Financial Crisis in Greece

[Louis]

I am not an economic expert however the results below clearly show the state Greece is in compared to Macedonia/US/Mexico and Turkey
You have to look closer when you compare Macedonia/Greece to USA/Mexico. Mexico appears to be in a better condition than USA.

Turkey's GDP is $773b USD whereas Greece's GDP is $299b USD. The ratio is 2.6:1 - what does that mean? Using the GDP alone doesn't paint the whole picture.

It’s not so complicated. Gross Domestic Product (GDP) shows the economic volume/size/power of a country, which is the product of the population size and the average wealth. I used GDP per capita which shows the average wealth and DOES give a picture, not the whole picture. A rich country can be in recession and a poor country can be growing.
Mexico is growing now after a series of economic crises it had in the last decade. It is not in better condition than USA in simply anything.

Macedonia has been independent for two decades and had to, and is still climbing many internal hurdles. In the meantime most of it's neighbours (especially Greece & Albanians) want it destroyed by imposing blockades, vetoes, spreading propaganda etc.

This isn’t how it goes. Slovenia has done miracles. They became independent at the same time without war. On the other hand, in your case independence brought economic disaster and it took you 17 years (2008) to simply reach the level you were at 1991. At least, things are going well, you’re still growing and I think you have again a moderately positive outlook at the moment (the crisis had a small impact).

Modern Greece have had a head start from the date it was created in 1832 or a 160 year head start. The Greek people have been donated hundreds of billions of Euros by other countries and instead of accepting the responsibility, they blame everyone else except themselves.

LOL, this isn’t exactly… a donation. I’m not a whiner myself but I have never been or voted pro-European either. I believe in the old-fashioned economic protectionism, i.e., exit from European Union.

I wonder which country is at the bottom of the list.

Greece is at the bottom (or close to the bottom) of various lists, especially among European Union members. Still, that doesn’t put us in the same wealth and development league with our neighbours, which was my point at the first place.

[Coolski]

Greece is at the bottom (or close to the bottom) of various lists, especially among European Union members. Still, that doesn’t put us in the same wealth and development league with you, which was my point at the first place.

Prior to Greece's entry to the EU you were economically weaker than Macedonia. In 30 years of accepting HUGE welfare payments from the EU while also hindering Macedonia's free market transition in every way possible, you have still remained at the bottom of the EU. Macedonia on the other hand has suffered from transitional issues of lazy post-communism as well as extreme greek hindrance. While this has not been easy, the Macedonian economy is somehow surviving and faring relatively well giving the circumstances. Somehow Macedonia is attracting new investments and there is a positive atmosphere in where the country is heading.

Nobody has such confidence in Greece, and nobody will until modern greeks change their structure, and culture. At the moment people see you as gypsies who beg for money and dance it away.

[Louis]

Prior to Greece's entry to the EU you were economically weaker than Macedonia.

?!? No we weren't. Where did you get this bizarre idea? Greece entered European Economic Community in 1980. I see that throughout the 80s Macedonia was among the poorest Republics of Yugoslavia with a GDP per capita about 2/3 of the Yugoslavian average.

In 30 years of accepting HUGE welfare payments from the EU while also hindering Macedonia's free market transition in every way possible, you have still remained at the bottom of the EU.

Actually, Greece is 15th among the 27 countries of European Union and 13th among the 17 countries of Euro zone.

[makgerman]

It’s not so complicated..

LOL, Yes in the modern Greek lazy way of thinking.

I used GDP per capita which shows the average wealth and DOES give a picture, not the whole picture. A rich country can be in recession and a poor country can be growing.

Well Greece isn't a rich country, it's GDP isn't growing, it's debt is too high, it imports more than it exports, lots of their assets are sold to foreigners etc. So how can you claim it to be better off than countries with a lower GDP.
But, I have to admit that one thing that Greece does specialise is in sucking up to EU or US or EU or whichever is on their side. It has worked for them but we'll see how much longer the others will tolerate.

