WSJ: Greece's Lies, Main Part of their Cultural Heritage

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  • Bratot
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 2855

    WSJ: Greece's Lies, Main Part of their Cultural Heritage

    In a not very subtle way, the Greek government is blackmailing the euro zone.

    To paraphrase, the Greek finance minister said that if the Germans don’t continue to bail Greece out, Greece will destroy the single currency.

    George Papaconstantinou’s actual words to the Financial Times were:


    “Restructuring [of Greek debt] is not going to happen… It would be a fundamental break to the unity of the euro zone.”
    But the message is the same. That’s because, notwithstanding Greek promises to bring the country’s finances under control, it is beyond belief that the Greek government can, or is even willing to, enforce the sort of austerity necessary to do so. As long as it cannot or will not, the rest of Europe–which, in effect, means Germany–will have to keep pumping money into the country.

    Otherwise, Greece will default on its debt. And given that a default of an individual member state is unworkable within the single-currency regime, this means a Greek withdrawal from the euro. And if Greece drops out, the markets are likely to force out other ‘peripheral’ European members.

    But how do we know the Greeks can’t and won’t meet the stringent criteria set out by the International Monetary Fund and the European Union?

    Michael Lewis, the author and financial journalist, gives a good account in the latest issue of Vanity Fair.

    Bear in mind the Greek government, by its own admission, routinely lied about just about every relevant statistic it published, while Transparency International rates Greece, together with Romania, as the most corrupt European Union country, ranking it lower than Ghana, Montenegro, Georgia and Tunisia. So because Greek statistics are so untrustworthy, anecdotal accounts are as good as you’re going to get.

    Lewis points out that it is reasonable to assume that almost everyone in Greece, including members of Parliament, lies about their tax position. Indeed, not paying taxes is endemic and cultural and unlikely to change soon, not least because the legal process of pursuing tax cheats is so endless, routinely lasting more than a decade, that the authorities don’t bother. And because bribery is so much part of the system, on those occasions when tax cheats are caught, they can usually buy their way out of trouble.

    For the Greek tax system to be restructured, the country first has to restructure its legal system and somehow end its culture of corruption. No Greek government has a hope in hell of forcing these changes.

    Even if you do believe Greek statistics–a very, very foolish proposition for someone investing his own money, though easier to do if you’re, say, the European Union and are spending taxpayers’ funds–they don’t look particularly attractive.

    During the first eight months of this year, tax revenues rose 3.3% year-on-year against an official target of 13.7%. True, part of that shortfall will have been caused by a deeper-than-expected economic downturn, triggered by the sovereign-debt crisis. But a third of the Greek economy is underground, unidentified, much less subject to tax. It is a safe bet that the more taxes the government demands, the more the productive part of the economy will hide.

    But wait, say supporters, what about the fact that Greece has cut public-sector wages by 15% and operating expenditure by 50%.

    First, it would be unrealistic to assume that the Greek government is not massaging these figures to look good. Greeks have always sought the easy way to credibility: trust me, they say. And then they’ve turned around and lied and, historically, defaulted.
    A safe assumption would be that revenues are even lower than reported and that expenditure is even higher. Never mind audits by the European Union and the IMF. It is not in either’s interest to force a Greek default. So they will play along with fudges and even outright lies as long as they’re not too egregious. But what may be acceptable gray areas to them are unlikely to be so for prudent investors.

    Second, even with enormous rescue schemes and preferential interest rates, the Greek debt load is proving impossible to contain. The interest bill on its debt during the first eight months of this year was 7% up on the same period last year. Unless the Greek government manages to somehow run a surplus in the not-too-distant future (which is unlikely for the reasons listed above) it will have to continue to be bailed out. The alternative is a debt death spiral and default.

    So given the Greek government faces an impossible situation, what incentive does it have to offer much more than cosmetic changes–especially if it believes that the German commitment to the euro is greater than its revulsion at having to keep bailing Greece out? In a word, none.

    Clearly, it has to do something. To spit so obviously in the faces of its sponsors would trigger a crisis. But by appearing to do something, while not actually intending to produce too much, Greece can have the benefit of continuing support. Any sign that support will be withdrawn can always be met by a new threat and a new promise.

    The Greek government has no credibility. Nor does it deserve any. And ultimately, it will default.

