Smilkovci Lake Killings

[Vangelovski]

Or do you want me to tell a person that overthrowing the Macedonian government should be more important to him than keeping his job?

More idiotic fallacies. As if that result is a necessary consequence of that particular action! If anything, overthrowing the current regime and installing a government that respects human rights and the rule of law may ensure further economic development and employment opportunities.

I had no intention of suggesting anything to RoMacedonians, and I have no intentions of suggesting anything to them.

What exactly is your purpose on the forum?

Encouragement and suggestions to stand up for their rights? We're not talking about disenfranchised and uneducated children here -- RoMacedonians know what's going on in their country, with their leaders and with their rights better than you or I do. But here's a suggestion for you -- go to Macedonia and encourage them there. MTO forum isn't the most effective place to be encouraging RoMacedonians. Or does it stop at: "well, it's their rights and their country...I can't do all the work form them." Yes, dribble...common theme here on MTO.

I’m not entirely convinced that Macedonians in Macedonia even know what their human rights are or understand why they are important. Many Macedonians that I have spoken to are quite ignorant of them and those that have some vague idea do not take them seriously (you included). I think that 500 years of ‘наведната глава сабја не сече’ has turned them into ‘disenfranchised and uneducated children’ with regard to their inalienable rights. But the most telling sign is the acceptance of the Interim Accord and the Framework Agreement, undemocratic governance and violations of basic human rights. No one, who knows, and understands the importance of, their inalienable rights would accept this without some kind of struggle (violent or non-violent).

Secondly, no one (other than you) suggested that the MTO forum may be the most effective way of getting a message across – but it is one way that we use. In relation to the next idiotic comment – yes, it is their rights and their country that is in question. Who else’s do you think they would be? As it is their rights and their country, ultimately, they are responsible, no excuses. You’re sounding more and more like a small child every time you post – unable to grasp the concept of personal responsibility because mummy and daddy have always taken care of things.

But as far as he is concerned, he's done more positive things for Macedonians and the Macedonian cause than you or your measly "encouragements and suggestions" have ever done.

For example?

And he doesn't waste time complaining about who isn't doing this or that, and who could be doing this or that, and how they could be doing this or that. You want to be a leader -- you want MTO to be a leading organization -- then lead through actions, be an example...be that "change."

Thanks for the advice. But the MTO is not the UMD. We are not concerned with being a “leading organisation”. We are more concerned with empowering Macedonians with the knowledge and moral courage that is required to exercise their inalienable rights and corresponding responsibilities.

[MKPrilep]

now I remember where I have seen him

[IMG][/IMG]

[IMG][/IMG]

[vicsinad]

I knew someone would bring up UMD in some context or another.

Idiot fallacies? Yet, you can't even ensure that overthrowing the government will give more economic opportunities..."may ensure", just so you don't have to say you were wrong if the intended result doesn't happen.

One way to get ideas across is banners at a soccer game. Clearly, a protest is more effective. So rather than spreading ideas at a soccer game, they should be out protesting (SoM's logic). I applied that logic to posting on this forum vs. doing something else (like going to Macedonia and organizing protests and actions). That's all.

As far as myself, my parents haven't taken care of anything for many years. But I'm fortunate enough that they're able to if I need them to.

My father's done a lot -- from co-organizing and founding the Mac. church in Detroit so Macs weren't going to the Serb/Bulgar churches to raising and collecting medicine and medical equipment for villages after the 2001 conflict, it's been more beneficial to Macedonia/Macedonians than "encouraging and suggesting to" Macedonians what should and shouldn't be done. Anyway, this is all aside from any substantial point, I only brought this up in response to you shitters always bringing him up.

Any time you start "telling" people what they should and shouldn't be doing, their attitude shifts from welcoming to stubbornness. It's a really shitty way of trying to motivate and encourage people -- especially when you assume an attitude of "we're right, you're wrong...we're doing what's needed, you're not." You're not going to see any substantial results by doing so. I think a few lessons in psychology may change your strategy about how you go about "motivating and encouraging" people.

