International Court of Justice - Macedonia and Greece

[Vangelovski]

In answer to your question of 'why', Daskale, I would have to respond with one of either three things:

1) Our government is led by traitors.

2) Our government is led by weaklings.

3) Our government is stupid.

Could be a combination of all three.

Oh yeah, some morons claim that our government has a "master plan".

If you look at the individuals who make up our Government, you can clearly see most are traitors, some are morally weak and nearly all are stupid. Yet their lapdogs believe this collective bunch as a "master plan". This "master plan" was supposedly put in place back in 1991. But lets look at some the key figures involved:

1. Gligorov (dithering old fool, Yugoslav nostalgic)
2. Crvenkovski (traitor, opportunist)
3. Maleski (traitor, Yugoslav, independece over his dead body)
4. Frckovski (traitor)
5. Buckovski (traitor, opportunist)
6. Georgievski (traitor, Bugaroman)
7. Gruevski (just plain stupid)
8. Milososki (Bugaroman)

Between these idiots, how could one possibly believe they have a "master plan"? Each and everyone of them has an anti-Macedonian agenda.

[Volk]

Good question Duskalot, I have asked it many times also, mostly its a side steped question where people just say "they are just stupid", or "they want to enforce FYROM"- my response to that has always been, how can they enforce fyrom if the ICJ cannot push Macedonia into EU or NATO regardless of a victory... This is always ignored because its not an easy question.

The government has mostly hid its strategy regarding the name issue (if it even has one), the double name forumula is not spoken about anymore...

So to answer your question as to why Macedonia has taken greece to the ICJ I'll give you several possible answers:

- put pressure on greece to make actual progress in the name talks (which may or may not include degrading 'settlements' like RM- skopje

- put pressure on greece to accept Macedonian ethnicity in return for a compromised name like that one above

- show the IC that Macedonia has done everything in its power to find a solution (including RM- Skopje) and that it cannot do anymore- thus put pressure on greece again- or give an excuse to withdraw from the talks (not that it needs one)

- give us leverage to take the despite to the UN general assembly (by showing greece is the unvilling partner)

- domestic political point scoring, by showing the goverment is actually fighting for EU and NATO membership

Or a combination of these...

[Vangelovski]

Good question Duskalot, I have asked it many times also, mostly its a side steped question where people just say "they are just stupid", or "they want to enforce FYROM"- my response to that has always been, how can they enforce fyrom if the ICJ cannot push Macedonia into EU or NATO regardless of a victory... This is always ignored because its not an easy question.

This question of yours has been addressed, even though it is a stupid one. There is no moral victory, as you attempt to describe it, to be won at the ICJ. There is no evidence that the Macedonian Government is even attempting to achieve what you claim it is. There is no 'master plan'. There is no evidence of a 'master plan'.

Take another look at the list of people who have been in power over the past 20 years and it becomes quite clear what their intentions are, and have been, all along. It also becomes quite clear what the intentions of their lapdogs (such as yourself) are.

Further, if you think the government has hidden its "strategy", then you obviously have not been following the events over the past two decades, you cannot comprehend what is happening around you or you are shamelessly attempting to gloss over the outright treason and stupidity that has been undertaken in our name.

[Volk]

This question of yours has been addressed, even though it is a stupid one.

Show me idiot, show me what you have adressed. Your a self proclaimed expert in determining who is stupid. You cannot use argument or even adressed any of my points, every one is stupid exept Vangelovski and those who may agree with him that everyone is stupid.

Your like a worm seeking to stopp proper discussion. Do not reply to my posts ever again, none of them are ever directed at your narcissistic stupidity.

[Vangelovski]

Show me idiot, show me what you have adressed. Your a self proclaimed expert in determining who is stupid. You cannot use argument or even adressed any of my points, every one is stupid exept Vangelovski and those who may agree with him that everyone is stupid.

Your like a worm seeking to stopp proper discussion. Do not reply to my posts ever again, none of them are ever directed at your narcissistic stupidity.

My previous post in itself addresses your stupid question.

[George S.]

If macedonia wins in the ICJ why are they still negotiating on the name.Why not pull out of the name negotiations all together.

