International Court of Justice - Macedonia and Greece

[Volk]

Demonstrate how I have retreated from anything

You seem to be confused what to write, I dont know the difference between the FA and IA? Prove it, show me a post that proves this

I am really very tired of your manipulations, trying to put words and beliefs in my mouth. That's all your arguments are based on, manipulations and deceptions.

Prove your statements or close your mouth

But you have been unable to prove any of them, each and every time I challenge your BS, which only proves what deceiver you are.

[Volk]

Volk
I understand your opinion and confirmed that previously, my reference to Vangelovski was merely pointing out that he makes a strong argument that we are all not too far from agreeing with. My view is that if we look at things sequentially in both occurance and in terms of planning then we are closer to agreement between us, by virtue of getting rid of the FA & IA as priorities, before these agreements erode what's left of our sovreignity. Yes?

No one has denied they both need to be corrected. The argument lies about the best way to do this, the best way to address the challenges that will arise from their dissolved. Vangelovski's argument is that there will be no fallout what so ever, except the newly admitted 'inevitable war' which we should not prepare for.

[Soldier of Macedon]

If this is what you think, why do you continue to support Gruevski at every turn? What will it take until people like yourself finally wake up to the reality of the situation?

Who are the 'VMRO Zadranicen Komitet in Australia', an arm of DPNE? What do they do, and what is their purpose?

Prolet, your answer was irrelevant to the questions I posed above. Are you prepared to answer them, or not?

[Soldier of Macedon]

GStojanov,

Instead of how and why Greece will be defeated at the ICJ, can you explain what Macedonia will win by this supposed 'victory'? I can see it right now, Macedonians can say "look, we took Greece to the ICJ for not calling us fyrom, and we won". Who really wins?

[makedonche]

No one has denied they both need to be corrected. The argument lies about the best way to do this, the best way to address the challenges that will arise from their dissolved. Vangelovski's argument is that there will be no fallout what so ever, except the newly admitted 'inevitable war' which we should not prepare for.

Volk
OK, we can sit here and chuck shit at each other till the cows come home or we can put forward proposals about what is the best way to "address the challenges" and prepare a plan to deal with them.
This may be covering old ground but I think it's worthwhile listing these challenges in order of importance and priority, what do you think the most important/highest priority challenge will be?

[George S.]

so volk what do you think the macedonian govt to do what is your plan of action.Or are you happy with the status quo with the govt.You want it to keep doing what it's doing at present.

[Risto the Great]

I think Volk sometimes makes some reasonable points.
I also believe his sense of ideology is developing or maturing and we may well see everything eye to eye one day. However, he is descending into a trap where the attacks are nothing more than personality derived.

Of course Macedonia needs to be prepared for any consequence of proposed actions. But surely 1 - 20 years is enough to suggest that there is no useful agenda nor "preparation" and that the direction is backwards not forwards for Macedonia.

If a revolution of the mind existed in Macedonia. This entire problem would be solved with the click of a finger. Belgium is evidence enough that the path the EU has chosen for Macedonia is unsustainable. Especially when the population numbers have been so manipulated and the ethnic Albanians still represent nothing more than a minority deserving of (best practise) rights in Macedonia.

Volk, seriously, you reject the FA & IA. Your particular axe to grind somehow relates to the timing of the rejections and the preparations related thereto. This kind of rubbish has been going on with nudges and winks in Macedonia for the last 15 years and only the politicians can make a difference. They are too busy finding income streams to care.

If you reject them .... shout it from the rooftops and make your family back home reject it. Don't hush everyone in the corner and plan for the next century. It will be too late.

If some fear the consequences of rejecting the FA & IA, then what hope is there for them when they don't understand the consequences of accepting the IA and FA.

I am sorry to say it, Macedonians in Macedonia have yet to fight for what they have (certainly in the last 100 years). I think a struggle hardens one's resolve. There has been no struggle ... yet.

[Vangelovski]

the only plan of action I can call for is Macedonia to be prepared to spill blood to defend itself and not pray to the higher 'gods' (EU & NATO) for its salvation.

Above is Volk’s “new” position. This is where he retreated (temporarily) from his previous apocalyptic scaremongering. Apparently there is only ONE plan of action for him now...

Demonstrate how I have retreated from anything

Below are a whole bunch of idiotic “scenarios” that Volk promoted previously:

are you trying to convince me and the readers here that if Macedonia withdrew from the name talks & declared the 'framework agreement' null and void simultaneously, there would not be any consequences to Macedonia besides the utopia your trying to imply?

There are many scenarios that could arise, but the least likely one is the utopic Macedonian society you are dreaming of.

Do mean to tell me the international community aka our overlords, would accept such a move, does Macedonia have the military industry (we do not even manufacture our own bullets anymore) to deal with a conflict if there was a arms embargo imposed (like in 2001)?

Can we break the greek-albanian alliance (this is the two fronts), what will the bulgars do in such case...

Or is analyzing possible scenarios (that have all happened before) 'scaremongering' and unrealistic?, whilst your completely blind and non existent outlook is the light? Give me a fucking break and open your eyes.

Facts:
- Majority of the population supports EU and NATO membership
- The albanians are waiting for the right time to break away
- EU and NATO ( which now surrounds Macedonia ) fully backs greece against us.