But then again, you are the immature one and child here...Employing tactics that high school bullies use to try to make a point or send a message. Best of luck

[Big Bad Sven]

Or do you want me to tell a person that overthrowing the Macedonian government should be more important to him than keeping his job?

I find it strange that poorer people from the Albanian republic were able to over throw their not working and corrupt government in the late 90's. Albania was a "hell hole" and third world country, so job security and money was more important to the people. Yet they were able to over throw the government.

Bulgaria and Romania is the 80's we had people in living in even more horrible conditions, but job security and money was not a concern when it came to over throwing dictators. Last year 120,000 people in freezing conditions protest to get rid of Putin (on a working day mind you).

In macedonia we have a government that is not investing back to the macedonians or macedonian populated area's, is corrupt, is leading the country no where, and most importantly, is giving away our name and identity to the griks and giving the republic to the fanatical gheg minority, they are killing the country. To me the situation seems even more urgent then what was happening to Albania,Romania or Bulgaria in the past.

However the above mentioned peoples acted and made changes, while macedonians seem to have some ambiguous obstacles stopping them. I guess thats why those countries are ahead of macedonia is almost every aspect today.

[julie]

To sum all up : this debate can go on forever with words.Pretty soon guns will start blazing again and Macedonia will then see who her REAL sons are - whether the ignorant,indifferent,poor,cowardly ovci in the homeland with the AK's in their hands;or the proud,broad-hearted,love-full patriots abroad with Macedonia in their hearts and Vegemite sandwich and Crown Lager in their hands,on their couches watching the footage from the bloodbath cheering 'Go Macedonia,go Macedonia' as if it was a football game.

SHUT THE FARK UP YOU SNIVELLING LITTLE PAUPER YOU!!!!!!!!!

I have not received ONE CENT in income for the last 6 months, with 1200 Aus dollars a month rental to pay, utilities, and FOOD for my boys bellies too. I am sick to death of your pathetic whingeing and moaning and whining about your pathetic little existence like I am to blame, GROW THE FARK UP AND GROW SOME GOD DAMN BALLS YOU BALL-LESS SACK OF SHIT
I HAVE Lymppatic cancer. On top of all my other farked up conditions, my employer decided to make me an "invalid". declare me unfit for work because of my health, and middle aged with a walking stick with dreadful other life threatening conditions, cannot work , or be employed as am caught in so much government red tape and bullshit, I cannot even draw a pension!!!!!!
Your girl has food in her belly. No one is starving in Macedonia. I saw more than enough when someone flew me there 9 months ago to see my family, who I must thank GOD are not the snivelling whining bitching little ball less sacks of shit you are, you pathetic moronic excuse for a man
NOT ONCE to a living soul have I cried I have no money .....family wont let me starve or friends, people that care.....I am sick of the excuses blaming the diaspora for the incompetent cowardice of your pathetic brains over there
i do not have the money for private health insurance. For me to survive I have to pay over $200 per month for my medication......I cannot afford the medical treatment to prolong my dilemma, started it, and stopped it because this so called rich country is in economic crises too....our health system is a joke......I am sick to death of listening to your whingeing, and YES am a mother of 3 boys as well, who also are not ROBOTS need full bellies......I cannot afford any more medical treatment because i have NO money spare some euros pretty please (see how pathetic you sound)....so will pray.

I have not been posting but reading when I had my connection which was disconnected for non payment paid......and am absolutely FURIOUS with your pathetic moronic SLAVE excuses.....you may as well hail siptaria and convert to muslim today seeing as long as you get food, you will do anything to maintain the status quo

AND FUCK YES, FLY ME TO MACEDONIA NOW AND WILL GO FRONT LINE COMBAT TO TAKE A BULLET FOR YOUR DAUGHTER WHILE YOU SNIVEL IN FEAR BELOW YOUR BED LOOKING FOR EXCUSES

......OH, MY MIDDLE TEENAGE SON is working in a FACTORY a straight a student with highest level honours to SAVE money for an education one day!!!!!!!!!! do something, remove your balls, I have more than you

[julie]

it all sounds like they are witholding information.If people really knew the truth they would revolt.