This isn’t how it goes. Slovenia has done miracles. They became independent at the same time without war. On the other hand, in your case independence brought economic disaster and it took you 17 years (2008) to simply reach the level you were at 1991. At least, things are going well, you’re still growing and I think you have again a moderately positive outlook at the moment (the crisis had a small impact).

You haven't got a clue about the former Yugoslav republics - do you? There was a gross economic imbalance between the southern republics such as Macedonia compared with Slovenia. Yugoslavia invested much more in Slovenia initially where the major manufacturing industry was based. They would use cheap material from the southern republics, fabricate the products and sell them back 10 times the price. The other republics had no choice. By the time Yugoslavia was dissolved, Slovenija was way ahead of Macedonia.

LOL, this isn’t exactly… a donation...

Another typical non-thankful expression by a Greek. I am not surprised.

Greece is at the bottom (or close to the bottom) of various lists especially among European Union members. Still, that doesn’t put us in the same wealth and development league with our neighbours, which was my point at the first place.

No you are not in the same league, you are at a lower level. Turkey is way ahead. Bulgaria will catch up unless you receive further donations from the EU.

[Louis]

Actually, I claimed that GDP per capita is the easiest and simplest way to compare the average wealth of two countries (regardless their size).

Greece: Turkey 2,5: 1,
Greece: Bulgaria 3,8: 1

How is Turkey way ahead? How is Bulgaria catching up? I was referring to present. If Greece goes poor in the future it will be reflected in the future numbers. Anyone can have high hopes.

When Yugoslavia broke up Slovenia was already ahead. Slovenia: Macedonia 3:1 (1989). But now it’s more than 5:1.

[damian]

guys are talking past eachother business in the whole region sucks thats why the mafias are the wealthiest

[George S.]

guys how about all the corruption that has gone on politicians etc feathering their nests & criminals.With all the blockading from greece in 1990's that didn't help either.Also under yugoslavia & communism being under the serbs we didn't exactly get the lion's share either.We were allways the last to get anything if anything.Slovenia was extremely well off having all that money to deal with.Whil'st macedonians can only be blamed theselves of what happened to it.But the stupid neighbours didn't help as well blocking their eu or nato memberships.Greece hasn't been our friend in all this.

[makgerman]

Actually, I claimed that GDP per capita is the easiest and simplest way to compare the average wealth of two countries (regardless their size).

If Greeks only look at the GDP per capita as the only tool to prove their wealth then no wonder they are in the current state.

GDP per capita may be misleading. Majority of Greece's people have low incomes. Many are unemployed and some don't receive their salary on time. A small number are only on high incomes. The average does not paint the full picture.

When Yugoslavia broke up Slovenia was already ahead. Slovenia: Macedonia 3:1 (1989). But now it’s more than 5:1.

I am not surprised why it isn't more than that. Slovenia like your spoiled country had the western EU countries such as Germany, Austria and France helping her to expand.

Compare that to the way Macedonia has been treated especially by the neighbouring racist country whose main goal has been (and still is) to destroy the very existence of our country.

It's a pity the hard headed Greeks haven't gone through it. Maybe then they'll understand what it all means.

[makgerman]

Greece in economic and social chaos

Some better news to the Greeks. They will need more free donations to survive:

Source: http://www.publicserviceeurope.com/a...d-social-chaos

The economic outlook in Greece has been revised to "negative" by one of the 'big three' ratings agencies despite the country's eurozone bail-out and there were suggestions that the nation may need an extra €7bn to stay afloat financially. The move to alter the Hellenic Republic's sovereign credit rating from "stable" to "negative" by Standard & Poor's suggests that politicians and officials may have to return from their summer holidays, should the single currency crisis escalate further. Street protests and violent racist attacks have also spiked in recent weeks.

