Financial Crisis in Greece

[Spartan]

What does that mean? They're not ethnic Greeks?

Personally, I doubt many of them are.

Try and talk sense to him as a fellow Greek, so I wouldn't have had to ban him.

So its my fault Sportster was banned because I didnt 'straighten him out' ? Why does the onus for this fall on me?

Both of you did the same to each other, both of you gained people and lost territories. What argument would a Greek have against the Macedonians that can be considered even remotely valid with regard to your comparison? I will tell you, none.

I disagree.
I come from a royalist background.
The royalists did not support Venizelos, and the megali idea.
The Turk came to our lands, and was dealt with appropriately imo.
Just like the Prosfiges and Greeks came to your lands.
I think its quite similar, although the outcome of either conflicts is different.

No, but I would have expected that you would reciprocate the support I have lended you, since you've been here. I apologise for making the wrong assumption.

If someone attacked you personally, or your charachter, I would have no problem stepping up.
If someone comes on and attacks your ethnos (like mine is constantly attacked here), I feel you are more than capable of defending your position .

Who asked you to enjoy it?

Nobody

Have you provided anything to counter the claims of the now countless sources referring to the populations in Greece as Albanians and Vlachs?

No

If it doesn't sit well with you, why haven't you carried out some research and counter-claimed with contemporary sources from the 19th century?

Because I dont care.
Im not looking for pure bloodlines, or trying to prove/disprove them.
I have my opinion on the matter, and thats all.

At least you're referred to by the name of your people, and you're accepted. Such a simple courtesy is unheard of for a Macedonian on a Greek forum, why would I waste my time when I already know there is no chance of acceptance on their behalf?

Thats your perrogative

As soon as I say I am Macedonian they're all foaming at the mouth like some psycho racists.

Thats their problem
Why should we care what they think?

Perhaps you don't care for the way Greeks are negatively perceived by Macedonians when idiots like him come here.

To be honest, no, I dont.
You know me by now, and surely you realize my 'city-state' mentality.

Do you have evidence of Alexander being a 'homo'? Are there any contemporary sources from his time, or near-contemporaries that state such a thing? Please share it, because if you're right, then you're right, and nobody can argue against that.

Just what Ive heard...no real evidence.
Homosexuality wasnt percieved as 'evil' in those times, and i would assume many took art in it regardless where they came from.
Still, I dont care to google such a thing in order to insult a Macedonian.

I take that back, inappropriate on my behalf.

No worries mate.

Are you a man of integrity?

I consider myself one, yes.

Will you call me Macedonian in front of your relatives and friends in Greece?

Without a doubt.

[Spartan]

All jokes aside, Spartan ... if you don't regard the northerners as your kinsmen, then they could quite possibly be anything. Which includes Vlachs, Albanians, Prosfigi and Macedonians.

Fully agree Risto.
All of us could possibly be anything (within reason of course).

[I of Macedon]

The E.U.'s Dangerous Game

The E.U.'s Dangerous Game
By MARK WEISBROT
Published: May 12, 2010

The agreement by the European Union and the International Monetary Fund to provide up to $960 billion of support to the Continent’s weaker economies, as well as to financial markets, has appeared to calm investors worldwide, for the moment.

But this does not resolve the underlying problem, even in the short run.

The problem is one of irrational economic policy. The Greek government has reached an agreement with the E.U. authorities (which include the European Commission and the European Central Bank), and the I.M.F. that will make the current economic problems even worse.

This is known to economists, including the ones at the E.U. and I.M.F. who negotiated the agreement. The projections show that if their program “works,” Greece’s debt will rise from 115 percent of gross domestic product today to 149 percent in 2013. This means that in less than three years, and most likely sooner, Greece will be facing the same crisis that it faces today.

Furthermore, the Greek Finance Ministry now projects a decline of 4 percent in G.D.P. this year, down from less than 1 percent last year. However that projection is likely to prove overly optimistic. In other words, the Greek people will go through a lot of suffering, their economy will shrink and their debt burden will grow, and then they will very likely face the same choice of debt rescheduling, restructuring, or default — and/or leaving the Euro.