You are so funny. Macedonians revolting for injustices.
I choked on my coffee whilst watching my 1km square wide plasma and the australian money tree dropping its bills on the ground....that the my parents families died for in Macedonia to grow.......

[julie]

My "armchair criticism" was commentary on your armchair criticism.

What -- do you want me to suggest something to Macedonian soccer fans/"hooligans" who are not even reading this forum? Or do you want me to tell a person that overthrowing the Macedonian government should be more important to him than keeping his job? Or do you want me to tell you that you could be doing more effective things than responding to people on a forum?

"Irrelevant" "dribble" "your father" "SDSM" "UMD" (I'm sure someone would have thrown that in sooner or later) -- so overplayed.

Woo hoo!!!!!!! SO proud of my komita Nikola Gjurgiev fighting at mechkin kamen.......to LIBERATE Macedonian from 500 years of Turkish oppression to be MACEDONIAN

sSO proud of my vujce, my dedo, my aunts, in Dolno Kotori, 13 year old partisan vujce fighting for the privelege to SPEAK Macedonian when yugo romacedonia shit on the egejtsi

SO proud of my paternal RoMacedonian dedo who with my very young dad helped feed partisans starving under TITO hail rule...then gets caught to go to a Bulgarian prison for years...


SERIOUSLY SHUT UP WITH THE PATHETIC EXCUSES
I am tired of the excuses, yes but, we need food, but, we need hobs but......

HILARIOUS whilst dressed in my dollar op shop clothes from Oz, I witnessed the high fashion EVERY person was dressed in in RoMacedonia . I am sick of the pathetic excuses that we have about the diaspora being responsible....sick of it....

I HAVE EVERY RIGHT TO BE ANGRY MY FAMILIES BLED SO THAT WE CAN BE FREE......NOT UNDER FRIGGIN SHIPTAR FRIGGING RULE LOSE ALL WE HAVE LEFT.......
TO the diaspora Macedonians who are busy ass licking and pandering to the slave and pathetic excuses coming from RoMacedonia, , actually it is SHIPTARIA NOW, grow up......we have every right to protect our blood, there is no excuse....Vangelovski gave good examples with Palestinians, with Martin Luther King etc etc......

NEVER will i give another cent (when I get money again god knows when) to another living soul in RoMacedonia...I saw how the people lived there in comparison to the lifestyle here, and that is why have openly made it personal , mine is but one small example.....pathetic isn't it?
I was born in OZ and I will defend the country that feeds me, but will NEVER ALLOW A ROMACEDONIAN TO ERODE MY BLOOD IDENTITY HOW DARE YOU ALL

[TRAVOLTA]

КОД - Исламски Радикализам

КОД - ИÑ�ламÑ�ки Ð*адикализам - YouTube

[ProMKD]

Julie, some very heated comments. I too get very annoyed with people who whine about stupid problems, like nobody else has any.

One thing is for sure: nobody in Macedonia is starving!!!! NOBODY! Many Macedonians do believe that there are money trees in the diaspora, until they move out, then have to work 16 hour days in a factory with their PhD, it's idiotic.

The problem with Macedonians is that they are living a life just comfortable enough to not care about anything - let the complainers go hungry for a week, then see how angry they get. Do you know how they train dogs for fighting? They starve them, then throw them in a pit with another dog - and voila - the dog eats the other dog to death. Only people who have struggled in life can really know what it's like to want something better.

[DraganOfStip]

SHUT THE FARK UP YOU SNIVELLING LITTLE PAUPER YOU!!!!!!!!!

