International Court of Justice - Macedonia and Greece

[Ljubanec]

ICJ defeat for Greece

What are your thoughts?

http://macedoniaonline.eu/content/view/17888/2/

Facing ICJ Defeat, Greece Looking to Quit Agreement
Sunday, 03 April 2011

Athens is considering the option to nullify the 1995 Interim Agreement with Macedonia after facing a legal defeat at the Hague, says yesterday's edition of Greek daily Kathimerini.

Stavros Ligeros, the author of the article claims if Greece had quit the Agreement earlier, Skopje wouldn't have had the opportunity to sue Athens. Now, says Ligeros, Greece is looking at an embarassing outcome, losing a legal challenge at the ICJ. Athens should have never allowed a political problem with Skopje to turn into a legal problem, says Ligeros.
Greek Media blames the former government led by Karamanlis, but also the current for not quitting the Agreement.

To make matters worse for the Greek side, its media mentions Evangelos Kofos and Christos Rozakis who in 1996 and 2001 said Greece had given up its right to blackmail/block Macedonia on its path to NATO and the EU. In a way, both Kofos and Rozakis had written Macedonia's lawsuit against Greece at the ICJ.

Macedonian analyst are not surprised by Greece's moves and consideration of abandoning the 1995 Interim Agreement. The fact that Athens is looking at quitting the interim agreement is a sign that official Athens if not confident then is certainly leaning towards losing the lawsuit at the ICJ.

Macedonian experts explain Greece's withdrawal from the agreement will mean more blockades for the country, however the blockades are in place for several years now, in other words nothing changes. Once the agreement is abandoned, Athens can no longer make requests on which symbols, flags, (Kutlesh) sun, or names Macedonia uses.

[Vangelovski]

If this is true, and Greece declares the Interim Accord null and void, it would mean Greece saved our national sovereignty while our own government was selling it out. Although it would give us the end we seek, it would be a national disgrace!

All said, I highly doubt Greece would take this road. The Interim Accord provides them with control (because of our government's idiotic willingness to comply with it) over Macedonian national affairs.

[Soldier of Macedon]

If this is true, and Greece declares the Interim Accord null and void, it would mean Greece saved our national sovereignty while our own government was selling it out. Although it would give us the end we seek, it would be a national disgrace!

Although this is a disgraceful means to an end, like someone once said, better an end with horrors than horrors without end. Even though we all know that this wasn't the intention of the Macedonian government, one can only hope that Greece declares the IA null and void.

[makedonche]

Guys
Are we going to sit here and hope somebody else ends the onslaught on our identity? Just for once I would like to see a positive step from our politicians and to take the initiative and declare it null and void.

[Risto the Great]

Although this is a disgraceful means to an end, like someone once said, better an end with horrors than horrors without end. Even though we all know that this wasn't the intention of the Macedonian government, one can only hope that Greece declares the IA null and void.

It would be too hollow. Kind of like how Macedonia seceded from Yugoslavia. The nation needs to assert itself and I cannot see how this will help the mindset of Macedonians in the future. I cannot call it a win in any shape or fashion.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Like I said, I don't agree with the means, but if the IA is declared null and void, it is a win for the Macedonian Cause.

[Vangelovski]

Thinking about it further, it would only be a shallow win of little use. RtG makes a point, it would not teach the Macedonian people anything. They would still suffer from a slave mentality and readily capitulate the next time the wind blows. The only way to ensure a change of mind and soul, so that they really appreciate their freedom and protect it, is for them to go through the necessary moral/intellectual revolution and declare it null and void themselves.

[George S.]

if it only serves to change the govt to pull out of the name negotitions.If macedonians don't learn from it well it's only their fault.

