Financial Crisis in Greece

[Spartan]

Compared to the Ethnic Albanians and Al qaeda Terrorists They are. They are more westernised than some European countries, again just my opinion.

Albanians are more of a criminal element in this context.
Definitely not a threat to EU security in a big way.
El Queda same thing.
The Turks are 100 times more of a threat to Eu than the Albanians and el quaeda combined then doubled!

"Turkey is a secular state with no official state religion; the Turkish Constitution provides for freedom of religion and conscience"

Bill, you made me spill and spit out coffee everywhere, lol.

But oh no, when there is something to hot to handle alone, its now Greek and EU airspace.

Well isnt it?
Hows it not?
Greece is in the EU, so our airspace is EU airspace.
No?

And don't forget, Greece equaly violates Turkish and Macedonian airspace. Its all games tit for tat.

Horseshit.
Dont know about Macedonia, but greece rarely goes into Turkish airspace. In the instance that they do, it is to chase their fighters(who have invaded our airspace) too far . The greek AF is set up to defend.
They have no buisiness flying into Turkish airspace, and would be at a big disadvantage if they did.

As for Macedonia, i have never heard nor read that greek AF violates your airspace. How ofrten does it happen?

Yes i have been to Greece and i live in a state that has the 3rd largest Greek comunity just after Athens and Thasoluniki. I am well aware how they think.

Please Bill. lets not compare diaspora communities thousands of miles away from the motherland. We all know that both our diasporas are way more fanatical and extreme in their views. You may be well aware how they think in Australlia, but not back home.

Let me remind you again of your post regarding our forefathers thoughts about the turks 100 years ago. Much water has passed under the bridge since.

I commend you for this attitude, yet it is one that i cannot share.
Greece, imo, has only 1 true enemy.
And it is til the end of time imo.

How would it look to the rest of the world if they were to Hear Greece is about to colaps and yet they are made to purchase more arms.

You tell me Bill?
What you explain above, is exactly whats happened.
I havent heard or read anyone voicing an opinion, or complaining.

And i did sugest eventualy they would have to pay for them some how.

Whoever bails them out will pay. (germany)

Possibly, but it will not be for the love of Greece or Fear of Turkey. Its to save the European Unions credability.

Part of it is definitely a fear of Turkey.
I dont doubt its for 'selfish' reasons either.
Regardless though, the Grekk military benefits.

But seriously, with all due respect Spartan, when i hear comments such as "Greece is strategicly important for Europe" with out any real evidance that the Turks are a threat to the rest of Europe

Evidence!?
Bill, just look at a map, and the last 500-600 years history in the region.
The evidence is there.

But i can't help but believe that Greeks have a self glorifying imagination if they seriously believe Europe depends on them and Greece is capable of keeping the Turks at bay.

Greece is the first line of defence in this scenario.
Bottom line.
The rest is all forum chatter.

If the Turks were so frowned upon and not wanted, then it was a bad move inviting them into Nato.

I am only discussing this from the point of Europe.
NATO is a whole other story.
Over half the countries in the EU would probably veto Turkey to gaining membership.
How would you explain this?

[Spartan]

Yeh, these bloody Germans. What the Natzis did is unforgivable. They are a threat to Europe.

lol
Can you elaborate?
How is germany a threat to Europe?? lol

[Bill77]

lol
Can you elaborate?
How is germany a threat to Europe?? lol

I promised that i will shut up, but i will reply only because you asked lol

It was a sarcastic comment. If we can judge todays Turks and still hold them accountable for what happened over 100 years ago, Then there is more of a reason why we should include todays Germany in the same Bracket, as a threat to Europe, considering the amount of damage they caused and it was much recent to than the Ottoman era. I think its unfair to compare both todays Nations with what happened back in History. At what point of time, can a Nation be forgiven and seperated from its inglorious past.


Since i'm yapping again, let me respond to this.

We are talking about the Balkans.
Dont kid yourself Bill.
In the Balkans, everyone hates their neighbours.
You guys often describe Macedonia being surrounded by four wolves.
Is this the mindset you mean?

Who is Kiding who here? Yes we are disapointed at some of our Neighbours. Where Greece wants to wear our skins as cloths amongst other racist slogans, hatred and xenophobia comments. Can you see the differance here Spartan? We are not talking about a few hooligans stating this at a soccer mach here. We are talking about a section of your military Defence and its not the first time, sometimes its done infront of foreign heads of State.

