Smilkovci Lake Killings

[Brian]

Give me a real life example of a nation that has refused to stand up for its rights because its members believe they are 'too poor'.

Did I not say ANY society, the poorer the better but just not actually broke.

But since you ask...one example, the USA.
Record unemployment, money leaving the country, national debt ceiling raised repeatedly, GM being given 21 Billion of bail-out tax money to open new plants and move jobs to China, only GE being exempt from carbon taxes while smaller electricity plant competitors are taxed until they go broke leading to astronomical rises in electricity bills, being sexually assaulted/groped at airports/bus stations/highways ect, properties being seized for all sorts of made-up stupid reasons with astronomical fines like rain falls on your land a particular way so where going to rezone it a reserve despite your family being there since the 1800's or you're raising the wrong (deemed feral) pigs on your farm or you sold raw milk to your neighbour, ect, unconstitutional laws that can literately kill you or spy on you 24/7 are being passed and greater interest is being shown (ratings figures) to 'dancing with the stars' than the political debate going on which will certainly change their lives.

And by the way, the largest group represented in the 'Occupy Movement' - unemployed, students and riff-raff and little of office guys in suits with mortgages to pay. Heck, not even unionists came out in force.

Maybe we can find a 'DraganOfUSA' that we can dump on and soli pamet from Ostralija because our sol is better, but someone forgot to tell you that with too much sol and not enough mundga ke dojdi presoleno.

[Vangelovski]

Did I not say ANY society, the poorer the better but just not actually broke.

But since you ask...one example, the USA.
Record unemployment, money leaving the country, national debt ceiling raised repeatedly, GM being given 21 Billion of bail-out tax money to open new plants and move jobs to China, only GE being exempt from carbon taxes while smaller electricity plant competitors are taxed until they go broke leading to astronomical rises in electricity bills, being sexually assaulted/groped at airports/bus stations/highways ect, properties being seized for all sorts of made-up stupid reasons with astronomical fines like rain falls on your land a particular way so where going to rezone it a reserve despite your family being there since the 1800's or you're raising the wrong (deemed feral) pigs on your farm or you sold raw milk to your neighbour, ect, unconstitutional laws that can literately kill you or spy on you 24/7 are being passed and greater interest is being shown (ratings figures) to 'dancing with the stars' than the political debate going on which will certainly change their lives.

And by the way, the largest group represented in the 'Occupy Movement' - unemployed, students and riff-raff and little of office guys in suits with mortgages to pay. Heck, not even unionists came out in force.

Maybe we can find a 'DraganOfUSA' that we can dump on and soli pamet from Ostralija because our sol is better, but someone forgot to tell you that with too much sol and not enough mundga ke dojdi presoleno.

Brian, I think you're on the crack again - or maybe just snorting too much 'sol'. I asked you to show me an actual example of a nation (collectively) using the excuse of being 'too poor' so that they DON'T have to protest. Americans protest all the time and as you demonstrated, they do so no matter how poor they are and some do it because they are poor. So your example actually demonstrates MY point.

[Brian]

There isn't any. Any other brilliant comments?

Yeah. If not, why not, and what have you done to ecourage people you know in RoM to get active.

In this thread alone there was a post about Macedonians organising a protest so there must be some activists there, what have you done to contact them. Probably nothing.

I know from the earlier posts in this thread you're going to not answer but instead try and turn it around with what have I done - A. I'm not making myself out to be a leader, and according to everyone I'm a loony remember

so what do you expect, and I'm only half Macedonian and a Full Greek according to some, and am estranged from most of my relos there for reasons like post my one and only trip there (a long while ago) I didn't brag enough about myself like other tourist from Glorious Ostralija or other diaspora so I must be a looser with nothing to show despite my real reason being I didn't think it polite to shove it in their faces and other reasons down from this high note of logic.

