Supporters of DUI wreck scaffolding of Kale church museum

[Soldier of Macedon]

Where did Volk disappear to?

The right thing to do now is to admit that he jumped the gun in an apologetic defence of the UMD, but he will not do this. Instead, we will all watch how he tries to justify jumping the gun in a manner not unlike the 'old school' UMD battler named Buktop.

By all means let me be proven wrong, I will be happy to eat my own words in this case; if it means there is a change for the better in Volk.

[Phoenix]

Were was UMD condemning the last bit of nationalist bullshit that came from the ghegs in Skopje? You will never see UMD say anything about the shiptars even if they end up killing macedonians, UMD doesn't want to loose its pay check from uncle sam and Meto is still climbing that greasy corporate ladder.

I reckon its more of a pole that he's climbing...

[Phoenix]

Where did Volk disappear to?

The right thing to do now is to admit that he jumped the gun in an apologetic defence of the UMD, but he will not do this. Instead, we will all watch how he tries to justify jumping the gun in a manner not unlike the 'old school' UMD battler named Buktop.

By all means let me be proven wrong, I will be happy to eat my own words in this case; if it means there is a change for the better in Volk.

Hey, whatever happened to that bloke called Buktop...?

Last I heard from him was when he gloated about haggling down the prices of prostitutes by pretending he was a poor Macedonian instead of a cashed-up loud mouth American, the guy claimed he was an economist afterall...

[Volk]

Inace what? Come on Volk, you know you want to put your foot in it a few more times like you usually do before we show you up to the disengenious apologist you are!

apologist? apologist for who you imbicile?

Where did Volk disappear to?

The right thing to do now is to admit that he jumped the gun in an apologetic defence of the UMD, but he will not do this. Instead, we will all watch how he tries to justify jumping the gun in a manner not unlike the 'old school' UMD battler named Buktop.

By all means let me be proven wrong, I will be happy to eat my own words in this case; if it means there is a change for the better in Volk.

I am right here... Meto's statement is disapointing to say the least.

[George S.]

Volk can you list anything that the umd has done that is right for the macedonian people.It says it's going to take action to stop the name negotiations.We are still waiting.Is the umd really representing our interests not really as they are kidding themselves.

[indigen]

Kakov pocit?

Just my way of politely saying that is what I think and you can like it or lump it!

Every person that put there life on the line, particularly in real combat is a defender, the fact that you can select who is what makes me sick.

The chosen profession of the security forces should (or does) actually specify that the duties of these persons involves "putting your life on the line" and that is what they get PAID TO DO! I respect that they were doing the job they were paid to do.

The politician spineless maggots fucked us, no one else.

Well, Gruevski (your "patriotic" hero) was a MINISTER of the Government that VOTED for the Ramkoven, do not forget that!

Trajkovski was a CIA spy, who had the biggest fucking grin on his face when they signed the TERMS OF SURRENDER.

Georgievski the bulgar spy, treacherous dog who dreamed of Macedonia joining bulgaria..

Were they the only ones who were traitors? What about the ones that served and advised them (or supported them)? Was not "Brat Ljube", who was LGs right-hand man and who also fully endorsed the Ramkoven, turned into a "super hero" by many in the cheering squads?

The Braniteli fought for our nation,

IMO, most (the professional ones) simply did what they were paid to do and were TRAGIC victims of NATIONAL BETRAYALS by an ANTI-MACEDONIAN government (which they loyally served).

little did they know what leaders they had and what they stood for.

Only people who had their heads buried in the sand did not know what LG and Co were about by this time and they certainly should have known what Branko was about long before.

Now most of them have been abandoned and treated like dogs.

If you mean the members of the security forces who were on active duty in 2001, I fully agree.

Never forget that and never disrespect the soldiers that fell defending Macedonia, UNDERSTAND?

I do NOT disrespect them at all but a good number TRAGICALLY lost their lives in ambushes (more than likely originating from within the "unity government" that included UCK supporters/members) when they were in transit mode and using inappropriate transport (combi vans instead of armoured vehicles) and in order to pressure the Macedonian public to accept the Ramkoven. Neglect of "duty of care" for these soldiers should lay at the feet of the hierarchy of the armed forces and government.

Secondly, do you recollect that one of the "esteemed" units (I think it was the "Volci") refused to go into action during the course of clearing out UCK from some villages around Kumanovo? Regardless of what the issues were, it was a terrible display of indiscipline and lack of professionalism and very demoralising for Macedonians.