[Daskalot]

It is good to see that my simple question has triggered so many responses, but the right answer to my question was given by Makedonche.

or more precisely, that Greece blocked Macedonia from entering NATO as "FYROM".

or to be exact as quoted from the ICJ thread, from the application to the ICJ:

The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia asserts in its Application that the Respondent violated its rights under the Interim Accord by objecting, in April 2008, to its application to join the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO). The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia contends, in particular, that Greece “veto[ed]” its application to join NATO because Greece desires “to resolve the difference between the Parties concerning the constitutional name of the Applicant as an essential precondition” for such membership.

So now let me ask WHY did Greece block Macedonia from entering NATO?

WHY?

Lets try and stick to the question WHY and not divert the topic, please.

I will post my question again because hence forth this is the question that needs an answer;

So now let me ask WHY did Greece block Macedonia from entering NATO?

WHY?

[Daskalot]

Please give as many possible reasons to WHY Greece did act in this way.

[Voltron]

Please give as many possible reasons to WHY Greece did act in this way.

If you dont mind me giving you our point of view, I would simply say because we didnt see good faith being shown in the negotiations.

[Currency Trader]

It is good to see that my simple question has triggered so many responses, but the right answer to my question was given by Makedonche.


or to be exact as quoted from the ICJ thread, from the application to the ICJ:


So now let me ask WHY did Greece block Macedonia from entering NATO?

WHY?

Lets try and stick to the question WHY and not divert the topic, please.

I will post my question again because hence forth this is the question that needs an answer;

So now let me ask WHY did Greece block Macedonia from entering NATO?

WHY?

NATO medlemskapet kanske anses vara det mest värdefulla pris för länder som är under utveckling. Grekland inser att deras förhandlingskraft i frågan om namnet skulle reduceras om Makedonien fick medlemskapet, oavsett under vilket namn. För Makedonien skulle det bli business as usual och man skulle fortsätta sina diplomatiska kontakter under sitt konstitutionella namn. Grekland vet att Makedonien skulle inte ens besvära sig med att lösa dispyten då Makedonien fått det dom velat ha. Den som tidigare var i underläge rent förhandllingsmässigt har nu plötsligt hamnat i överläge.

För Grekland handlar det om utpressning, det är det dom sysslar med mot sina grannländer, exemplevis Turkiet (Cypernfrågan).


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[Daskalot]

NATO medlemskapet kanske anses vara det mest värdefulla pris för länder som är under utveckling. Grekland inser att deras förhandlingskraft i frågan om namnet skulle reduceras om Makedonien fick medlemskapet, oavsett under vilket namn. För Makedonien skulle det bli business as usual och man skulle fortsätta sina diplomatiska kontakter under sitt konstitutionella namn. Grekland vet att Makedonien skulle inte ens besvära sig med att lösa dispyten då Makedonien fått det dom velat ha. Den som tidigare var i underläge rent förhandllingsmässigt har nu plötsligt hamnat i överläge.

För Grekland handlar det om utpressning, det är det dom sysslar med mot sina grannländer, exemplevis Turkiet (Cypernfrågan).


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Please translate the above post of yours into English Currency Trader.

[Daskalot]

If you dont mind me giving you our point of view, I would simply say because we didnt see good faith being shown in the negotiations.

I do not mind Voltron.
So that is the only reason, nothing else?

[Currency Trader]

If you dont mind me giving you our point of view, I would simply say because we didnt see good faith being shown in the negotiations.

Negative - Greece is in the business of extortion against its neighbouring countries. They know full well that you need something that the other party wants in order to extort something out of the other party - If Macedonia were to enter NATO, under any kind of name, Greece would loose the biggest leverage they ever had on Macedonia.

The underdog would suddenly dictate when and how a settlement would take place. So far, that stick has belonged to Greece.

You don't need to be a rocket-scientist. Nice try.



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[Voltron]

Thats pretty much it. Greece just want to solve the issue and be done with it.
Thats what we signed up to.

[Voltron]

Negative - Greece is in the business of extortion against its neighbouring countries. They know full well that you need something that the other party wants in order to extort something out of the other party - If Macedonia were to enter NATO, under any kind of name, Greece would loose the biggest leverage they ever had on Macedonia.

The underdog would suddenly dictate when and how a settlement would take place. So far, that stick has belonged to Greece.

You don't need to be a rocket-scientist. Nice try.
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I dont disagree with you, but you have to understand a written agreement was made. Of course leverage will be used. Isnt this the purpose of a Veto ?