Let me elaborate a bit more this hatred with neighbours situation. ROM v Serbia, Good Relations. ROM v Albania some minor issues but No guns or Tanks needed at Borders facing each other. Both Governments interact on regulor basis in a freindly atmosphere. ROM v Bulgaria, Bulgaria recognise Macedonia. Relationship is fair but declining at best. Although we do describe Bulgaria as wolves. If they can stop interfering with our business, relations would be better. Greece, WOLVES who want to wear our skin as clothes. Who pray every Night us Macedonians, also Turks and Albanians disapear off the face of this earth, (they better not prey to hard, otherwise 90% of Greece Population will disapear ) Who also has aspirations not only on Macedonian land, sth Albania aswell. Who has major issues with Turks and Greece is to Europe what Isreal is to the Middle east, when it comes to Arms (i wander, why is that ?). The Bulgarian Greece relations, well its great theater. when will the day come when you can call them Vugari to there face again. I bet the waiting is killing Greece.

So since you like to bring up our description That a couple of our neighbours are wolves, Then we must be the sheep. So who is the agressor and who would be the victim here???

Bill, you made me spill and spit out coffee everywhere, lol

well you are lucky. I piss my pants when Greeks bring up wiki quotes, now thats embaresing. I need a respirator when they say Macedonia is Greek..... hang on i need some air i'll be back shortly.

Well isnt it?
Hows it not?
Greece is in the EU, so our airspace is EU airspace.
No?

I don't know, can you tell me? i don't know how to answer. The Greek arguments change often. Let me explain my confusion, If a Macedonia Passenger Plane flys over Greek airspace, Greeks can endanger the lives of these passengers and turn them back, for no ther reason than having Macedonia writen on the fuselage or tail. Now Greece would argue that its Greek airspace and Macedonia can not argue that it has the right as the airspace also belongs to the EU. Where if the Turks or any other unwanted craft enters Greek airspace, and Greece can not control it alone, lets play the "This is not just Greek airspace, EU has equal ownership" card.

so tell me, if it is also EU airspace, Macedonia being part of Europe. Can Macedonia fly its passenger planes with a Macedonian symbol or name writen on its fuselage or tail over European sky's?


My Quote: "And don't forget, Greece equaly violates Turkish and Macedonian airspace. Its all games tit for tat".

Your reply

Horseshit.
Dont know about Macedonia, but greece rarely goes into Turkish airspace. In the instance that they do, it is to chase their fighters(who have invaded our airspace) too far . The greek AF is set up to defend.
They have no buisiness flying into Turkish airspace, and would be at a big disadvantage if they did.

As for Macedonia, i have never heard nor read that greek AF violates your airspace. How ofrten does it happen?

Horseshit all i said was, just as the turks do, Greece also violates Turkish airspace. You call it horseshit, but then admit greece rarley does it. So it does (be it rarely) or does not. take a pick. You can check Youtube for videos of Greek Fighter planes getting shot down and intersepted over Turkish airspace. As for the Macedonia insident, it did happen, mabe someone else can confirm this or suply the evidance.


Oh.... one last thing, regarding the Horseshit wiki quote "Wiki "Turkey is a secular state with no official state religion; the Turkish Constitution provides for freedom of religion and conscience". If this is true, they would be less Barbarian than Greece, don't you think?

I ask again, if its true, would the Turks be less Barbarian than Greece? or lets look at it another way. Evan if its not true that there is freedom of religion and conscience in Turkey, how is Greece any diferant to Turkey when it comes to religious Freedom and conscientiousness?

[Phoenix]

Just in relation to the greek chaps "Four Wolves" comment earlier and not understanding its meaning...

One thing that sticks in my mind above all else after watching the, 'A Name is a Name' film recently was a simple line in that movie, I don't recall who made the comment but it was one of those can't see the forest for the trees moments...

The comment was that the ONLY people in the entire world who have a problem with Macedonia and the Macedonians are the 4 countries who took parts of Macedonia's territory and who continue to steal elements of its history and culture...hence the term the 'Four Wolves'...

[Prolet]

Some good points raised i agree

First of all both Turkey and Greece are senior Nato countries who have been in Nato for a good 40 years or so. Whats the point in joining Nato if its not for security and stability? Turkey is in more trouble fighting the PKK Terrorists, neighboring Iraq and Syria both countries that are high on America's terror list. Greece and Turkey are on the same side here, Nato is there to protect its members.

People are not realizing that Turkey controls the Entry to the Black sea, they can basically block off the Black Sea and 10 countries would be stuck, lets also not forget that Cari Grad/ Constantinopole is a holly place for all Orthodox Christians so the last thing any Orthodox country needs is bad relations with Turkey.

Spartan, Kemal Mustafa Ataturk is the man who brought Turkey much closer to Europe, if you ask the Arabic countries they will probably name Turkey as the least Islamic country because there its Illegal to mix religion with politics and education, there are laws in the Turkish Constitution written from the Ataturk era that are still valid and cannot be erased, when i was in Turkey i saw Photo Frames of Ataturk everywhere even at the airports he is like a god to them, they call him the father of Turkey.

