Also you have to remember of the lies told that in greece live only greeks there are no minorities.This ia a lie even today.
So what can we say about good neighbourly relations.Since 1991 greece has interferred in the path of macedonia preventing it being called macedonia this is a sovereign nation.
But greece is our enemy & not our friend & doesn't respect or recognize us by our name.
Also you have omitted to mention the treatment greece gave it's macedonian minority over the years.So stop pretending you don't know about it.Greece tried to lie that there were no macedonians within it's borders.But we have found that's not true & your cradle of democracy tried to alter censuses that show the real count & prevent people from returning to their ancestral lands as well..

[vodenka]

None of us can understand them or have the faintest idea what they are. If they are so clear, then you should be able to explain them to us. Can you do that?

As for vinozito, I have no association with them.

As I and many others cannot understand what Vinozhito stands for and we stay far and away from it, I guess you and all the others who are not convinced about the role of UMD, can just ignore them.

[Vangelovski]

As I and many others cannot understand what Vinozhito stands for and we stay far and away from it, I guess you and all the others who are not convinced about the role of UMD, can just ignore them.

Vodenka, are you trying to tell us that you have no idea what the organisation YOU joined actually stands for or won't they let you answer? Its a simple question - YOU represent UMD in Greece, YOU should be able to explain what their goals are and what they stand for.

Further, it is YOU who is coming here to advertise YOURSELF and UMD. So start getting relevant and do it quickly.

[vodenka]

http://www.npld.eu/current-projects/

As the protection and development of our macedonian language is a priority for us in Egejska and for UMD, I infrom you that, starting this year, our association in Voden is a member of the above European association and this was achieved with UMD help that paid the anual registration fee for us.
But I guess you will find this of a minor importance.

[Angliski]

From the beginning of the nation state a few centuries ago, the “hatred of the other” was an essential component of national identity and determining who a people were, or were not, in their own minds.

*

The oldest nations in Europe, England and France, based their emerging national identities on a mutual hatred. The first French “patriot,”* Joan of Arc, was burned at the stake by “English dogs.”

*

The new American states hated and feared the Imperial British, the Poles Prussia. To the Greeks, a hatred of Turkey was a central part of what made them Greeks to begin with.* Newly independent Ukraine hates Russia and the Russians.

*

The feelings of victimization and injustice, compared to the innocence and purity of* their own lives, are central to nations and their people in the development of their national identity.

*

The deepest feelings of victimization and one’s own innocence are always driven and enhanced by selective or even fictitious historical interpretations and events. Glory and innocence are the true parents of all nations. The highest destiny is their only path. Only the evil “other” keeps them from it.

*

Even aggressive and most powerful America is the victim of a terrible terrorism when Americans have sought nothing more than to spread democracy, prosperity and peace throughout the world. A sanitized and jingoistic history, buttered and battered to make it easier to swallow, *proves it.

*

How unfair, how bitter, how unjust the world is to the truly innocent who have suffered so much just because they want to reveal their true greatness and to achieve their unparalleled place in the world.

*

Yes, we are the ones we have been waiting for.

[Angliski]

To the human mind, " memory" can be the falsest of friends, the most infected seducer, and passion more hallucinatory than a lethal drug.


The ancient Romans had a saying that holds its value today:

"Treat your friend as if one day he will be your enemy and treat your enemy as if one day he will be your friend.

[julie]

Angliski why are you polluting this thread with crap, this is highly irrelevant

[julie]

http://www.npld.eu/current-projects/

As the protection and development of our macedonian language is a priority for us in Egejska and for UMD, I infrom you that, starting this year, our association in Voden is a member of the above European association and this was achieved with UMD help that paid the anual registration fee for us.
But I guess you will find this of a minor importance.

But the EU funds this!

[George S.]

oodenka your UMD is a crap organization all it is good for is raising money for what? for themselves.They were asked to come on the MTO & explain themselves Meto has declined the invitation.When you really see what they are doing you will be shocked they are not so transparent & they are self fulling they are there to propagate themselves.As far as they are representing themselves only they don't give two hoots about representing the diaspora.Let me give you an example.The give awards to traitors of the cause.THey are for the name fyrom to be used to enter the nato & &eu that is not going to work greece will knock it on the head,another stupid idea.The umd is for the interim accord.This agreement should be called null & void but your UMD supports it.The UMD supports the use of the ventilator,the UMD actually supports a name change despite their bs that they have supported an end to the negotiations.I think the problem with the UMD is deep rooted it only accounts to itself.It will say what the masses want to hear so that they can be sucked in for funds/members & then they switch their allegiances.
Like you i used to think hey they are mean't to represent us only to the next paycheck.They are all on hefty salaries.We noticed a long time ago that the UMD is not really representing the diaspora but a certain section of the uS diaspora ie raising funds apearing on tv ,flashy cars all razamataz.THey don't care about the real matter at hand do you know they awarded gligorov one of their umd awards for services,dis you know despite what the UMD says it supports the gruevski approach of keeping on with the name negotiations.
Vodenka this is just scratching the surface ,The umd is not transparent,the eu has supplied your funds probably i was dissapointed that the UMD was a do nothing organization.It had me fooled originally but only for a while.I saw how rtg invited
Meto the head of UMD to come on the MTO & answer a few things he has so far declined.THese are normal questions of transparency & accountability & explain a few things about the organization.Don't be fooled by their bs & spin.They are masters of spin doctoring .All i know is they are are good at fundraising & getting fat paychecks in the mail
.In ending i can say Tom Vangelovski knows a hell of a lot more than me or you about the UMD ,plus a whole damn more than we think.If you listen & give him a chance he'll explaine it all to you.

[Angliski]

Respectfully, Ms. jullie, but it is the most relevant. It is the point on which the gyroscope revolves.



( Though I don't know about all those stars. I certainly didn't put them there. Could they be Higgs Bosons?)

[vodenka]

But the EU funds this!

The EU funds some programs. To be a member of the organization costs an anual registration fee that gives the right to associations like ours to participate to those programs.