There are lessons to be learned from this debacle. First, no government should sign an agreement that guarantees an open-ended recession, and leaves it to the world economy to eventually pull them out of it. This process of “internal devaluation” — whereby unemployment is deliberately driven to high levels in order to drive down wages and prices while keeping the nominal exchange rate fixed — is not only unjust, it is unviable. This is even more true for Greece, given its initial debt burden.

The tens of thousands of Greeks in the streets have it right, and the E.U. economists have it wrong. You cannot shrink your way out of recession; you have to grow your way out, as the United States is doing (albeit too slowly).

If the E.U. and the I.M.F. will not offer a growth option to Greece, the country would be better off leaving the Euro and renegotiating its debt.

Argentina tried the “internal devaluation” strategy from mid-1998 to the end of 2001, suffering through a depression that pushed half the country into poverty. It then dropped its peg to the dollar and defaulted on its debt. The economy shrank for just one more quarter and then had a robust recovery, growing 63 percent over the next six years.

(By contrast, the “internal devaluation” process promises not only indefinite recession, but a long, very slow recovery if it “works” — as we can see from the I.M.F.’s projections for Latvia and Estonia. Both of these countries are projected to take 8 or 9 years to reach their pre-recession levels of output.)

The E.U. authorities sent markets crashing last Thursday by saying that they had not discussed using “quantitative easing” (i.e., the creation of money, as the U.S. Federal Reserve has done to the tune of $1.5 trillion in the last couple of years) to help resolve the situation.

E.U. officials also made statements that more deficit reduction is needed by countries that are still in recession or barely recovering. The new agreement reached over the weekend partially reverses these statements, but not enough.

The pundits are quick to blame Greece and the other weaker European economies — Portugal, Italy, Ireland and Spain — for their problems. Although, like most of the world, these countries did have asset bubbles and other excesses during the boom years, they didn’t cause the world recession that sent their deficits skyrocketing.

Most importantly, the real problem now is that the E.U. and the I.M.F. are still offering them the medieval medicine of bleeding the patient. Until that changes, expect a lot more trouble ahead.

Mark Weisbrot is co-director of the Center for Economic and Policy Research, in Washington.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/13/opinion/13iht-edweisbrot.html

[Soldier of Macedon]

So its my fault Sportster was banned because I didnt 'straighten him out' ? Why does the onus for this fall on me?

Did I say it was your fault that he was banned? No. Could you have tried to talk sense into him? Yes. Did you? No. Did I ban him because he is Greek? No. Did I ban him because he was a senseless moron? Yes. They're the facts, let's stick to them.

I come from a royalist background.

Who you support is irrelevant, party politics isn't the issue here, what has happened between your states and peoples is.

The Turk came to our lands, and was dealt with appropriately imo.
Just like the Prosfiges and Greeks came to your lands.

The Turks came to our land too. Your comparisons are way off, and how you can compare the Ottoman invasion to the dumping of refugees in Macedonia is puzzling.

I think its quite similar, although the outcome of either conflicts is different.

What is similar about it? What parallels do you draw between a refugee and an Ottoman soldier? What have Macedonians done to Greeks that is similar to what Greeks and Turks have done to each other and to Macedonians?

If someone attacked you personally, or your charachter, I would have no problem stepping up.
If someone comes on and attacks your ethnos (like mine is constantly attacked here), I feel you are more than capable of defending your position .

I appreciate it but I have no problem defending my character or identity, you're missing the point, again. Don't concern yourself with it too much, I won't be making the same assumption, I consider that my mistake.

No.

Yet you complain when the claims are made. Why bother, if, as you say, you don't care?

Im not looking for pure bloodlines, or trying to prove/disprove them.

Who mentioned pure bloodlines? Is there something wrong with exploring the truth?

Thats your perrogative

It would have been yours too had the number of Macedonian racists been as high as Greek racists. But they're nowhere near it.

Thats their problem

That's why I don't go there.

Why should we care what they think?

When people are being racist towards my people, I do care. Do I care for the people making the comments? I couldn't care less.

Just what Ive heard...no real evidence.

So you're wrong in your comparison with Bill, who did have evidence.

[Spartan]

Did I say it was your fault that he was banned? No. Could you have tried to talk sense into him? Yes. Did you? No. Did I ban him because he is Greek? No. Did I ban him because he was a senseless moron? Yes. They're the facts, let's stick to them.

