Boris Trajkovski

[Rogi]

BigMak,

That is a very simplistic and naive way to look at things.

Effectively, you are telling a great number of the forum members here to consider some of their own family members as 'terrorists' - all because of the propaganda of other nations, which have created confusion amongst some of our own.

I take a different view and believe most (no, not all) of the Macedonians, who have been lied to and manipulated (some over generations) by our neighbours and their agenda, can still be awoken and informed, with the truth.

It is just a matter of approach.

[BigMak]

BigMak,

That is a very simplistic and naive way to look at things.

Effectively, you are telling a great number of the forum members here to consider some of their own family members as 'terrorists' - all because of the propaganda of other nations, which have created confusion amongst some of our own.

I take a different view and believe most (no, not all) of the Macedonians, who have been lied to and manipulated (some over generations) by our neighbours and their agenda, can still be awoken and informed, with the truth.

It is just a matter of approach.

simplistic you say, but far from naive,

Lets take grkoman for example, we know he is Macedonian but he refers to himself as a greek and of whom he has renounced, be it by force or self willing etc etc of anything Macedonian, tell me Rogi what is the point in educating him otherwise?

His loyalty will be questionable, his desire will never be Macedonian.

And yes in effect to take the stance of Washington

one of whom is not willing and able to play a productive part in Macedonian society with loyalty to the country and of who disrespects the laws of the nation and or otherwise find themselves antisocial or criminal are terrorists. Example 98% of the Albanians in Tetovo

There is no need to be so diplomatic, it is what it is Macedonia does not have the time to play negotiator with terrorists nor negotiate with sociological terrorism

[Rogi]

The reasoning is this;

There are those of us who have always been Macedonians, nothing but Macedonians and proud to be Macedonians.

There are also today many Macedonians, who at an earlier time in their lives were what we all consider 'grkomani'. Today, they are among the proudest and staunchest Macedonians. For some this change or awakening happened with the independence of the Republic of Macedonia, for many it came before that when their grandparents mustered the strength to tell them a little family history. For many, it is happening as we speak (or write).

Similarly, today there are many Macedonians, who at an earlier time in their lives were 'Srbomani' or 'Yugosloveni'. Today, with the independence of the Republic of Macedonia, just about all of them have awoken to their national identity and are among the proudest and staunchest Macedonians.

Again similarly, there are many Macedonians who at some time in their lives were 'Bugaromani'. The greatest number of them have since awoken to the truth of the Macedonian ethnic identity, shaking off the insidious Bulgarian propaganda.

My point is, do not paint all Macedonians with the same brush and declare them lost to us, purely because they have been misled, lied to and have had no opportunity to hear the truth. I am not referring to those who have made the choice to be something other than Macedonian, whilst knowing all there is to know - I am referring to the tens of thousands in Aegean Macedonia, for example, who have never had a chance for the Macedonian truth to be explained to them, who are unaware that just north of the 'border' live the same people who speak the same language (they just don't know it. I was amazed at how little information they have about the Republic of Macedonia and who lives there).

With just a 10 minute conversation, I saw the disbelief and then understanding of so many Macedonians living in Aegean Macedonia, who thought some weird 'Yugoslavs' and 'Serbians' lived just 100km north of them, never knowing anything other than what the Greek propaganda (TV, Newspaper, Priests, etc) force upon them.

When they heard me speaking to them in their own language, explaining to them that I am from 'across the border', they didn't want to believe it (ti si nash, lafish po nashe), after a bit of history, they understood and became very interested. Then they go and speak to their grandparents...

[BigMak]

The reasoning is this;

There are those of us who have always been Macedonians, nothing but Macedonians and proud to be Macedonians.

There are also today many Macedonians, who at an earlier time in their lives were what we all consider 'grkomani'. Today, they are among the proudest and staunchest Macedonians. For some this change or awakening happened with the independence of the Republic of Macedonia, for many it came before that when their grandparents mustered the strength to tell them a little family history. For many, it is happening as we speak (or write).

Similarly, today there are many Macedonians, who at an earlier time in their lives were 'Srbomani' or 'Yugosloveni'. Today, with the independence of the Republic of Macedonia, just about all of them have awoken to their national identity and are among the proudest and staunchest Macedonians.

Again similarly, there are many Macedonians who at some time in their lives were 'Bugaromani'. The greatest number of them have since awoken to the truth of the Macedonian ethnic identity, shaking off the insidious Bulgarian propaganda.

My point is, do not paint all Macedonians with the same brush and declare them lost to us, purely because they have been misled, lied to and have had no opportunity to hear the truth. I am not referring to those who have made the choice to be something other than Macedonian, whilst knowing all there is to know - I am referring to the tens of thousands in Aegean Macedonia, for example, who have never had a chance for the Macedonian truth to be explained to them, who are unaware that just north of the 'border' live the same people who speak the same language (they just don't know it. I was amazed at how little information they have about the Republic of Macedonia and who lives there).

With just a 10 minute conversation, I saw the disbelief and then understanding of so many Macedonians living in Aegean Macedonia, who thought some weird 'Yugoslavs' and 'Serbians' lived just 100km north of them, never knowing anything other than what the Greek propaganda (TV, Newspaper, Priests, etc) force upon them.

When they heard me speaking to them in their own language, explaining to them that I am from 'across the border', they didn't want to believe it (ti si nash, lafish po nashe), after a bit of history, they understood and became very interested. Then they go and speak to their grandparents...

Rogi sega me prajs budala

[Prolet]

BigMak, I agree with Rogi, i've seen it with my own eyes.

Ote da te praj budala?? Ubo zborva chovekot.

