Financial Crisis in Greece

[Onur]

First of all, regarding the population exchange, I assume you mean the big one that happened 1922. Did you ever consider the fact that Greece was forced to exchange populations with Turkey due to our defeat in the previous war? Meaning that the exchange itself was not planned in order to increase the number of Greeks in Macedonia-rather, it was the territory itself that had the space needed to place in all the new arrivals, since both Thessaly and the Peloponnese were unable to support an extra 2 million people. These people would have certainly preferred to remain in Asia Minor, where they had lived since ancient times.
Can you see the analogy with the Macedonians? Almost every greek has some1 in the family who was expelled from asia minor and pontus in 1922. This was also not approved by them, who were the majority, and hence it wasnt legal.

This is what your state indoctrinates you but this is not the truth.

The population exchange has been the primary goal of the neo-hellenic nationalist corners since Greek state invaded Aegean Macedonia in 1912. Venizelos and his supporters was thinking about doing population exchange with Turkey during WW-1 too but they were postponing this because they also had aims for the Anatolia back then. This is attested by several speeches of Venizelos in Greek and British newspapers back then.

Greek state failed to invade Anatolia and returned to Greece in 19.05.1919 and about a week laters, Venizelos started planning to propose population exchange to Turkey because Megali Idea was over anymore. After their loss in anatolia, they had a country with 20% Turkish muslim population, close to million slavic speaking Macedonians and what not in their hands. Their frustration and urgent need to import Anatolian christian to there is clearly evident in Greek newspapers because Venizelos was speaking about it to the Greek press. Venizelos and his British masters enforced Turkey to accept population exchange during Lausanne peace conference and this was the first time Turkish side ever heard about it.

The population exchange was some kind of necessity for Greece because after the inclusion of Aegean Macedonia, Greece had less than 4 million population and 650.000 of them was Turks. So, 20% of Greek population was Turks back then.

On the other hand Turkey had 12 million population but only 1 million of them was christians, around 7-8%. Already about half of them was Turkish christians, speaking pure Turkish, not a word of Greek. ~400.000 of them was central Anatolian christians named Karamanlides and ~70.000 of them was Gagauz christian Turks.

I realise the population exchange was forced upon you, but I struggle with the idea that turnkish nationals of yesteryear would dictate how I should call myself when my lineage is proven as far as records can be found in Macedonia.

Stojacanec, did you ever read the history section of this forum? Didn't you see my posts from 2010 with book and newspaper quotes where Venizelos mentioning population exchange as early as WW-1 days and just a week after their loss in Anatolia?

Didn't you read the speeches of Greek clergy and Venizelos in late 1920s, saying that they would never be able to keep Macedonia inside Greece if they would not import one million Anatolian christians to there? As far as i remember, TrueMacedonian posted these quotes too.

How come you can believe the Greek propaganda like "population exchange enforced them by Turks" while it`s a fact that they used Anatolian christians to depopulate Macedonia and alter it`s demographics?

[vicsinad]

I think that vicsinad got the point of my post, and he managed to describe my thoughts far better than I did, really gj.


While there is no logical explanation behind these fears, they still exist, and especially during these times of weakness, our society becomes even more anxious about greece's survival. I didnt say all that to make Macedonians sympathize with us, but rather to explain our (paranoid in a sense) mentality regarding our neighbors in general.

No problem Eric, just how I see it.

Yes, in reality, today or in the near future Macedonia cannot do anything to Greece regarding territorial ambitions. First, because Macedonia is too weak economically and militarily; second, because that desire isn't there in the Macedonians within Greece (and if it is, no one's acting on it) nor in the Macedonian government. I think, as long as economic and living conditions don't deteriorate much more, there isn't much fertile ground for nationalistic-territorial movements by the Macedonians. Still, many Macedonians do believe that Macedonia should be reunited, regardless of that scenario's current feasibility. I do believe that, if the right conditions exist, certain Macedonians (from outside or inside Greece) would attempt some sort of autonomous or independence movement (peaceful or violent) in Greece. Though, the percentage of Macedonians who want reunification is, I believe, higher in the Diaspora than Macedonia or Greece, which should mean that the chances are even less. But, as we saw with Kosovo, much of the financial support for the UCK came from the Albanian Diaspora. Anything's possible.

I do think Greece's fears are based on probably one of the least likely scenarios and cannot possibly justify its behavior toward Macedonia, but they are not completely unfounded.

[Stojacanec]

I think that vicsinad got the point of my post, and he managed to describe my thoughts far better than I did, really gj.

About the victims who are still alive, I already stated that they must be protected and recognized, and regarding the people who were ousted during the civil war, I also agree that they must be allowed entrance back into the country and receive compensation(well, Greece cannot actually afford that last thing right now....)