I have not received ONE CENT in income for the last 6 months, with 1200 Aus dollars a month rental to pay, utilities, and FOOD for my boys bellies too. I am sick to death of your pathetic whingeing and moaning and whining about your pathetic little existence like I am to blame, GROW THE FARK UP AND GROW SOME GOD DAMN BALLS YOU BALL-LESS SACK OF SHIT
I HAVE Lymppatic cancer. On top of all my other farked up conditions, my employer decided to make me an "invalid". declare me unfit for work because of my health, and middle aged with a walking stick with dreadful other life threatening conditions, cannot work , or be employed as am caught in so much government red tape and bullshit, I cannot even draw a pension!!!!!!
Your girl has food in her belly. No one is starving in Macedonia. I saw more than enough when someone flew me there 9 months ago to see my family, who I must thank GOD are not the snivelling whining bitching little ball less sacks of shit you are, you pathetic moronic excuse for a man
NOT ONCE to a living soul have I cried I have no money .....family wont let me starve or friends, people that care.....I am sick of the excuses blaming the diaspora for the incompetent cowardice of your pathetic brains over there
i do not have the money for private health insurance. For me to survive I have to pay over $200 per month for my medication......I cannot afford the medical treatment to prolong my dilemma, started it, and stopped it because this so called rich country is in economic crises too....our health system is a joke......I am sick to death of listening to your whingeing, and YES am a mother of 3 boys as well, who also are not ROBOTS need full bellies......I cannot afford any more medical treatment because i have NO money spare some euros pretty please (see how pathetic you sound)....so will pray.

I have not been posting but reading when I had my connection which was disconnected for non payment paid......and am absolutely FURIOUS with your pathetic moronic SLAVE excuses.....you may as well hail siptaria and convert to muslim today seeing as long as you get food, you will do anything to maintain the status quo

AND FUCK YES, FLY ME TO MACEDONIA NOW AND WILL GO FRONT LINE COMBAT TO TAKE A BULLET FOR YOUR DAUGHTER WHILE YOU SNIVEL IN FEAR BELOW YOUR BED LOOKING FOR EXCUSES

......OH, MY MIDDLE TEENAGE SON is working in a FACTORY a straight a student with highest level honours to SAVE money for an education one day!!!!!!!!!! do something, remove your balls, I have more than you

Only my dignity to you as a lady will stop me from using the same rhetoric that you did.I'm sorry you have Lymppatic cancer,I wish you all the best,but I'm not the one to blame for it.
I'd suggest you exercise a bit with a boxing bag,I heard it was a good way to let off some steam.Or you can try some anger management classes too.While you're at it get some manners as well.That's all I have to say to you.I'll go now before I write something I'll regret later.Good luck with your illness.

[makedonche]

Dragan
I commend your sense of Chivalry!

Julie
Maltse po poleka!

[lavce pelagonski]

Dragan will you be fighting in Macedonia? If not then you are a hypocrite.

[julie]

Dragan

Thank you for being so chivalrous, however, I do not take offence at personal attacks for my anger towards the apathy and slave mentality excuses emanating from RoMacedonia

For years, and on this forum early on I thought the softly, softly approach was appropriate, by being gentle and loving and kind......

I am really tired of the excuses and the attacks on the diaspora who have been bled dry over the years supporting families overseas financially whilst they live in the lap of luxury continually bemoaning their pathetic situation

An example, a cousin on dads side of the family has land in the Bitola region in a selo. He is unemployed and constantly moans about how poor he is and how rich everyone in Australia is. When I asked him why does he not plant some vegetables and establish a fruit orchard on beautiful fertile soil, he says to me.....NE SUM BUDALA DA SE OTEPAN OD RABOTA!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thats right the diaspora are budali that broke their backs in the glasshouses to send money to snivelling lazy whining little shits, exposed to DDT and suffering the consequences of it years later

And to top it off, moaning and bitching about their supposed poverty......

God helps those that help themselves, if you want any sort of future for your daughter, and Dragan, stop paying for internet usage and pour the money into food, you make it sound like you are starving to death

I see the bleakness of the situation in Macedonia and am angry with the Macedonians in Macedonia expecting the diaspora and blaming them for the stupid sdms and vmro governments in place

Form your own political group with like minded people and DO something and be proactive instead of laying blame on people that have been trying to help for years, at the expense of their own comfort!