Many economists had already predicted that Greece would soon be forced to exit the eurozone. And the S&P's report suggested that Greece would have to seek further bail-out funding of up to €7bn from the European Union and International Monetary Fund, in order to remain inside the single currency. But the ratings agency also maintained that the Greek government would fail to make the further public spending cuts necessary for the country to receive the next trance of its agreed bail-out, which was due for payment in the autumn.

Explaining the rationale for the revision, a spokesman for S&P's said: "The negative outlook reflects the potential for a downgrade if shortfalls in Greece's 2012 deficit and arrears targets established under the current EU/International Monetary Fund programme are not met by new funding or other relief from members of the Troika - the EU, the European Central Bank and the IMF. We see the likelihood of shortfalls, owing to election-related delays in the implementation of budgetary consolidation measures for the current year, as well as the worsening trajectory of the Greek economy. We project gross domestic product will contract by 10 to 11 per cent cumulatively during 2012-2013, versus the negative 4 to 5 per cent assumed by the EU/IMF programme.

"In our opinion, the deepening contraction in Greek GDP beyond the EU/IMF programme's assumptions and the related worsening of the fiscal position imply a high likelihood that Greece will require additional financing of as much as €7bn or 3.7 per cent of GDP for 2012. This takes into account a fiscal deviation of at least €3bn or 1.5 per cent of GDP."

Evaluating the country's economic performance at the start of this year, the S&P's stated: "In the first quarter of 2012, Greek real GDP contracted by 6.5 per cent year on year, with domestic demand collapsing by nearly 11 per cent over the same period. Assuming a contraction of 7 per cent during 2012, Greek GDP is likely to be 21 per cent below its 2007 peak by year-end in volume terms; reflecting five consecutive years of economic depression, during which unemployment has soared from 7.9 per cent to 22.5 per cent. As a result of this economic weakness and due to an absence of progress on tax administration reforms, collection of personal, corporate and indirect taxes is well below target.

"The severe liquidity squeeze in the Greek economy is visible in rising public sector arrears and negative credit and deposit growth. At present, we understand that public sector arrears amount to approximately €6bn to €7bin, or an estimated 3 to 3.5 per cent of GDP - as the central government and public companies continue to delay payment to suppliers. Over the last two years, the total stock of lending to Greek residents has contracted by 12 per cent of GDP. Without credit returning to the real economy - the perspective for a recovery in economic activity, employment and fiscal consolidation continues to be gloomy."

Setting out the uphill battle Greece faces to achieve the reforms necessary to receive its next bail-out payment, the S&P's report stated: "To convince the EU and IMF will mean moving ahead with a mixture of further public sector salary cuts, headcount reductions, pension adjustments, as well as most probably the elimination of energy subsidies. On the revenue side, the Troika is likely to require more measurable progress on reorganising the tax administration, as well as on collection of the special property tax. We continue to see major impediments to the full implementation of these measures, many of which are institutional in nature. Moreover, the fiscal adjustments, if implemented, will in our view prolong the contraction of the economy, leading to a further loss of popular support for future fiscal and structural reforms and hence weakening the new government's already tentative mandate. "

Meanwhile, campaign group Human Rights Watch has reported that the Greek authorities have been rounding up migrants for deportation "based on little more than their physical appearance" in violation of international and EU laws. The efforts were thought to be an attempt to reduce the country's welfare bill, stamp out the black economy and win electoral support from nationalist voters.

"Greece has the right to enforce its immigration laws and after a fair process, to deport people with no legal basis to stay in the country," said Benjamin Ward, deputy director of the Europe and Central Asia division at Human Rights Watch. "But it doesn't have the right to treat people like criminals or to presume irregular immigration status just because of their race or ethnicity." The campaign group also highlighted a rise in xenophobic violence in the country – with gangs attacking migrants and asylum seekers without punishment by the authorities. "Greek police have a duty to protect all foreigners from violence, just as they do Greek citizens," added. Ward.