Our behavior towards Macedonia right now is bad, I recognize that. Greeks generally distrust most in the neighborhood, but there are reasons to do so: in the past 2 centuries this place has seen a lot of wars, and while Greece happened to be victorious in most of them when involved, thus increasing its size, those wars nevertheless made us feel insecure, increasing our paranoia over security and outside enemies. Especially regarding Macedonia, a lot of people here still think that this country has territorial aspirations against Greece, hidden well behind the name issue. While there is no logical explanation behind these fears, they still exist, and especially during these times of weakness, our society becomes even more anxious about greece's survival. I didnt say all that to make Macedonians sympathize with us, but rather to explain our (paranoid in a sense) mentality regarding our neighbors in general.

No ETR I disagree with your analogy here. When Greece had money especially after entering the EU in 81 they started a systematic campaign to destroy anything Macedonian. There are documents evidenced and posted on this forum in 1982 when this was done for example.

Therefore sorry I don't wish any prosperity what so ever for Greece. I hope they fall to the levels that Macedonia had to endure during the economic blockade imposed by Greece in 1995. And definitely no sympathy for what is happening in Greece now.

[Stojacanec]

Stojacanec, did you ever read the history section of this forum? Didn't you see my posts from 2010 with book and newspaper quotes where Venizelos mentioning population exchange as early as WW-1 days and just a week after their loss in Anatolia?

Didn't you read the speeches of Greek clergy and Venizelos in late 1920s, saying that they would never be able to keep Macedonia inside Greece if they would not import one million Anatolian christians to there? As far as i remember, TrueMacedonian posted these quotes too.

How come you can believe the Greek propaganda like "population exchange enforced them by Turks" while it`s a fact that they used Anatolian christians to depopulate Macedonia and alter it`s demographics?

That's fine Onur I am not in the habbit of taking the word of greek propaganda after all I am Macedonian.

I am sure the population exchanges were designed to benefit Turkey and New Greece who ever instigated them.

What I struggle with nowadays is listening to these people (christian anatolians) telling me how Macedonian I am.

[TrueMacedonian]

EricTheRed said;

WARNING: This will probably sound as rambling about a variety of subjects, you've been warned.
First of all, regarding the population exchange, I assume you mean the big one that happened 1922. Did you ever consider the fact that Greece was forced to exchange populations with Turkey due to our defeat in the previous war? Meaning that the exchange itself was not planned in order to increase the number of Greeks in Macedonia-rather, it was the territory itself that had the space needed to place in all the new arrivals, since both Thessaly and the Peloponnese were unable to support an extra 2 million people.

Venizelos said this in 1922;

The very future of Greece is dependent on the success or failure of the solution of the refugee question. A failure would cause many calamities, while a success would allow Greece to recover in a span of a few years from the burdens bequeathed by the Asia Minor Catastrophe. After the collapse of Greater Greece, we can consolidate the borders of Great Greece only when Macedonia and Western Thrace have become not only politically but also ethnically Greek lands.

ETR said;

Why should a Greek who knows the above sympathize with the Macedonians and recognize their existence, when his own existence isnt recognized by them, since according to most of you most of us greeks are turks, ethiopians, albanians, arvanites etc.

Macedonian's never denied you and your people a right to self-determination with violence, propaganda, and motives towards ethnocide. Your people went above and beyond this scope writing scholarly () books about mutations, 4,000 years history, and unbreakable ties to antiquity only to try and silence people who speak a different language than you at home. Why shouldn't Macedonians dig through history to turn the tables to show you and your countrymen what you most likely are rather than the fantasy you would like to portray? It defeats your propaganda and it shows everyone else out there willing to learn who it is that truly suffers from an identity complex.

Your mentality towards the greeks is thus the same as theirs' towards your people.For example, if you consider lets say me as an Ethiopian/Arvanite/Turk etc, while I am greek, and its not unfair, then there would be nothing wrong with me considering you as a Bulgarian, while you are in fact Macedonian.(EXAMPLE, dont get me wrong). Hence, double standards!

When your right to self-determination steps on my right and denies me then you have every right to be stripped down and skinned alive with words. It is a position you willfully put yourself in.

So focus on protecting the remaining Macedonians in Greece and getting everyone to call Macedonia with its rightful name, both very noble causes, but dont expect any justice about my country's past actions against the macedonians , history proves it is rarely granted, and when it does it brings together a new round of disasters.

I don't expect much from your country or government.