Besides I'm going through a busy phase now and will be posting less and reading more and contra to popular opinion (re opinion pole) I'm not OziMak and dumb enough to fight the 'school yard' logic.

[vicsinad]

Brian, I think you're on the crack again - or maybe just snorting too much 'sol'. I asked you to show me an actual example of a nation (collectively) using the excuse of being 'too poor' so that they DON'T have to protest. Americans protest all the time and as you demonstrated, they do so no matter how poor they are and some do it because they are poor. So your example actually demonstrates MY point.

Obviously, you guys are not ever going to be on the same page because you're asking Brian to support something that he never stated. He simply stated that it was one of the most common excuses used by people for not protesting (too poor to protest/stand up for rights) and you're asking him to give an example of a nation that collectively uses that excuse.

So that's why it's easy for me to agree with both of you: no nation collectively uses that as an excuse, but it is one of the most common excuses used across many people in many societies. For example, it's an excuse for why voter turn-out is so low in the US -- "I have to work 8am-6pm, and I will lose money if I take off of work to go vote."

I think Australia's version of liberty and freedom amounts to forcing people to stick up for their rights by fining them if they don't vote. May make for a more democratic society...but certainly not a more free society ... unless giving up one freedom (freedom not to vote?) eventually results in the safeguarding of more freedoms at the ballot box. Ironic.

[Vangelovski]

He simply stated that it was one of the most common excuses used by people for not protesting (too poor to protest/stand up for rights)

He didn't even provide evidence of that.

[Brian]

Brian, I think you're on the crack again - or maybe just snorting too much 'sol'. I asked you to show me an actual example of a nation (collectively) using the excuse of being 'too poor' so that they DON'T have to protest. Americans protest all the time and as you demonstrated, they do so no matter how poor they are and some do it because they are poor. So your example actually demonstrates MY point.

Brian Post541
Did I not say ANY society, the poorer the better but just not actually broke.

The definition of "too poor" so far has been someone who feels they are just making ends meet let alone have means to do anything else. In light of this previous definition my example of unemployed, students and riff-raff does not support your point the poor people readily protest but my point that when people feel they have abundance (re 1960's and 70's) and feel all important or are totally down and out and feel they have 'nothing more to loose' protest more. The flip side to this is when people are so poor and so under the thumb with a gun like North Korea and the like or Mexico run by murdering drug gangs do people again stop protesting.

[Vangelovski]

The definition of "too poor" so far has been someone who feels they are just making ends meet let alone have means to do anything else. In light of this previous definition my example of unemployed, students and riff-raff does not support your point the poor people readily protest but my point that when people feel they have abundance (re 1960's and 70's) and feel all important or are totally down and out and feel they have 'nothing more to loose' protest more. The flip side to this is when people are so poor and so under the thumb with a gun like North Korea and the like or Mexico run by murdering drug gangs do people again stop protesting.

Brian, show me where a North Korean has ever stated that they are 'too poor' to stand up for their rights? What do criminal gangs have to do with government violations of human rights? Either way, show me a Mexican that has said they're 'too poor' to do anything.

[EgejskaMakedonia]

Give me a real life example of a nation that has refused to stand up for its rights because its members believe they are 'too poor'.

Perhaps Macedonia can set the precedent. Future generations across the world can then use them as an excuse for failing to stand up for their rights.

[Vangelovski]

Perhaps Macedonia can set the precedent. Future generations across the world can then use them as an excuse for failing to stand up for their rights.

I think Macedonia has set quite a few precedents. Always breaking new territory in the wrong kind of way.

[Brian]

Brian, show me where a North Korean has ever stated that they are 'too poor' to stand up for their rights? What do criminal gangs have to do with government violations of human rights? Either way, show me a Mexican that has said they're 'too poor' to do anything.

You gotta love this 'school yard' logic - hold up a guy or you have no proof and are therefore wrong which of course means I must be right.