Based on these facts outlined we need an approach (that achieves our goals) that covers all threats, because otherwise your just pissing in the wind without as little as a thought.

Further attempt at fantastical claims:

Its very easy to scream do this and do that when there is no planning in place to deal with consequences.

Its a Pandora's box that needs to be opened, but before it's opened we need strategies in place to deal with all scenarios.

Here’s a complete contradiction:

The process should commence immediately, just not as a simultaneous move as you have so ignorantly called for.

More references to “scenarios”, “factors”, chess games and “somethings”

You call for a simultaneous and immediate abandonment of the 'name negotiations' AND 'framework agreement' whilst completely refusing to analyze ANY follow on effects what so ever.

so who are you calling "weak mentally"? and for what? for calling for a step by step approach that achieves the same goals you have outlines, whilst addresses and counters all possible scenarios. Maybe you need to learn to play chess and not just mindlessly wave a sword in the air.

Something will happen, but we dont know...
The albanians are used as a trojan horse, all they need is a green light and they will pick up arms again. If we are ready to handle them only the government knows.

LOL!
There are many factors that need to be taken into account SOM, I've outlined them before on more than one occasion they include: IC response, EU response, Macedonian supply channels, military industry, ethnic minorities, regional powers ect... these need to be balanced to the outcome is positive for Macedonia.

by closing the door on EU and NATO membership (which the majority of all citizens want):

- no more EU funding
- rise in ethnic tensions
- fall of government party

Macedonia should be ready for any economic and military embargos like it experienced inthe 90s. This means either full or partial self sufficiency for arms and energy. Embargos or threat of embargos can be used as levarage as they were before.

Has Macedonia overcome this threat?

Here’s Volk claiming we need EU funds – which actually fund the implementation of the FA and related programs

Are you now claiming Macedonia does not receive any EU money?

According to this report http://www.analyticamk.org/files/ReportNo34.pdf 58 million Euros where allocated to Macedonia in 2007.

Not a small amount for us. If we can afford to lose that kind of funding I could not say, only the ministry of Finance could.

This seems to be a regional issue, one which Macedonia is not immune to. Albanian extremism comes from Kosovo and was imported here. Without going at the source, how can we control it here?

If Macedonia is prapared to military confront the rebellious albanians
it needs a military industry. Macedonia is surrounded by NATO members and an embargo like last time would mean zero military capabilities very quickly.

NATO. Until we are self sufficient in energy and weapons we can be pressured very easily.

Economically (as much as possible- self sufficiency) and we need energy. The most important is the Macedonian mentality to protect their state which I believe can be induced by the right leadership.

[Soldier of Macedon]

I am sorry to say it, Macedonians in Macedonia have yet to fight for what they have (certainly in the last 100 years). I think a struggle hardens one's resolve. There has been no struggle ... yet.

To be fair, Macedonians did fight during WWII and the 'Greek' civil war. However, you make a strong point. In this world, freedom is a privilege that cannot be truly appreciated unless it has been fought for and won.

[George S.]

i don't know how to say it when macedonia split up from yugoslavia everyone said that hardly a shot was fired.Macedonians have never fought for their existence ,their identity.Alexander fought his enemies with tactics & feats of strength where he was outnumbered 10 to one.I think macedonia's day to fight may come one day & it will be a fight to the death.

[Phoenix]

Lets assume Macedonia has a 'victory' at the ICJ and the Court rules that greece has broken the conditions of the Interim Accord.

I believe that the ICJ has no real power to enforce any of its rulings, therefor greece can still veto Macedonia at NATO, the EU and anywhere else they have a vote over Macedonian membership.

My question is if this is the case, will the Macedonian leadership have the balls to finally walk away from the futility of the UN sponsored talks...?

[Risto the Great]

Phoenix, there is no need to guess, Macedonia already knows the answer to that question. A win in the court case will do nothing to assist with EU/NATO membership (as wasteful as the memberships are). As a consequence, I am sure they will not walk away from anything.

[Vangelovski]

Lets assume Macedonia has a 'victory' at the ICJ and the Court rules that greece has broken the conditions of the Interim Accord.

I believe that the ICJ has no real power to enforce any of its rulings, therefor greece can still veto Macedonia at NATO, the EU and anywhere else they have a vote over Macedonian membership.

My question is if this is the case, will the Macedonian leadership have the balls to finally walk away from the futility of the UN sponsored talks...?

If the Macedonian vassal government was going to end the negotiations, they would have done it without the ICJ case.

[Phoenix]

If the Macedonian vassal government was going to end the negotiations, they would have done it without the ICJ case.

TV, surely the ICJ ruling (if favourable) will be the final straw...surely

[Vangelovski]

TV, surely the ICJ ruling (if favourable) will be the final straw...surely

We need to look at the underlying reasons as to why they are negotiating. They're negotiating because they are vassals and as such they hope they will gain personally by doing something they think their vassal masters want them to do.

The ICJ case diverts from their personal career interests, but is nothing more than a brain fart at best and a cheap stunt to gain DPMNE some "patriotic credibility" at worst. Pulling out of the negotiations for these vassal politicians would be 'career suicide'. Many of these idiots think the "west" actually cares whether they negotiate or not and that by negotiating they think they may be given plush EU/NATO careers and be accepted by their "peers" (read political masters).