YouTube - Makedonija 2001 - Bitkata za aracinovo Eve ja vistinata

Arachinovo was another act in the scheme of intimidating the Macedonians into accepting the Ramkoven, and it worked!

Slava i pocit za zaginatite, nivniot duh vecno ke ostane so nas.

I will respect and remember them as VICTIMS of an ANTI-MACEDONIAN GOVERNMENT they were willingly serving under.

What course would Macedonian history have taken if those who died in ambushes whilst in transit had lost their lives in active combat against the treasonous regime and in opposition to the Ramkoven? They certainly would now be the ABSOLUTE HEROES to me (and I should hope of many others, too!).

[Volk]

I have read some of your rants but this one is blatently disrespectful.

The chosen profession of the security forces should (or does) actually specify that the duties of these persons involves "putting your life on the line" and that is what they get PAID TO DO! I respect that they were doing the job they were paid to do.

What a stupid statement! your 'description' only applies to MERCENARIES. totally disrespectful, implying the only reason people defended thier country was for money... what an idiot.

I would love to hear what other member of the forum think of this statement time to show some true colours.

Im so disgusted I have no intention of responding to the rest of your garbage.

[julie]

If people enlist in the army voluntarily, it is because they want to serve their country , and abide by the wishes of the government, they are at their disposal.
If army service is compulsory, they are doing what they are doing because they have to do it, not necessarily because they want to do it. Money does not come into the equation.

The soldiers that died , did so because of the incompetent, disorganised and sold out government that had already decided to go with the ramkoven odgovor, the army had no choice but to act on the orders from the government, or lack of, and the government deliberately acted in a negligent manner by not protecting its soldiers with the bullshit equipment they provided them.
I hold the government accountable. Traiterous to the Macedonian cause and its people
May the soldiers and civilians that were killed at this time, rest in peace, they were trying to serve a corrupt and incompetent government contra to the positive outcome of NO interim accord and a sovereign state.
Today we are witnessing Middle East turmoil where the army is going contra to the government WITH SUPPORT FROM THEIR PEOPLE
IF Macedonians were not so brainwashed and sucked in by SDMS and VMRO which in my opnion have been contra to the preservation of our country and people, got up in arms, and stood up for what is morally, culturally and ethnically right, the army may have supported the people in a revolution, with minimal loss of lives, and we would not be over run with shiptari demanding further partitioning of our shrinking country, nor would we be arguing for the preservation of our name, and our very identity today

[fyrOM]

I have read some of your rants but this one is blatently disrespectful.



What a stupid statement! your 'description' only applies to MERCENARIES. totally disrespectful, implying the only reason people defended thier country was for money... what an idiot.

I would love to hear what other member of the forum think of this statement time to show some true colours.

Im so disgusted I have no intention of responding to the rest of your garbage.

It’s a low blow…a clarification might be in order…or people will make of it as they see it.

I do think some soldiers were sacrificed for good looks to put the wind up everyone and agree to the FA. A traitorous act. The fact they were paid or not in no way diminishes their patriotism.

[fyrOM]

Secondly, the "Braniteli" were mostly professional servicemen and reservists and were FOLLOWING ORDERS of a TREASONOUS and CAPITULATIONIST "UNITY GOVERNMENT"...and essentially approximately 1/3 of Macedonia was (and remains to this day) lost to the UCK as an exclusive (more or less) Gheg territory and THE STATE CEASED TO BE A MACEDONIAN ONE WITH THE IMPLEMENTATION OF THE OFA (Ramkoven dogovor)!

Lastly, IMO, real Braniteli in 2001 were those who courageously opposed the signing and voting in of the Ramkoven and those were few and far in between. And, from where I stand, the real, real BRANITELI today are only those who are consistent in their opposition to all past injustices and seek ways to reclaim the lost Macedonia and to reveres and redress ALL anti-Macedonian injustices.

So pochit,
I.

The soldiers may have been screwed over by their politicians and the outcome not to your liking but it is an unfair call to try to diminish their bravery patriotism or determination.

[indigen]

If people enlist in the army voluntarily, it is because they want to serve their country , and abide by the wishes of the government, they are at their disposal.

Yeah Julie, I would agree only if they enlist voluntarily when the need (security crisis) arises but if they made a career choice in times of peace and due to lack of other opportunities, it could be for many other varied reasons. I should expect that armed forces members who were professionals and drew pay from the state (the people) for many years that they should honourably fulfil their service obligations.