Sure, and the fact is I have no obligation to straighten anyone out on someone elses behalf.

Who you support is irrelevant, party politics isn't the issue here, what has happened between your states and peoples is.

I have no complaints about how my state has treated my people, or invaders.
I do not agree with the Megali idea, and believe it was a mistake.

The Turks came to our land too. Your comparisons are way off, and how you can compare the Ottoman invasion to the dumping of refugees in Macedonia is puzzling.

Its puzzling because you have misunderstood me, and I should have been clearer.
My sincerest apologies.
I meant to compare our situation to your situation in 1913.

What is similar about it?

Both our lands were invaded.

What parallels do you draw between a refugee and an Ottoman soldier?

None

What have Macedonians done to Greeks that is similar to what Greeks and Turks have done to each other and to Macedonians?

Nothing that I know of, although Im pretty sure that during war times between Macedonians and Greeks, or Macedonians and Turks, that the Macedonians were fighting back as well.

I have no problem defending my character or identity, you're missing the point, again. Don't concern yourself with it too much, I won't be making the same assumption again.

Cool...whatever floats your boat amigo.

Yet you complain when the claims are made. Why bother, if, as you say, you don't care?

I didnt complain.
Just said I will not interject in favour of people who consider me to be something different than what I consider myself.

Who mentioned pure bloodlines?

I did.

Is there something wrong with exploring the truth?

No

It would have been yours too had the number of Macedonian racists been as high as Greek racists. But they're nowhere near it.

Pissing contest.

That's why I don't go there.

ok

When people are being racist towards my people, I do care. Do I care for the people making the comments? I couldn't care less.

I agree

So you're wrong in your comparison with Bill, who did have evidence.

Like I said, im not saying Bill was wrong.
I just dont care to look up homosexual tendencies of ancient people with intent of using it as an insult against their modern counterparts because I was losing an argument.
Ill leave that to Bill..

[Soldier of Macedon]

Nothing that I know of, although Im pretty sure that during war times between Macedonians and Greeks, or Macedonians and Turks, that the Macedonians were fighting back as well.

Yeah ok, and during times of no war, the Greeks swapped napalm for castor oil and forced oaths to 'Hellenism'. Great comparisons.

I did.

Do you have an obsession with pure bloodlines? If not, why mention it?

Pissing contest.

What are you talking about? Are you implying that as much Macedonians are racist towards Greeks, as Greeks are towards Macedonians? Declare your thoughts and stop playing games with your one-liners, amigo.

[Onur]

The Turk came to our lands, and was dealt with appropriately imo.
Just like the Prosfiges and Greeks came to your lands.
I think its quite similar, although the outcome of either conflicts is different....

Its puzzling because you have misunderstood me, and I should have been clearer.
My sincerest apologies.
I meant to compare our situation to your situation in 1913.

Both our lands were invaded.
.

Spartan, you are doing wrong comparisons again.

The people you call as "invaders", the ones you "dealt with appropriately" was living in your current country since 14th century, maybe even earlier, who knows? Dont you think that these people, you refer as "invaders" probably living in current Greece even earlier than %70 of your country`s current population??? Then who are the invaders and who has been dealt appropriately now????

Also, you forgot that you also send Cretan Greek Muslims(maybe more Greek than Papandreu, Pangalos and you) to Turkey as well cuz they were "invaders" according to your politicians.


So, there is no relation whatsoever between Turkish empire invading Greece at 14th century and Greeks invading Macedonia at 1913, about 520 years laters. You cant compare those.

You said that you didn't get your education in Greece but I am telling you again, get over with the Turks and with their invasion anymore. It was more than 600+ years ago.

[Spartan]

Yeah ok, and during times of no war, the Greeks swapped napalm for castor oil and forced oaths to 'Hellenism'. Great comparisons.

Horrible things, i agree.
What do you want me to do about it?
Ive got my own problems.
If you dont like something, fight against it.

Do you have an obsession with pure bloodlines?

No

If not, why mention it?

My apologies.
I wont bring it up again.

What are you talking about? Are you implying that as much Macedonians are racist towards Greeks, as Greeks are towards Macedonians?