[TrueMacedonian]

Macedonians labeling Greeks as something else is mainly a response to Greece's refusal to recognize the Macedonian identity. If you look at it as a "who started it" issue, clearly the Greeks did. However, I think this response by Macedonians is unproductive and a waste of time because it doesn't bring the two peoples any closer, and the further they are apart, the less likely it is for them to resolve anything. So while Greece will and does deserve the blame for causing the problem, Macedonians share the blame for the increasing distance from any sort of solution when they embark on these silly arguments based on ancestral and genetic evidence that suggest "oh, but the Greeks aren't really Greeks."

Your opinions are your own. But they aren't based on facts. Macedonians called the refugees 'Christian Turks' in the 1920's for good reason. An interview I did with someone who lived under modern greek rule stated the following to me;

IH: What can you tell us about the other minorities in Greece? What stories did you hear about them? And were there any non-Macedonians in your village?

SK: There was a Christian Turk village we passed through with my family sometimes that was between our village Grazhdano and Prespa. These were the refugees from Istanbul. They were not Greeks. As far as I knew they didn’t speak Greek. But they were Christians and so they would be forced to learn Greek and to forget their mother tongue. We didn’t like them and they didn’t like us. Some of the older Macedonians told us that they were left all over the country to make it more Greek. So we didn’t like them but their feelings towards us was mutual. Both sides viewed each other with suspicion. They were really the minority of Macedonia. They came form Turkey. We Macedonians were always there generation after generation. Today we have descendants of these refugees claiming to be Macedonian for thousands of years and the true Macedonians have become the unrecognized minority of their own land occupied for 99 years by foreigners from Athens.

I want to stress the last sentence this woman said again;

Today we have descendants of these refugees claiming to be Macedonian for thousands of years and the true Macedonians have become the unrecognized minority of their own land occupied for 99years by foreigners from Athens.

Do you understand why people like me call a greeks bluff now? It's not a knee jerk reaction. It's based on facts like these.

[vicsinad]

Your opinions are your own. But they aren't based on facts. Macedonians called the refugees 'Christian Turks' in the 1920's for good reason. An interview I did with someone who lived under modern greek rule stated the following to me;



I want to stress the last sentence this woman said again;

Today we have descendants of these refugees claiming to be Macedonian for thousands of years and the true Macedonians have become the unrecognized minority of their own land occupied for 99years by foreigners from Athens.

Do you understand why people like me call a greeks bluff now? It's not a knee jerk reaction. It's based on facts like these.

I certainly do understand and I certainly do know the facts. But what I said was that I do not find it productive to claim that the Greeks are not Greek because of ancestral or genetic evidence. Shall we examine the DNA of every single individual in Greece and Macedonia? And if we do, what would the results say about someone's ethnic identity? If an individual is found to have genetic or ancestral origins somewhere outside of Greece or Macedonia, can they no longer claim ethnic Macedonian or Greek identity? Clearly, ethnic identity is a complicated thing, and it is much, much more than ancestry and genetics.

I hope you understand what I am getting at -- that telling someone who identifies as an ethnic Greek that he is not ethnic Greek is just as unproductive as telling someone who identifies as an ethnic Macedonian that he is not ethnic Macedonian. I think it moves Macedonians away from their goals rather than closer to it, regardless of Turkish origins of certain Greeks. Sure, the population exchanges are critical to understanding what happened to Macedonia and the Macedonians, and how modern Greece was constructed. But what are the benefits and consequences from telling the Greeks that they are not really Greek?

Are Greeks going to suddenly start saying, "Gee, I'm not Greek?"
Does the world really care about ancestral and genetic origins in shaping identity when it comes to the international politics of the dispute?
Is it going to lead to Greeks stopping or more intensely perpetuating their silly arguments?
Is it going to motivate more Macedonians to become more patriotic and stand up for their rights?
Is it going to strain any potential positive relationships with ethnic Greeks within or outside of Greece who do recognize the Macedonian ethnicity and believe that Macedonians deserve equal rights?
Are we going to spend our lives telling each other who we are not instead of focusing on whatever it is that we may be able to work on?

[TrueMacedonian]

I certainly do understand and I certainly do know the facts. But what I said was that I do not find it productive to claim that the Greeks are not Greek because of ancestral or genetic evidence. Shall we examine the DNA of every single individual in Greece and Macedonia? And if we do, what would the results say about someone's ethnic identity? If an individual is found to have genetic or ancestral origins somewhere outside of Greece or Macedonia, can they no longer claim ethnic Macedonian or Greek identity? Clearly, ethnic identity is a complicated thing, and it is much, much more than ancestry and genetics.