    The purpose of the media is not to make you to think that the name must be changed, but to get you into debate - what name would suit us! - Bratot
  • DirtyCodingHabitz
    Member
    • Sep 2010
    • 835

    #2
    Greece's Lies, Main Part of their Cultural Heritage
    Its a fact .

    The world will see and understand the truth about modern greece.

    Comment

    • julie
      Senior Member
      • May 2009
      • 3869

      #3
      Greece is holding the EU at ransom. The EU is a joke, it makes me wonder how much money has changed hands under the table with corrupt officials of the EU , Greece has a hold over the EU, corruption is rampant, must be, why else does the EU not kick Greece out??
      Equality, no discrimination my ass, it is a bullshit concept encouraged by the Western world to destabilise countries and leave them in debt. When you hold a countries debt you have them by the balls. Greece has dirt on the EU which is why they continue to make demands on the EU that are contra to what they perceive themselves to stand for.
      I dont give a shit about Germany having to continue to bail them out (sorry my Maco brothers and sisters there) because Germany has the power to encourage Macedonia be recognized under its rightful name, and they are not doing jack shit .
      Macedonians in RoM, wake up, every country part of the big boys club is slowly but surely going broke to bail HellArse out, and Macedonia on entering EU will enjoy the benefits of an economy that will nose dive.
      "The moral revolution - the revolution of the mind, heart and soul of an enslaved people, is our greatest task."__________________Gotse Delchev

      Comment

      • makedonche
        Senior Member
        • Oct 2008
        • 3242

        #4
        Bratot
        Good thread, I eagerly await the default of Greece! Then maybe we can resume our rightfull place among the world without any racist propoganda to slow us down!
        On Delchev's sarcophagus you can read the following inscription: "We swear the future generations to bury these sacred bones in the capital of Independent Macedonia. August 1923 Illinden"

        Comment

        • fyrOM
          Banned
          • Feb 2010
          • 2180

          #5
          One assumption in the article is if Greece fails then it will drag other poor performing members down and destroy the Euro and Germany doesn’t want this to happen.

          What about if Greece was told you are a liar and for this reason you are left to hang and then using the money instead of going to Greece goes to propping up the rest of the eu. After all can the markets punish the euro so much if Greece drops out that it destabilises other eu member enough to crash. Didn’t Germany and France recently verbally clash over wether or not to help Greece and Germany being against.

          Does it sound like the threat is not great enough for the size of the reaction and is there is more to the story.

          You might remember the piece on the Suez canal as the reason for creating Greece and at the same time destroying Macedonia. I think the Greeks know this as well as the west and it would not look good for the eu if the west was painted as the deliberate destroyer of a nation and a people.

          The eu and the west are desperate to influence the rest of the world by holding themselves up as morally right and that going along with them leads to fairness justice and the rule of law where you will not be discriminated against. The fact they didn’t completely succeed in wiping out the Macedonians means now they have to deal with a government if they want that part of the Balkans in their fold.

          How they deal with Macedonia is being watched by the world as a prelude to how they might be dealt with given that Macedonia is hard bent on being with them and even sending troops to help them. It would be very embarrassing for them to deal with Macedonia with the world watching and have to admit they tried to annihilate a nation and people just to create a greater buffer zone to Greece proper and fill it with non native people in a forced assimilation to forge an identity and will to defend their homeland if the need ever arose. Cheating thieving Greeky never to miss an opportunity to grab something for nothing seized this embarrassing fact as leverage to screw the eu and west anytime they want. Its also partly the reason Yugoslavia got some favour from the west despite being one of those commis.

          You might think is it really that embarrassing. Just remember what it means not only to wipe out a whole people but the very memory of them just for their land and then hold yourself up as bastion of truth and justice. History books will need to be rewritten or leave the Macedonians in the history books and call these leftovers a kind of Macedonian ie north new upper ect because they at some point in time moved into Macedonian land.

          Macedonia showing herself as being with the west can give them the confidents to try and save face by finding archaeological proof we are the Macedonians and claim that Greeky is lying that they knew all along. Yes they helped the Greeks establish themselves thinking they were doing good but it was the Greeks who wiped out and murdered whole villages by the hundreds. It was the wars of the time. They can claim the Serbs and Bulgarians are also to blame. The west are still always morally right. When Greeky says what about all the archaeological evidence you got me to hide in the basement in the past. A simple reply Its your basement.

