International Court of Justice - Macedonia and Greece

[George S.]

RTG has got it in a nutshell.We need to do what alexander done & that is think smart.Cut through the BS.Go back to the fundamental rights.DOn't fall for agreement etec etc.
The politicians should not be tinkering with our identity.We need someone who will stand up to greece that demands real balls & guts were still waiting for someone to show up.

[Soldier of Macedon]

The government has mostly hid its strategy regarding the name issue (if it even has one)......

The government has no strategy on the name issue other than keeping it to the side so it doesn't impede on its real strategy, which is EU and NATO entry. You give them far too much credit, none of them in the last 20 years have been able to gather enough intellectual capacity for such a 'strategy'. The truth is not as exciting.

the double name forumula is not spoken about anymore.....

What are they saying now, are they back to 'mutually acceptable solution'?

how can they enforce fyrom if the ICJ cannot push Macedonia into EU or NATO regardless of a victory...

Power to enforce, no power to enforce, the fact is that the Macedonian government is taking it's Greek equivalent to the ICJ because the latter blocked the former's entry into the EU and NATO by the name 'fyrom'. If the Greek side didn't block, the Macedonian side wouldn't have taken them to the ICJ, and we would now be 'fyrom' or 'RM-S' (sounds like a machine gun) in EU and NATO in addition to the UN.

I cannot believe that some of you are still looking to the clouds for possible scenarios when the answer is right in front of you.

[makedonche]

Daskalot

Greece blocked Macedonia's entry into NATO because once Macedonia was in NATO, Greeced could no longer threaten Macedonia with embargoes, blockades etc. Once Macedonia got into NATO and was then assured of military/economic protection then Greece's position was substantially weakened and it no longer held the upper hand over Macedonia. So the question "WHY" in my view gets the answer- " To maintain it's bargaining power over Macedonia and keep macedonia suppressed and weak, so that Macedonia could not demand it's soverign/human/natural rights - until Greece was happy with a new name for these people wanting to call themselves Macedonia- and therefore Macedonia could not try and reclaim stolen land or rights for it's people in other countries(predominantly FOPOG).

[Soldier of Macedon]

As long as Macedonia continues to look at agreements and words and complicated conventions, it is bound by bureaucratic Gordian knots. The example Macedonians must follow is to be drawn from our own history and folklore. Alexander's sword simply cut through it.



The sword Macedonia needs to use is simple fundamental rights. It is so simple that too many people think it cannot possibly work. For the naysayers ..... it has never been tried.

That is an excellent analogy.

[Pelister]

Please give as many possible reasons to WHY Greece did act in this way.

It's part of a war of extermination.

Also, by blocking Macedonia's admission, Greece is able to achieve two important things, one, to create the perception that it has a legitimate claim over the new territory, and a legitimate grievance against the indigenous land holders. Two, to cleverly and carefully change the 'question' and therefore the nature and extent of the 'negotiations' from a bilateral issue with specific reference to UN admission, to something else entirely.

Finally, when we take a step back from everything that is happening right now, what is clear is that Gruevski is the one meddling with our identity - not the Greeks. The Greeks can say what they want and they usually do, but it is Gruevski who has our identity on the negotiating table - no one else.

[fyrOM]

If this is true, and Greece declares the Interim Accord null and void, it would mean Greece saved our national sovereignty while our own government was selling it out. Although it would give us the end we seek, it would be a national disgrace!

All said, I highly doubt Greece would take this road. The Interim Accord provides them with control (because of our government's idiotic willingness to comply with it) over Macedonian national affairs.

Would it really be a "national disgrace"? To me, Macedonia being recognised as Macedonia is THE most important thing (and surviving the process ofcouse), and I really don't give a flying F if it was by hook or by crook or even if Martians came down and told the world to call Macedonia by her rightful name. This is Not 'Boxing and you can't hit bellow the belt' - this is 'street-fighting' (legal/scheming/outmaneuver style) kick'em in the balls or wherever to get the job done and disgrace/embarrassment be damned.

RTG Post511...