Do you think that by definition the fact that they are NOT protesting, ie prominently out in public, means that they are less visible so someone like me in Australia with only the internet is going to find it hard to find and show you someone who doesn't want to be visible?

I don't hang on to docos on things deemed 'less important' (I'm a racist, remember) and especially if they are common public knowledge to anyone who bothers with world affairs just on the off chance I might need to prove commonly known things that are even on Phoenix's Channel X TV news from time to time. The poor Mexicans are shit scared to do anything and the wealthier ones are lining their pockets nicely so noone protests - does it not strike you strange that Mexico is not known for being a wealthy country, in fact it's one of those 'don't drink the water warning' countries, yet the richest guy on earth is from Mexico. Next you will be asking for proof the sun exists or I must be wrong.

And seriously triple WTF??? When would you expect a North Korean to say they are "too poor" (they build them tough there, you know) when it is known that multitudes have died of starvation and still not done anything to protest and recently were forced to cry vigorously for the death of 'glorious leader' when all they probably wanted to do was to kill him and his whole family, and strangely still, no protests - then using your logic everything in North Korea must be just fine because noones complaining/protesting.LOL.Really? from a grown guy who talks about the Australian military, so I'm guessing you have some connection with it - maybe that's why they left you back in Australia and gave you enough free time during a working day to post on the MTO? Grab you kit soldier, and on your bike, you've totally lost it.

[Vangelovski]

You gotta love this 'school yard' logic - hold up a guy or you have no proof and are therefore wrong which of course means I must be right.

Do you think that by definition the fact that they are NOT protesting, ie prominently out in public, means that they are less visible so someone like me in Australia with only the internet is going to find it hard to find and show you someone who doesn't want to be visible.

I don't hang on to docos on things deemed 'less important' (I'm a racist, remember) and especially if they are common public knowledge to anyone who bothers with world affairs just on the off chance I might need to prove commonly known things that are even on Phoenix's Channel X TV news from time to time. The poor Mexicans are shit scared to do anything and the wealthier ones are lining their pockets nicely so noone protests - does it not strike you strange that Mexico is not known for being a wealthy country, in fact it's one of those 'don't drink the water warning' countries, yet the richest guy on earth is from Mexico. Next you will be asking for proof the sun exists or I must be wrong.

Toby, I'm looking for a real life example of someone (non-Macedonian) using the excuse of being 'too poor' to protest. I'll even accept an individual example as opposed to a widespread group of people using it. Do you have one or not? If you don't, stop cluttering the thread.

P.S. no more of your idiotic "reasoning" either.

[Brian]

Toby, I'm looking for a real life example of someone (non-Macedonian) using the excuse of being 'too poor' to protest. I'll even accept an individual example as opposed to a widespread group of people using it. Do you have one or not? If you don't, stop cluttering the thread.

P.S. no more of your idiotic "reasoning" either.

OMG! which part of unless you're in a conversation with them, as you were with DraganOfStip, or conversing in a doco (interviewer/interviewee) you will NOT readily find examples of people saying they are "too poor" to strike.

Either you understand it or you don't, it's common knowledge, go find a doco on it if you need to prove it to yourself.

[Vangelovski]

OMG! which part of unless you're in a conversation with them, as you were with DraganOfStip, or conversing in a doco (interviewer/interviewee) you will NOT readily find examples of people saying they are "too poor" to strike.

Either you understand it or you don't, it's common knowledge, go find a doco on it if you need to prove it to yourself.

Toby, are you still trying to defend the indefensible?

[Brian]

now I remember where I have seen him

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LOL.
MKPrilep what are you trying to say, the guy with the white hat is from Prilep?

[Brian]

Toby, are you still trying to defend the indefensible?

OMG where's Makedonska_Kafana, this is a take two of "neka ti go objasni po starki pak da se razberim", remember that about the 'Glorious USA or I'm a hypocrite for using the internet' thing.

You must be star, no mater how wrong you are you have to argue to the Nth degree.