          Comment

          • Onur
            Senior Member
            • Apr 2010
            • 2389

            #6
            Originally posted by OziMak View Post
            One assumption in the article is if Greece fails then it will drag other poor performing members down and destroy the Euro and Germany doesn’t want this to happen.

            Thats right.

            It`s a fact that if Greece goes bankrupt and obliged to change her currency back to drachma, then some other members would probably follow this path and then this leads to the destruction of Euro currency and possibly the destruction of European Union too.

            Greece knows this and they abuse this fact by threatening and blackmailing EU to convince them to continue to feed Greece for more money. So, they keep yelling like "YOU CANT ABANDON US!".


            I don't think Germany is the primary decisive factor here. I think it`s the French who convinces Germans to give more money to Greece because i believe German people aware that they don't need EU as much as France and others does and they can be as prosperous as before even if EU collapses. So, Germans are just being the source of money here.


            Greeks are rightful on one thing tough. It`s the current EU leaders who created Greece and they have to take care of them. They are just 10 million people with relatively moderate economy, so it shouldn't be too difficult for EU to feed and nurture their beloved and so-called "cradle of European democracy". I mean, you cannot abandon your child just because he is a spoiled brat. Thats what Greeks says to the EU nowadays.

            Comment

            • freifrau
              Banned
              • Sep 2010
              • 89

              #7
              Originally posted by Onur View Post
              Thats right.

              I don't think Germany is the primary decisive factor here. I think it`s the French who convinces Germans to give more money to Greece because i believe German people aware that they don't need EU as much as France and others does and they can be as prosperous as before even if EU collapses. So, Germans are just being the source of money here.
              "It's the French who convince Germans"..?
              It is not your neighborhood where some kids convince others...!
              Germany is actually the strongest and more stable economy in the union.
              The decision to support economically the weakest parts of the union was a consiouss decision in order the union to be stable too.
              This was combined by radical measures and active warning.
              It would not be a good idea the EU to collapse and together what was built for 50 years.
              So much efforts,money and time was invested and this is not going to be wasted -no matter how much USA or minor states would be happy if this happened.

              Greeks are rightful on one thing tough. It`s the current EU leaders who created Greece and they have to take care of them. They are just 10 million people with relatively moderate economy, so it shouldn't be too difficult for EU to feed and nurture their beloved and so-called "cradle of European democracy". I mean, you cannot abandon your child just because he is a spoiled brat. Thats what Greeks says to the EU nowadays.
              The current EU leaders created Greece?
              What do you mean ?

              Comment

              • Onur
                Senior Member
                • Apr 2010
                • 2389

                #8
                Originally posted by freifrau View Post
                "It's the French who convince Germans"..?
                It is not your neighborhood where some kids convince others...!
                Germany is actually the strongest and more stable economy in the union.
                The decision to support economically the weakest parts of the union was a consiouss decision in order the union to be stable too.
                As far as we learned from media and press, it was Sarkozy who convinced Merkel to give money to Greeks, otherwise Germans wasn't that fancy to do that and Merkel has been highly criticized by German public an media for accepting this. Also it`s so obvious that it is the French who highly believes the project called EU, not Germans. Germany is already nothing more than a financier of EU. The most important decisions always taken by French and Belgian francophones.





                The current EU leaders created Greece?
                What do you mean ?
                Who are the leaders and most powerful states of EU? French, Germans and Brits to some degree and who created a country called Greece in 19th century? If you wanna learn something, then i suggest you to take the advice of forum administrators and venture into the history section here.

                Comment

                • freifrau
                  Banned
                  • Sep 2010
                  • 89

                  #9
                  Originally posted by Onur View Post
                  Germany is already nothing more than a financier of EU. The most important decisions always taken by French and Belgian francophones.
                  This is your assumption.
                  Besides i think it is not hard to understand that your quote is irrational.
                  Germany is the financer and does not really take the decisions? So do you believe Germans are morons?

                  Who are the leaders and most powerful states of EU? French, Germans and Brits to some degree and who created a country called Greece in 19th century? If you wanna learn something, then i suggest you to take the advice of forum administrators and venture into the history section here.
                  Believing that current international relationships are based on sentimental factors or historical events 200 years ago is out of reality.

                  If the historical and sentimental factors were really important i could really understand such a behavior.
                  I mean that Europe cannot be identified without Greece.
                  Imagine what would really be Europe without the ancient Greek civilization.