[Bill77]

Spartan, Kemal Mustafa Ataturk is the man who brought Turkey much closer to Europe, if you ask the Arabic countries they will probably name Turkey as the least Islamic country because there its Illegal to mix religion with politics and education, there are laws in the Turkish Constitution written from the Ataturk era that are still valid and cannot be erased,

Is that a fact Prolet. Well oil-beef-Hooked (a scotsman would understand my last few word ) so the wiki quote was not Horseshit after all.

[Prolet]

Bill, Its Illegal for Women to wear head Scarfs in Parliament and University. The Current Government tried to overturn the ruling but they couldnt do it.

[Spartan]

If we can judge todays Turks and still hold them accountable for what happened over 100 years ago, Then there is more of a reason why we should include todays Germany in the same Bracket, as a threat to Europe, considering the amount of damage they caused and it was much recent to than the Ottoman era. I think its unfair to compare both todays Nations with what happened back in History. At what point of time, can a Nation be forgiven and seperated from its inglorious past.

Completely different scenarios.
The Nazis were in power for a short period of time....we are talking about 1 government and its policies.
The Turks have always been the enemy of the christian world throughout their entire history....not just a decade.
Not just as government policy either, but part of their 'culture' as a people( religion).
The Nazis should never be forgiven, and I personally would never forgive the turks.
The Nazis are long gone, so i see nothing wrong with the Germans of today. The turks are still turks.
You can stick up for them, admire them, whatever...it is your choice to do so.
I would die first.

Also, if this is how you see things Bill (you words) -

I think its unfair to compare both todays Nations with what happened back in History

Surely you have forgiven the Greeks for attrocities committed during the civil war by now?

Greece, WOLVES who want to wear our skin as clothes. Who pray every Night us Macedonians, also Turks and Albanians disapear off the face of this earth,

Where do you come up with this stuff bro? lol (Turks maybe)
You are grossly overestimating how important the Macedonia issue is to the average Greek citizen. They dont really care that much, trust me.
Especially down south.
The negotiations, agreements, developments surrounding this issue in Greece wouldnt even make it to the first 5 pages of the big newspapers. To say that the majority of Greeks want to skin their neighbours (kill them) is plain silly and 100% wrong.

Who pray every Night us Macedonians, also Turks and Albanians disapear off the face of this earth, (they better not prey to hard, otherwise 90% of Greece Population will disapear

Nice, very classy
Thank-you

well you are lucky. I piss my pants when Greeks bring up wiki quotes, now thats embaresing.

I dont find it funny that you quoted wiki Bill.
Im sure its correct in this instance, and that the quote you provided is the 'official' stance of the Turkish government/nation.
What I find funny is the content of the message.

If a Macedonia Passenger Plane flys over Greek airspace, Greeks can endanger the lives of these passengers and turn them back, for no ther reason than having Macedonia writen on the fuselage or tail. Now Greece would argue that its Greek airspace and Macedonia can not argue that it has the right as the airspace also belongs to the EU. Where if the Turks or any other unwanted craft enters Greek airspace, and Greece can not control it alone, lets play the "This is not just Greek airspace, EU has equal ownership" card.

Bill, you have missed the point here.
I am not talking about commercial/passenger flights, lol.
I doubt that would be much of a problem as these planes are unarmed.
I am talking about Turkish FIGHTER jets/bombers/warplanes flying into and violating Greek/EU airspace.
We shouldnt be concerned about this from our eternal enemy?
Wouldnt you?

Oh.... one last thing, regarding the Horseshit wiki quote "Wiki "Turkey is a secular state with no official state religion; the Turkish Constitution provides for freedom of religion and conscience". If this is true, they would be less Barbarian than Greece, don't you think?

Its not true Bill
Its the official stance, thats all.
Go try to be a Christian in Turkey, tell me how it goes for you.

how is Greece any diferant to Turkey when it comes to religious Freedom and conscientiousness?

You are free to practice any religion you want in Greece.
You can even build a mosque if you are so inclined.

[Prolet]

Spartan, In Greece there is not one mosque built, they built a temporary mosque for the 2004 Olympics then once it finished they knocked it down right away.

But lets not forget something else Spartan, that if we were to join Nato then Greece has to cover our airspace this is why they are forcing us to give up our Suhoi Planes. So you are saying that Turkey is violating your airspace when you are both Senior Nato countries basically the same army, do you think the average Macedonian Citizen can trust the Greek Army to cover our airspace yet they wont allow our domestic air line carrier to fly over Greek Airspace for international flights.