How do you measure such a thing?
I dont know, dont care.
All I can say for certain is I am not racist against Macedonians.

Declare your thoughts and stop playing games with your one-liners, amigo.

No games, just my honest opinions.

[Spartan]

The people you call as "invaders", the ones you "dealt with appropriately" was living in your current country since 14th century, maybe even earlier, who knows?

II think you mean 15th century, but whatever.
Your point?

Dont you think that these people, you refer as "invaders" probably living in current Greece even earlier than %70 of your country`s current population???

No clue.
All I know is anyone with a Turkish or Albanian conciousness ceased to exist where I come from in the early 19th century.

Then who are the invaders and who has been dealt appropriately now????

The ottomans were the invaders, and those loyal to them in the Morea were 'dealt' with. Simple, no?

Also, you forgot that you also send Cretan Greek Muslims(maybe more Greek than Papandreu, Pangalos and you) to Turkey as well cuz they were "invaders" according to your politicians.

No.
They sided with the invaders.

So, there is no relation whatsoever between Turkish empire invading Greece at 14th century and Greeks invading Macedonia at 1913, about 520 years laters. You cant compare those.

They are both invasions. Simple.

You said that you didn't get your education in Greece but I am telling you again, get over with the Turks and with their invasion anymore. It was more than 600+ years ago.

Thank - you for the advice.

[Bill77]

Like I said, im not saying Bill was wrong.

Never am But all credit must go to MTO for my education.

I just dont care to look up homosexual tendencies of ancient people with intent of using it as an insult against their modern counterparts because I was losing an argument.
Ill leave that to Bill..

Do i sence again you are loosing your thick skin???? Hey, all i did was suply history about the Spartan Men.
just like you said, Homosexuality wasnt percieved as 'evil' in those times. You forgot to mention Pedafilia was also rampant. Hmmmm is that something else Greeks gave to the world? Thank god in modern times the pedafilia perception has changed though.

Loosing an argument? A competitor can't also be a judge it just does not work. But i will tell you what is week, Comments such as "Don't tell me what to do" Now that is stuck for words.

And you can have the final say. Enjoy

[Spartan]

But all credit must go to MTO for my education.

Yes, this is very evident.
It is also evident they dont offer basic grammar and spelling lessons as a part of this education..... beyond the grade 4 level

Do i sence again you are loosing your thick skin????

No Bill, I wasnt aware skin could be 'loosed'...im checking now, and it seems pretty tight, so I think im ok in that department....thanks for asking though
not sure why you are 'sencing' that.

Loosing an argument?

I feel my arguments are pretty tight
Looking back, i dont see what would make you think i was 'loosing' them.

A competitor can't also be a judge it just does not work. But i will tell you what is week,

Bill, I already know what a week is...there are 4 of them every month!


oust malaka
Back to school with you!!!!

[Soldier of Macedon]

What do you want me to do about it?

Acknowledge it and move on, so move on.

How do you measure such a thing?

I see that you intend to keep this conversation going in circles by playing dumb, go to the websites of your racist kinsmen and measure it yourself. If we were even half as racist as your people, you wouldn't be here, amigo. Keep that in your head.

[Spartan]

Acknowledge it and move on, so move on.

Done.

If we were even half as racist as your people, you wouldn't be here, amigo. Keep that in your head.

Point taken.

[Bij]

aw, i feel the love around here

[Sovius]

So, local people didn't vaporize in Anatolia as Spartan and Greek history books claims and this DNA analysis is the proof but ofc god forbid if Greeks accept this, people understands that their "racially pure ancient Greek" idea is fake and they might start feeling closeness to their neighbors!!!

Very true. The educational system of the Republic of Hellas is locked in a downward spiral. We are what we learn. Contrived justifications for past wrongs have created what I can only describe as a collective sociopathic condition. It’s a case of the assimilation of one generation by those who came before them, who, themselves, never had a decent opportunity to learn anything other than what was printed on the page, systematic victimization. It’s pretty sad, really. The country is due for a period of reformation. Perhaps, the people their government has branded as Anarchists will be the ones that break the cycle. Perhaps, those who have had the benefit of learning in other countries can help spark that change.