                  Comment

                  • Napoleon
                    Junior Member
                    • Dec 2008
                    • 98

                    #10
                    I believe if Greece left the EU there would be wide spread starvation within three months. I don't think there has ever been a time since its creation where the existence of modern Greece hasn't been funded by western European countries.

                    Comment

                    • Onur
                      Senior Member
                      • Apr 2010
                      • 2389

                      #11
                      Originally posted by freifrau View Post
                      This is your assumption.
                      Besides i think it is not hard to understand that your quote is irrational.
                      Germany is the financer and does not really take the decisions? So do you believe Germans are morons?
                      What i am saying is; Germany`s political influence is no where near represents her economical power, neither it`s equal. France is far more predominant factor then Germany when it comes to taking decisions about EU`s future. Thats the case since WW-2 ended. I mean, when i look at the economical power of Germany, i can clearly see that Germany`s political influence is no where near powerful as her economy.

                      OR you can read one of my old message here for a possible reason of why Germans obeys French when it comes to decision taking about EU;

                      Germans No Longer Believe in Capitalism

                      Germans No Longer Believe in Capitalism http://macedoniaonline.eu/content/view/16282/53/ Thursday, 19 August 2010 A great majority of German citizens no longer believe in capitalism and they wish for new structure of society, the newest research conducted bu Emnid institute showed. A total of 88 percent of German






                      Believing that current international relationships are based on sentimental factors or historical events 200 years ago is out of reality.

                      If the historical and sentimental factors were really important i could really understand such a behavior.
                      I mean that Europe cannot be identified without Greece.
                      Imagine what would really be Europe without the ancient Greek civilization.

                      Sentimental factors? Where did i say that? All these are pure politics, nothing else and there is no place for sentiments in politics. No one created Greece just because of their affection to the ancient Greek civilization. Well, maybe it can look like this when we read propaganda articles but it`s not about sentiments.

                      Besides, you cannot evaluate history in a life span of humans. Longevity is relative when you think about the history of politics. Sometimes 50 years can be considered as very long but sometimes 200 years can be relatively short when you look at the history of world politics.




                      I mean that Europe cannot be identified without Greece.
                      Imagine what would really be Europe without the ancient Greek civilization.
                      Thats what i said already. You told modern Greeks that they are the descendants of Homer and Achilles and the you created them as a proof for your mythical cradle of European democracy. So, you have to take care of them like you did for the past 200 years. So, western Europeans either announce that modern Greek history was a lie or better shut up and continue to give some more money as the Greek politicians requests from you to do so...
                      Last edited by Onur; 09-25-2010, 11:53 AM.

                      Comment

                      • fyrOM
                        Banned
                        • Feb 2010
                        • 2180

                        #12
                        Freifrau Onur is right I don’t have the article at hand but it was France who was threatening Germany to break-up the eu if Greece was not supported. Germany was initially showing signs of not supporting Greece.

                        In reality if Greece dropped out of the eu I doubt it would drag the eu down.

                        Comment

                        • Risto the Great
                          Senior Member
                          • Sep 2008
                          • 15658

                          #13
                          France AND Germany both have huge investments in Greece. Allowing Greece to sink would have had a major impact on France and Germany. The recent arms deal is yet another example of the "worst" of the EU.
                          Berlin and Paris have used the bailout of Greece to force Athens to agree to massive arms procurement deals.


                          France has almost twice as much invested in Greece than Germany has.
                          Risto the Great
                          MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                          "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                          Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                          Comment

                          • Risto the Great
                            Senior Member
                            • Sep 2008
                            • 15658

                            #14
                            Originally posted by freifrau View Post
                            I mean that Europe cannot be identified without Greece.
                            Imagine what would really be Europe without the ancient Greek civilization.
                            You see the revolting stupidity that passes for conversation here sometimes. Show me where the ancient Greeks are now.
                            Risto the Great
                            MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                            "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                            Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                            Comment

                            • freifrau
                              Banned
                              • Sep 2010
                              • 89

                              #15
                              Originally posted by Risto the Great View Post
                              You see the revolting stupidity that passes for conversation here sometimes. Show me where the ancient Greeks are now.

                              Everywhere.
                              From the colums of Reichstag to the labs of CERN.

                              As for the politeness of the comment, i really appreciate so kind and civilized persons.

                              Comment

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