[Risto the Great]

In recent articles coming out of Germany, social and political frustration has been rising against the Greek politicians and people for their irresponsible spending, constant welfare requirements and little gratitude, stemming from arrogance, the foundation of which was built on fabrications- by the Germans.

Backed into a corner, Greek politicians are trying to juggle international pressure and dissatisfaction of their fabricated economic data, with the internal pressure of the frustrated, fabricated greek society. How have they responded? By trying to divert attention, attacking Germans for atrocities committed in WWII, labelling them as nazis.

The interesting thing about lies of Greek scale is that they have a tendency to come back and bite them. The frequency of this cycle is now high enough for the average Joe to notice. Just weeks after labelling today's Germany as Nazis and trying to exert some sort of national guilt on Germany, Greece's armed forces have been recorded chanting filthy racist nazi slogans against Macedonians and Albanians, only to be watched and later applauded by the officials present.

While this is all to interesting to watch, I can not help but wonder if Macedonian politicians and Macedonian activists in Germany will really take full advantage of this situation and assist the Germans in realising the cycles of modern greek hypocrisy. Can we Macedonians ensure that the conditions set on the welfare money modern Greece is about to receive is based on strict conditions involving the protection of minorities and the reverse of Greece's NeoNazi policy towards us?

I have no idea Coolski. We must not kid ourselves, Greece is not progressive and representative of the the "best of Europe". In fact, it embarrasses Europe all the time. Yet it is constantly given the sympathetic ear it does not deserve. I have no doubt it has lost some of its shine but genuinely wonder how that will manifest itself.

The EU has its claws even further in Greece now. We will have to wait and see what this really means. One way it might be seen to still be nice to Greece is by tolerating this name charade that Greece perpetuates whilst making them pay on a whole new level economically. In other words, it might actually be worse for us. A crazy world indeed.

[Spartan]

Spartan, In Greece there is not one mosque built, they built a temporary mosque for the 2004 Olympics then once it finished they knocked it down right away.

Sorry Prolet, but you are mistaken here.
Many mosques in Thrace and on the eastern islands where there are muslims.
You are thinking of Athens, but she will fall soon as well.
The last European major city without a mosque.
To bad really.
Oh well.

Welcome back Risto

[Spartan]

So you are saying that Turkey is violating your airspace when you are both Senior Nato countries basically the same army

Yes.
Regardless of what you explain above, some time ago a border was agreed upon by Turkey and Greece in the Aegean. If one nation wants to fly aircraft from their airforce into the other nations side of the border, they must request and be granted permission prior to doing so. Any other instance or situation is viewed as a 'violation'.

[Prolet]

Spartan, If Greece were to go to war against a non Nato country then Turkey's duty is to protect Greece. Lets not go so far, the Roman Empire occupied for 800 years. Bill makes a good comparison because the Nazis sent people to death camps,gas chambers made soap out of people. If the Turks were so bad then Greece wouldnt be a country today and it they would all be muslims wouldnt they?

Turkey just recently saved a Greek Ship from Somali Pirates, why do you hate them so much??

[Spartan]

Spartan, If Greece were to go to war against a non Nato country then Turkey's duty is to protect Greece.

This is true, and vice versa too.
However, I believe NATO is an outdated org.

Bill makes a good comparison because the Nazis sent people to death camps,gas chambers made soap out of people.

I think its a horrible comparison, and I explained why in a previous post.
The Nzis were a regime that fooled the German people and are now history. You can not throw all Germans into the nazi basket. Very few actually. The Turks were the scourge of eastern Europe for centuries.

If the Turks were so bad then Greece wouldnt be a country today and it they would all be muslims wouldnt they?

If it werent for the Turks, I believe the Greece would be a much larger country today. Dont forget, only the Peloponnese was freed initially. The rest of Greece came in intervals over the next 100 yrs onwards.

Turkey just recently saved a Greek Ship from Somali Pirates, why do you hate them so much??

Id rather die at the Somalis hands, then be saved by the Turk.
We from the Peloponnese have been bred to hate them.
They did unspeakable things to the people of the Morea.

[Mikail]

Quote:
Greece, WOLVES who want to wear our skin as clothes. Who pray every Night us Macedonians, also Turks and Albanians disapear off the face of this earth,
Where do you come up with this stuff bro? lol (Turks maybe)
You are grossly overestimating how important the Macedonia issue is to the average Greek citizen. They dont really care that much, trust me.
Especially down south.
The negotiations, agreements, developments surrounding this issue in Greece wouldnt even make it to the first 5 pages of the big newspapers. To say that the majority of Greeks want to skin their neighbours (kill them) is plain silly and 100% wrong.

Spartan, this was the chant by the recent military parade in Greece for your 25th March celebrations.

Greece is the only European country which openly supports Nazi style protests. The Greek government or media has never condemned such barbaric actions.