[BigMak]

For some this change or awakening happened with the independence of the Republic of Macedonia,

Hi prolet and rogi

You said it yourself

They fact is if we build Macedonia they will come- so to speak

We don't need to convert them, they will convert when the time is right as long as they feel Macedonian at heart

If you feel you have done these people justice that's great keep doing so, but they are not the key to a great, economic and prosperous Macedonia, we need to bring the republic to the level of a Balkan superpower and that is very possible with the people who are patriotic within.

Then the time will come for our brothers to unite, it may not be via a border re-draw but possibly a economic one. Macedonians will have the rights and freedoms as any to travel and educate as they please.

Also in reality for any Macedonian in this modern age who is unaware that ROM is populated by Macedonians and speak Macedonian is either very stupid or is not worth talking to in the first place. For what its worth how is this possible? just dissecting it, not being smart here

In a hypothetical scenario if one lives in a isolated village in any of our occupied Macedonia's, not one of the village members has ever picked up on a Macedonian TV or radio signal, accessed the Internet at least once or had family members etc visit or leave, or in fact ever picked up a phone ? To me that sounds obsurd if you are Macedonian you would know what kind of people lived there. no offense rogi its just very hard to believe that it took yourself out of any mathematical scenario to tell him the truth.

As I said before these people are not the future of Macedonia they will not play a constructive role in Macedonian society or play a role in building a better Macedonia (yet). We need to build a better ROM in order for them to be proud of their Macedonian roots

But if you can educate our lost brothers, you have achieved what many have tried in the passed and failed. well done.

[Rogi]

Believe it or not BigMak, I can tell you privately in which village near Negush this took place.

[Jankovska]

Rogi I agree with a lot you said here but one thing I find very weird is of these people thinking we are some werid Yugoslavs. Could the reason for this be that someone or they themselves chose to forget where they come from. Macedonia was one, when they put the Greek border where did their knowladge of the next village go? I can't accept that people were bullied to that degree that they forgot who lives in the next village. And if they have allowed that than it's only them to blame, coz someone can take everything from you but they can no take away your memories.

[Rogi]

Jankovska, Lerin and Voden are very much different to the rest of Aegean Macedonia. They are near the border and so this is not the case for Lerin and Voden.

But have a look at where Negush (Naoussa), Kaljari (Ptolemaida) or Ber (Veria) are, they are not close to the border and they have been heavily settled (overrun) by the Prosfigi.

In these places, a lot of Macedonians (older) keep very very quiet and will only speak Macedonian at home (not public).

In all the villages, there are still many Macedonians, though they are villagers who grow fruits like Peaches, etc and they don't travel outside of their towns, they're not educated, they don't use computers or the internet, all they have is what they hear on TV or hear from someone else, or hear from the Priests.

100 years have almost passed since Macedonia was united, it's not in anyone's living memory any more, and 61 years have passed since the civil war and the deca begalci - most of whom fled and those remaining never really wanted to talk about it.

Every day on their TV's I would hear 'Skopia', 'Yugoslavia', 'Servia'. This is all they hear, and when there's nobody to tell them the truth, then they accept what they're hearing every day on TV and around town from prosfigi and from their priest.

[Jankovska]

Jankovska, Lerin and Voden are very much different to the rest of Aegean Macedonia. They are near the border and so this is not the case for Lerin and Voden.

But have a look at where Negush (Naoussa), Kaljari (Ptolemaida) or Ber (Veria) are, they are not close to the border and they have been heavily settled (overrun) by the Prosfigi.

In these places, a lot of Macedonians (older) keep very very quiet and will only speak Macedonian at home (not public).

In all the villages, there are still many Macedonians, though they are villagers who grow fruits like Peaches, etc and they don't travel outside of their towns, they're not educated, they don't use computers or the internet, all they have is what they hear on TV or hear from someone else, or hear from the Priests.

100 years have almost passed since Macedonia was united, it's not in anyone's living memory any more, and 61 years have passed since the civil war and the deca begalci - most of whom fled and those remaining never really wanted to talk about it.

Every day on their TV's I would hear 'Skopia', 'Yugoslavia', 'Servia'. This is all they hear, and when there's nobody to tell them the truth, then they accept what they're hearing every day on TV and around town from prosfigi and from their priest.

I am not saying this is not true, it is reality for these people. But surely their parents told them who they are, they must have asked where the language comes from, why are we different? I just find it hard to understand that they have not heard of the rest of Macedonia. I really do and if they haven't i see it a bit as ignorance.

[BigMak]

Does any1 know how long Trajkovski spent studying in the US and who funded this?

[Rogi]

The Methodist Church, from what I understand.

[Prolet]

Rogi, What was he doing in the States?

[Risto the Great]

I am not saying this is not true, it is reality for these people. But surely their parents told them who they are, they must have asked where the language comes from, why are we different? I just find it hard to understand that they have not heard of the rest of Macedonia. I really do and if they haven't i see it a bit as ignorance.

In Greece this is quite a common scenario.
So many people have been denied a right to hear their history because of parents who were genuinely feeling they were protecting their children. Once the kids are made to feel that being Macedonian is to be a second class citizen, they stop asking questions and are embarrassed about being associated with peasant farmers.

[Jankovska]

In Greece this is quite a common scenario.
So many people have been denied a right to hear their history because of parents who were genuinely feeling they were protecting their children. Once the kids are made to feel that being Macedonian is to be a second class citizen, they stop asking questions and are embarrassed about being associated with peasant farmers.

i believe this to be true complitley, I just find it difficult to believe that there are people in Egej who don't know about Macedonia.