It would be too hollow. Kind of like how Macedonia seceded from Yugoslavia. The nation needs to assert itself and I cannot see how this will help the mindset of Macedonians in the future. I cannot call it a win in any shape or fashion.

How is one to interpret the above, RTG???

Is it that Macedonia was the ONLY republic to secede from Yugoslavia WITHOUT a war that bothers you?

Is it ALSO bothering you that Macedonia is not risking violence to establish her rightful name?

Is it a 'He Man - Let's Fight' that gets you off?

Is this really how you think?
...
...



Just to throw in another part of the jig-saw of the over-all picture I have been repeatedly posting about....

Fersped records revenue of 4.2 Billion MKD for 2010

http://macedoniaonline.eu/content/view/17963/1/

Thursday, 14 April 2011

Macedonian freight forwarding company Fersped recorded positive financial results last year. The company’s revenue reached MKD 4.214 billion in revenues and its profit after tax amounted to MKD 134.2, reads the company’s statement sent to the Macedonian Stock Exchange. The company paid dividend of MKD 29,986,310 or MKD 1,680 per share.

According to Fersped, these results have been achieved in a year when the company worked with lower number of business activities, without customs mediation and storage. They also accepted the challenge of devising Bar port project with the goal of following the strategy of clients in Serbia, Kosovo and Montenegro for finding alternative solutions for the Solun port problem.

Sound like something?

GStojanov Post516...

Macedonian experts explain Greece's withdrawal from the agreement will mean more blockades for the country, however the blockades are in place for several years now, in other words nothing changes. Once the agreement is abandoned, Athens can no longer make requests on which symbols, flags, (Kutlesh) sun, or names Macedonia uses.

Is it still looking like 'madness in the method' or 'method in the madness'?

As I said, I don't have 'WikiLeaks' style documents/proof to prove it to you, so we will just wait a while for things crop up, and I'll try to point them out as they happen - until then, I'll take a 'back-seat' and leave you to your discussions.

By the way...

Conference on use of geothermal energy in Macedonia

http://macedoniaonline.eu/content/view/17877/45/

...President Ivanov said Macedonia is located in one of only 19 geothermal regions on the planet.
"There are over 25 registered natural sources of geothermal waters in Macedonia, with temperatures exceeding 21 degrees Celsius. Macedonia's geothermal potential increases the interest over its use for electricity output", stressed Ivanov.
...
...
...

If you remember energy independence is one of the key points to fight a blockade by Greece.

Also...

Bitola - Elbasan Power Line in the works
http://macedoniaonline.eu/content/view/17953/2/

Selling electricity to the Albanians

Macedonia Plants Additional 3 Million Trees
http://macedoniaonline.eu/content/view/17875/45/

Mak FinMin: Government to preserve citizens' living standard
http://macedoniaonline.eu/content/view/17884/45/

German companies scanning Macedonia for investments
http://macedoniaonline.eu/content/view/17899/45/

I like to think the government is preparing the country for either eventuality with Greece ect.

[Vangelovski]

fyrOM, WTF are you on about? Are you smoking your bongs again? How about you actually just wait until the end of the ICJ process, like you keep saying you will, and stop clogging the forum up with your acid trips.

[fyrOM]

fyrOM, WTF are you on about? Are you smoking your bongs again? How about you actually just wait until the end of the ICJ process, like you keep saying you will, and stop clogging the forum up with your acid trips.

You (collective) have been saying the government isn't doing anything to advance Macedonia's identity - you seem to think ripping-up the IA and FA is the Only way! - and if someone, anyone, would post these (see previous post) bits of the picture I wouldn't need nor want to post.

Acid trip??? - still with the name calling (play against the man, Not the points), pathetically weak, as usual!

...They also accepted the challenge of devising Bar port project with the goal of following the strategy of clients in Serbia, Kosovo and Montenegro for finding alternative solutions for the Solun port problem.
...

AND

...Macedonian experts explain Greece's withdrawal from the agreement will mean more blockades for the country,...Once the agreement is abandoned, Athens can no longer make requests on which symbols, flags, (Kutlesh) sun, or names Macedonia uses.