I hope you understand what I am getting at -- that telling someone who identifies as an ethnic Greek that he is not ethnic Greek is just as unproductive as telling someone who identifies as an ethnic Macedonian that he is not ethnic Macedonian. I think it moves Macedonians away from their goals rather than closer to it, regardless of Turkish origins of certain Greeks. Sure, the population exchanges are critical to understanding what happened to Macedonia and the Macedonians, and how modern Greece was constructed. But what are the benefits and consequences from telling the Greeks that they are not really Greek?

Are Greeks going to suddenly start saying, "Gee, I'm not Greek?"
Does the world really care about ancestral and genetic origins in shaping identity when it comes to the international politics of the dispute?
Is it going to lead to Greeks stopping or more intensely perpetuating their silly arguments?
Is it going to motivate more Macedonians to become more patriotic and stand up for their rights?
Is it going to strain any potential positive relationships with ethnic Greeks within or outside of Greece who do recognize the Macedonian ethnicity and believe that Macedonians deserve equal rights?
Are we going to spend our lives telling each other who we are not instead of focusing on whatever it is that we may be able to work on?

Again you are stressing at some sort of DNA/genetics thing whereas it has something to do with whose backyard its been for centuries.
Telling a greek who believes he/she is a direct ethnic and cultural descendent from Pericles, Sophocles, and Agamemnon that they are in fact not is not silly or counterproductive when that party uses these bogus claims, especially through the government, to deny our people simple human rights.
You certainly do understand why topics like this are created - http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...ead.php?t=3841

It's not to play tit for tat. It's to show anyone willing to learn that these claimants to hellenic antiquity, who deny we exist at all, are not really what they claim to be. Bringing us together? Respect is a two way street. It was a very long time before Macedonians started calling todays "hellenes" bluff. Apparently in the 1920's no one listened. And today there are Macedonians who don't exist in greece and live in a toxic environment full of intolerance. I disagree with your opinion for a number of reasons. But the number one reason has something to do with basic human rights. Not a name calling game.

[vicsinad]

I disagree with your opinion for a number of reasons. But the number one reason has something to do with basic human rights. Not a name calling game.

I guess this conversation can go many ways and for the sake of trying to say on some sort of point I won't reply to much of what you said (although I do disagree for a variety of reasons). Mainly I cannot see how telling Greeks that they are not Greeks will in any way resolve, or even help to resolve, the human rights issues that Macedonians are facing in Greece.

[Risto the Great]

Mainly I cannot see how telling Greeks that they are not Greeks will in any way resolve, or even help to resolve, the human rights issues that Macedonians are facing in Greece.

Many Macedonians (among others) in Greece need to be told they were not Greeks. It may be a rude awakening but ultimately cathartic for them.

[VMRO]

I guess this conversation can go many ways and for the sake of trying to say on some sort of point I won't reply to much of what you said (although I do disagree for a variety of reasons). Mainly I cannot see how telling Greeks that they are not Greeks will in any way resolve, or even help to resolve, the human rights issues that Macedonians are facing in Greece.

Let me get this straight…
You believe that Macedonians should be ok with Albanians who wish to see Debar secede from Macedonia is fine but educating Macedonians that the modern Greeks have non Greek origins is wrong?

Are you serious?

[vicsinad]

Many Macedonians (among others) in Greece need to be told they were not Greeks. It may be a rude awakening but ultimately cathartic for them.

So then is the hypothesis that after a successful educational campaign enlightening the people of Greece (but particularly the Macedonian part of Greece) of their ancestors national origin or place of birth that they will then begin to respect the rights of Macedonians?

[vicsinad]

Let me get this straight…
You believe that Macedonians should be ok with Albanians who wish to see Debar secede from Macedonia is fine but educating Macedonians that the modern Greeks have non Greek origins is wrong?

Are you serious?

First, I said I support any community's democratic right to secede from a nation (or join another nation). And as I've said before, I don't support the notion that people should break off simply for ethnic reasons, but I still believe democratic rights trump that belief of mine. So if the population of Debar wants to secede -- sure. But do I disagree with something such as ethnic Albanian domination or Greater Albania being the driving reason? Yes, I think it's silly.

Second, I never said educating Macedonians that modern Greeks have non-Greek origins is wrong. I said I don't see how telling Greeks that they are not Greeks is productive. Unproductive and wrong are two different things, in my view.

[Risto the Great]

So then is the hypothesis that after a successful educational campaign enlightening the people of Greece (but particularly the Macedonian part of Greece) of their ancestors national origin or place of birth that they will then begin to respect the rights of Macedonians?

Well after reminding my cousins that their great grandfather used to hide from the pricks, yeah ... they opened their eyes a little.

[VMRO]

vicsinad, off the topic.

Is your background of Vlach ethnicity, either full or part (if applicable)