[Prolet]

Here is the Macedonian Version of this story

http://sitel.com.mk/video/makedonija/grcija-najavila-povlekuvanje-od-vremenata-spogodba

[GStojanov]

Facing ICJ Defeat, Greece Looking to Quit Agreement

http://macedoniaonline.eu/content/view/17888/2/

Athens is considering the option to nullify the 1995 Interim Agreement with Macedonia after facing a legal defeat at the Hague, says yesterday's edition of Greek daily Kathimerini.

Stavros Ligeros, the author of the article claims if Greece had quit the Agreement earlier, Skopje wouldn't have had the opportunity to sue Athens. Now, says Ligeros, Greece is looking at an embarassing outcome, losing a legal challenge at the ICJ. Athens should have never allowed a political problem with Skopje to turn into a legal problem, says Ligeros.

Greek Media blames the former government led by Karamanlis, but also the current for not withdrawing from the Agreement.

To make matters worse for the Greek side, its media mentions Evangelos Kofos and Christos Rozakis who in 1996 and 2001 said Greece had given up its right to blackmail/block Macedonia on its path to NATO and the EU. In a way, both Kofos and Rozakis had written Macedonia's lawsuit against Greece at the ICJ.

Macedonian analyst are not surprised by Greece's moves and consideration of abandoning the 1995 Interim Agreement. The fact that Athens is looking to quit the interim agreement is a sign that official Athens if not confident then is certainly expecting to lose the lawsuit at the ICJ.

Macedonian experts explain Greece's withdrawal from the agreement will mean more blockades for the country, however the blockades are in place for several years now, in other words nothing changes. Once the agreement is abandoned, Athens can no longer make requests on which symbols, flags, (Kutlesh) sun, or names Macedonia uses.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Can everybody that is going to post on the ICJ do it in this thread, I don't want to keep merging different threads on the same topic every few days.

[Soldier of Macedon]

The only way to ensure a change of mind and soul, so that they really appreciate their freedom and protect it, is for them to go through the necessary moral/intellectual revolution and declare it null and void themselves.

If Greece does declare it null and void, the moral and intellectual revolution can still take place afterwards - although I would rather that it takes place before and during, as you're suggesting. I agree with what both of you are saying, but I would be happy to accept this action from Greece as it does further the Macedonian Cause.

[Daskalot]

Why has Macedonia brought Greece in front of the ICJ?

I am asking the question 'Why has Macedonia brought Greece in front of the ICJ?', therefore I would like to find the real underlying issue to this question with the help of all our members here on the forum.
So please help me out here.

WHY?

[makedonche]

Daskalot
Good question, my understanding follows:-
Macedonia was supposedly blocked by Greece in an attempt to join nato in 2008 at the Bucharest summit. Macedonia then commenced legal proceedings against greece due to the fact that under the terms of the Framework Agreement betwen the countries, Greece would not hinder Macedonia's entrance into international organisations if it used the acceptable acronym of "Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia".
Maecdonia applied for entry into NATO under the acronym and Greece vetoed it's entrance into the club, which then led to the legal proceedings - in a nutshell!
It appears that Macedonia has gone to the ICJ to enforce a ruling on being allowed to enter NATO as "FYROM", or more precisely, that Greece blocked Macedonia from entering NATO as "FYROM".
This is my view in summary form, please correct me if I have missed anything or if I am incorrect in any way.

[Soldier of Macedon]

I am asking the question 'Why has Macedonia brought Greece in front of the ICJ?', therefore I would like to find the real underlying issue to this question with the help of all our members here on the forum.
So please help me out here.

WHY?

It isn't for the sake of ensuring Macedonia's name, as they are suing Greece for not calling us 'fyrom' in international organisations.

It isn't for the sake of ensuring the self-respect and integrity of Macedonians, as they are suing Greece for not calling us 'fyrom' in international organisations.

In answer to your question of 'why', Daskale, I would have to respond with one of either three things:

1) Our government is led by traitors.

2) Our government is led by weaklings.

3) Our government is stupid.

Could be a combination of all three.


Oh yeah, some morons claim that our government has a "master plan".