IS THE RELEVANCE OF THE ABOVE TO THE NAME ISSUE AND ICJ TOTALLY LOST ON YOU??? or are you so stubborn you refuse to acknowledge anything even when it's put under your nose, just out of spite?

I love it when you make my job easier by show up your stupidity by yourselves.

[Vangelovski]

fyrOM, didn't you promise to spare us your acid trips until the end of the ICJ case, when you will either disapear completely or pretend it was some sort of victory?

[fyrOM]

fyrOM, didn't you promise to spare us your acid trips until the end of the ICJ case, when you will either disapear completely or pretend it was some sort of victory?

In other threads I did say I would post, "as necessary".

In this thread...
fyrOM/OziMak...Post520

As I said, I don't have 'WikiLeaks' style documents/proof to prove it to you, so we will just wait a while for things to crop up, and I'll try to point them out as they happen - until then, I'll take a 'back-seat' and leave you to your discussions.

fyrOM/OziMak...Post522

You (collective) have been saying the government isn't doing anything to advance Macedonia's identity - you seem to think ripping-up the IA and FA is the Only way! - and if someone, anyone, would post these (see previous post) bits of the picture I wouldn't need nor want to post.

Don't hide (by ignoring/not posting) the truth (key actions to fight an embargo - eg Transport/Freight and Energy needs - and strategy), then claim nothing is being done to promote Macedonia.

Believe me, I would much rather Not need to post anything.

No acid trips here, just some Mastika followed by Maznik and Kebapi.

[Vangelovski]

Pointing out a few strands of wheat among an entire field of weeds and then claiming the harvest is plentiful is an acid trip. The random bits of information you have come across do not demonstrate any strategy. When looked at in context of all the information (where our vassal politicians, many of whom consider themselves to be part of other nations, have betrayed our people) your evidence for some sort of strategy is more than pathetic.

I wonder what your price will be to continue claiming "victory" after the ICJ case?

[fyrOM]

Pointing out a few strands of wheat among an entire field of weeds and then claiming the harvest is plentiful is an acid trip. The random bits of information you have come across do not demonstrate any strategy. When looked at in context of all the information (where our vassal politicians, many of whom consider themselves to be part of other nations, have betrayed our people) your evidence for some sort of strategy is more than pathetic.

I wonder what your price will be to continue claiming "victory" after the ICJ case?

The reality of strategy is you cannot play by publicly announcing in newspapers months or years in advance what you are planning just so fyrOM can have something to quote on the MTO for you to believe there is more going on, but likewise, you cannot always move from point A to point B without anyone noticing and some things being reported in newspapers. You and I are then left to guess the ramifications of those actions, which on face value may not look significant, and how they fit into any plan that may be in play.

Just think -
If the government WANTS to capitulate, as you seem to think, then Macedonia becomes X Macedonia (ie North, New, ect) and Greece is happy and Macedonia enters the EU and NATO as X Macedonia and freight moves through the port of Solun without a problem - everything is Ok, right? so there should be No need for any additional action other than drinking more to celebrate becoming X Macedonians - right?

Then...

1. Why would the government ask a major freight company to find SUITABLE ALTERNATE ROUTS to move freight NOT through the port of Solun in anticipation of a future blockade by Greece? Something sound strange to you?

2. Mind you, finding these routs and implementing any changes/infrastructure needed would be a lot of work and hence take a lot of time - maybe a few years.

Do you -

i, announce something that will piss Greece off and cause a blockade now, when you first thought of it, years in advance of having an alternate rout?

OR

ii, hold off making any announcements and keep saying you are still negotiating/looking for a soution (hahaha - inside joke) and cop being called names for a few years until the alternate routs are in place, even though you know fyrOM will have nothing in print form to quote and prove to the MTO there is a plan, and hence, also cop being called names??
(the scumbags!! - how dare they hide information and leave me out to dry! and cop being called stupid, bong smoking, acid tripping, ect. anti-Macedonian!!! Just wait till I see Grujo and tell him off!)

Just think and look for the signs and think some more.

This is just one example that the government has been thinking and doing things for years to protect the Macedonian identity - do you need more? then re-read my posts.