There are no excuses, none whatsoever, most of the diaspora dont have homes to go to, are in exile from their own homeland and unable to return and you further insult them by asking them to fight your own battles, battles they have already fought


Romacedonians do not care, show no initiative, have no courage, have no strength or will

When you are all under greater shiptaria and muslim rule, it is ALL OF YOUR FAULT, NO ONE ELSES.......OR is it ok as long as there is food.....what a load of rubbish, you are talking to most people here who have been to Macedonia recently, regularly and/or have families there, so the LIES dont cut it

[DraganOfStip]

Dragan

Thank you for being so chivalrous, however, I do not take offence at personal attacks for my anger towards the apathy and slave mentality excuses emanating from RoMacedonia

For years, and on this forum early on I thought the softly, softly approach was appropriate, by being gentle and loving and kind......

I am really tired of the excuses and the attacks on the diaspora who have been bled dry over the years supporting families overseas financially whilst they live in the lap of luxury continually bemoaning their pathetic situation

An example, a cousin on dads side of the family has land in the Bitola region in a selo. He is unemployed and constantly moans about how poor he is and how rich everyone in Australia is. When I asked him why does he not plant some vegetables and establish a fruit orchard on beautiful fertile soil, he says to me.....NE SUM BUDALA DA SE OTEPAN OD RABOTA!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thats right the diaspora are budali that broke their backs in the glasshouses to send money to snivelling lazy whining little shits, exposed to DDT and suffering the consequences of it years later

And to top it off, moaning and bitching about their supposed poverty......

God helps those that help themselves, if you want any sort of future for your daughter, and Dragan, stop paying for internet usage and pour the money into food, you make it sound like you are starving to death

I see the bleakness of the situation in Macedonia and am angry with the Macedonians in Macedonia expecting the diaspora and blaming them for the stupid sdms and vmro governments in place

Form your own political group with like minded people and DO something and be proactive instead of laying blame on people that have been trying to help for years, at the expense of their own comfort!

There are no excuses, none whatsoever, most of the diaspora dont have homes to go to, are in exile from their own homeland and unable to return and you further insult them by asking them to fight your own battles, battles they have already fought


Romacedonians do not care, show no initiative, have no courage, have no strength or will

When you are all under greater shiptaria and muslim rule, it is ALL OF YOUR FAULT, NO ONE ELSES.......OR is it ok as long as there is food.....what a load of rubbish, you are talking to most people here who have been to Macedonia recently, regularly and/or have families there, so the LIES dont cut it

That's more like it.I'd just like to remind you that ALL the Macedonians in the world are morally obliged to fight for their homeland (as in "fight" I don't mean just physical fighting).I never said that Diaspora people are billionaires,i said that before and I'll repeat it again if you missed that part.They are hard-working people as well,but their work gets paid better.I've been to Australia in all the coastal cities when I worked aboard a cruise ship and I can tell you this much:the prices are somewhat the same like they are in Skopje.The only difference is the wages.The average Australian salary is nowhere near the Macedonian one.I work my ass off for something like 170 euros a month.I bet you guys are working hard there as well,but for what wage?When I was an 'ergen',I was in the protests for not including Albanian alongside Macedonian in schools,when 4 soldiers from my town were killed in the conflict I was a part of the angry mob that ravaged through Stip that night,but priorities have changed some 3 years ago.The bottom line is - most Macedonians will put the full bellies of their families first,and everything else second.Blame us for that,ridicule us for that,but that's the way it is here,and it will be as long as the economic situation doesn't change any time soon.

[Vangelovski]

Dragan,

The economic situation has nothing to do with a peoples willingness to stand up for their rights. As already pointed out, there are many more people who are much worse off than Macedonians acrss the Middle East, Africa, Asia and South America. Poverty does not stop them. However, they don't suffer from a slave mentality either.