If army service is compulsory, they are doing what they are doing because they have to do it, not necessarily because they want to do it. Money does not come into the equation.

True but compulsory service also makes the whole population competent in the use of arms and probably less likely to accept the annexation of their country by armed aggressors or to allow traitors an easy free hand to commit treason, IMO.

The soldiers that died , did so because of the incompetent, disorganised and sold out government that had already decided to go with the ramkoven odgovor,

It is said that there were (officially?) about 64 deaths on the Macedonian side and I figure approx half died in a few ambushes where casualties were high and really it is a sad shame the lives were lost not in combat on the front-line in defence of the Fatherland but as political sacrifices in acts of treachery. Yes, the Ramkoven was cooked up very early on in 2001 (if not long before) and ALL these major ambush incidents occurred at very critical points in the drafting and endorsement of the same and served as psychological pressure on the Macedonian general populace so that it would readily and meekly accept whatever was imposed on them.

the army had no choice but to act on the orders from the government, or lack of, and the government deliberately acted in a negligent manner by not protecting its soldiers with the bullshit equipment they provided them.

There are many examples in the world where the army is the true keeper of national sovereignty and it often steps in to save a given nation. I wish we had a national army that would have done that in 1993, 1995 or 2001!

I hold the government accountable. Traitorous to the Macedonian cause and its people

Well, so do I but we still lost our country and the ARMY could have stopped that but they did not.

May the soldiers and civilians that were killed at this time, rest in peace, they were trying to serve a corrupt and incompetent government contra to the positive outcome of NO interim accord and a sovereign state.

Yes, may they rest in peace and let the traitors burn in HELL for eternity!

Today we are witnessing Middle East turmoil where the army is going contra to the government WITH SUPPORT FROM THEIR PEOPLE

Yes, and there are many, many other examples in history of armed forces doing the same.

IF Macedonians were not so brainwashed and sucked in by SDMS and VMRO which in my opinion have been contra to the preservation of our country and people, got up in arms, and stood up for what is morally, culturally and ethnically right, the army may have supported the people in a revolution, with minimal loss of lives, and we would not be over run with shiptari demanding further partitioning of our shrinking country, nor would we be arguing for the preservation of our name, and our very identity today

Good point/s!!!

[indigen]

The soldiers may have been screwed over by their politicians and the outcome not to your liking but it is an unfair call to try to diminish their bravery patriotism or determination.

I am not trying to diminish anything but trying to to put things in perspective from where I stand politically. We lost our country in 2001 - Macedonia is no longer a Macedonian national state and the RAMIFICATIONS from that are CATASTROPHIC for the Macedonian National Cause! Lets not play political emotional blackmail games with the sad loss of lives emanating from political treachery and apportion the blame where it is due.

Macedonia has had a bloody history in the last 130 years or so and many of us have direct family members who have either lost their lives or suffered in one way or another as a result of this tragic history. Thus the tragic loss of lives in 2001 is not so unique for Macedonians but is actually a continuation of a sad "tradition" to suffer at the hands of our enemies and traitors.

[indigen]

It’s a low blow…a clarification might be in order…or people will make of it as they see it.

I do think some soldiers were sacrificed for good looks to put the wind up everyone and agree to the FA. A traitorous act. The fact they were paid or not in no way diminishes their patriotism.

What do you want clarified? We lost our country in 2001!

[indigen]

I have read some of your rants but this one is blatently disrespectful.

I am not going to fall for some cheap emotional blackmail from a current supporter of the Ramkovist establishment!

What a stupid statement! your 'description' only applies to MERCENARIES. totally disrespectful, implying the only reason people defended thier country was for money... what an idiot.

Do NOT TWIST this for some cheap emotional political point-scoring!
Where did I say the "ONLY REASON" was money?

I would love to hear what other member of the forum think of this statement time to show some true colours.

Im so disgusted I have no intention of responding to the rest of your garbage.

Actually, I would love to know whether others remember the "Volci" going on "strike" in the middle of a military operation and what you thought/think of that! I can see how you ("Volk") would want to skip that part by smear tactics.

[Risto the Great]

Do we agree that 2001 was in fact a war?
I think it was last year that I first heard it described as a war.
If it was a war, we lost pitifully.
If it wasn't a war, we lost some Macedonian soldiers at the hands of a few terrorists.
Either way, it was a miserable failure and I personally find it hard to respect the "war effort" but obviously feel for the Macedonian soldiers who were victims in this process.

Have Macedonians had a great moment since 1993?