In any plan comes the "Ta-Da!!!" moment - you know, like when a stripper jumps out of the cake and says, "Ta-DA!! - when you have to do stuff to make things happen and your opponent starts noticing this action then that action and puts it all together and they know what your doing but its too late for them to do anything to stop you - TA-DA!!!!

[Vangelovski]

Macedonia is probably looking at alternate ports because they may be cheaper. Solun isn't the cheapest or shortest route. I highly doubt it has anything to do with their capitulations (already) or any planned future capitulations.

fyrOM, how much will it cost the Macedonian taxpayers for you to continue claiming a victory after the ICJ fiasco ends?

[fyrOM]

Macedonia is probably looking at alternate ports because they may be cheaper. Solun isn't the cheapest or shortest route. I highly doubt it has anything to do with their capitulations (already) or any planned future capitulations.

When peoples' beliefs (religious or otherwise - even on a principle) are challenged their natural reaction is to dig their heals in and resist all things which challenge that belief. This part is understandable as it is just human nature.

When further evidence is provided, most people try to understand the evidence to see if it is valid, yet you have this tenacity to be belligerent and dismiss everything out of hand. Are you deliberately trying to do this, (falsely) thinking that if you stone-wall me enough I will go away, and that somehow this will stop/prevent reality from happening? (ie that the government has a plan and are implementing it) or is it just your recalcitrant nature?

Look at the quotes from the articles again...

Macedonian freight forwarding company Fersped...also accepted the challenge of devising Bar port project with the goal of following the strategy of clients in Serbia, Kosovo and Montenegro for finding alternative solutions for the Solun port problem.

AND

Macedonian experts explain Greece's withdrawal from the agreement will mean more blockades for the country,

Does this Really sound like Just looking for a Cheaper alternative or do you think the words, "Solun port problem", could mean something 'other' than solving a financial operational cost problem? It's a pity the article doesn't spell it out more for people, like you, who seem to need spot-light highlighting a fact before you even notice it, let alone accept it. Let's hope a better article comes out phrased more clearly to remove any ambiguity.

fyrOM, how much will it cost the Macedonian taxpayers for you to continue claiming a victory after the ICJ fiasco ends?

Are you offering me a job, Vangelovski?
By mentioning, "after the ICJ fiasco ends?", which every one knows is at the end of the year, and hence after this year's elections, it sounds like you intend to candidate yourself, and expect to win a diaspora seat in parliament, possibly putting you in a position to higher me at Macedonian Taxpayer expense. I am flattered that you recognise and value the caliber of my work so much to think I am worth being paid. Just out of curiosity, how much did you have in mind??
I still wouldn't vote for you anyway - my sense of patriotic duty prevents me from voting for anyone I believe will work against Macedonia's interests, no-matter how unintentional their misguided views were.

By the way...

Solun isn't the cheapest or shortest route.

which route is shorter (and possibly cheaper) than Solun?


possibly via...
Albania, who could become closed if a repeat of 2001 happens - and is it really a significantly shorter distance?
Montenegro, via Kosovo, our newest 'best buds'?
Montenegro, roundabout Serbia?
or
Turkey, via Bulgaria?

mmm...I wonder which one is shorter than solun (and has some security)?
What do you recon, Vangelovski?

The driving distance from Skopje, Macedonia to Thessaloniki, Greece is 239 km.
The driving distance from Skopje, Macedonia to Durres, Albania is 320 km

TA-DA!!!!

Got any other locations you want to measure the distance to?????

[Vangelovski]

fyrOM,

It think its you that is purposely ignoring the evidence (IA, negotiations, thousands of DPMNE statements, previously accepted name changes, etc, etc) and clinging to some article about alternate routes. There have been many other articles on alternate routes, which have said nothing about "embargoes" but focused on distance and costs. I guess they don't fit your agenda.

The driving distance from Skopje to Solun is just one of many "driving distances" from Macedonia to Solun. Other factors include the distance from Solun to various international markets. Or the cost of using port facilities in Solun.

I was suggesting you get paid by the post like Prolet - from DPMNE to make up idiotic stories. Your "calibre" could be improved if you stopped taking acid and smoking bongs prior to posting.