In a further development that signalled additional pain for the eurozone, German industrial production fell by 0.9 per cent in July. A spokesman for the British-based Capital Economics think-tank said: "Business surveys point to much steeper rates of contraction over the coming months. As such, there are few signs as yet of any boost from the drop in the euro exchange rate. With the supposedly ultra-competitive German manufacturing sector in recession, the omens for the rest of the eurozone economy are extremely worrying. Spanish industrial production figures already released this morning showed a 6.3 per cent contraction in the year to June. Needless to say, such a weak economic environment will make further fiscal progress in the indebted peripheral economies very difficult indeed."

Read more: http://www.publicserviceeurope.com/a...#ixzz23l6818qS

[chentovist]

Greece begins fire sale frenzy

http://www.theage.com.au/world/going-going-8230-greece-begins-fire-sale-frenzy-20120920-2694z.html

Going, going … Greece begins fire sale frenzy
September 21, 2012

Helena Smith

Islands, the post office and even a royal palace will be on the auction block




WHEN you hit hard times, it is time to pawn or part with the family silver, and an unprecedented clearout is now under way in Athens.
Greece has announced it will sell anything it can do without - and in the case of the debt-choked nation that means letting go of islands, royal palaces, prime real estate, marinas, airports, roads, the state-owned gas company, lottery and post office. Indeed anything, really, that can be sold.
The downsizing now also includes diplomatic residences abroad. ''There is a decision to lease and sell properties that for various reasons are not being used,'' said Foreign Ministry spokesman Gregory Delavekouras. He said the ministry's finance department was hard at work evaluating ''market conditions''.
The sell-off emerged on Wednesday, a day after Athens' finance minister revealed what most Greeks feared but had never been officially told: with national income projected to fall 25 per cent by 2014, their economy is slipping inexorably into a 1930s-style depression. Officials are now working frantically to get a fire sale off the ground.
For potential buyers of ambassadorial homes and consul's quarters, the good news is that the Foreign Ministry is fully aware of what and where the properties are, unlike the Greek state, which until recently was struggling to attain an inventory of what it owned given the lack of a proper land registry.
Estate agents are already being sounded out to sell a 920-square-metre consular residence in London's up-market Holland Park.
Since the outbreak of Greece's economic crisis in late 2009, the country's diplomatic presence abroad, like so much else, has been dramatically scaled back to cut expenditure. In what will surely be sad news for Constantine, the former king of Greece, officials have also let slip that the Tatoi Palace, the royal family's historic estate at the foot of Mount Parnitha, will be sold off. The property, acquired by the family in 1871, was originally set in gardens laid out to ''provide the typical charms of both the Greek and English countryside'' and, as such, comes with some 40 outbuildings, stables, a swimming pool and several royal graves.
The sell-off, which will include buildings in Brussels and Belgrade, Rome and Nicosia, is part of a privatisation campaign that may well be the most ambitious ever conducted on the continent of Europe
With Athens' debt load still at a whopping 166 per cent of GDP, the country has agreed to raise €19 billion ($A23.7 billion) by 2015. Earlier this year, the cash-strapped Culture Ministry even announced it would make the Acropolis more ''readily available'' for photographers and film crews.
Previously, the ancient site had been regarded as ''too sacred' to rent out or besmirch with commercial use.
For many Greeks, the new drive is the most humiliating development yet in a process of brutal fiscal realignment that has caused poverty and unemployment to hit record levels.
''Foreigners have been allowed to occupy our country and now they are going to buy up our country at rock-bottom prices,'' Notis Marias, the parliamentary representative of the vehemently anti-bailout Independent Greeks party railed in parliament.
GUARDIAN

[TrueMacedonian]

http://www.theage.com.au/world/going...920-2694z.html

Going, going … Greece begins fire sale frenzy
September 21, 2012

Helena Smith

Islands, the post office and even a royal palace will be on the auction block




WHEN you hit hard times, it is time to pawn or part with the family silver, and an unprecedented clearout is now under way in Athens.
Greece has announced it will sell anything it can do without - and in the case of the debt-choked nation that means letting go of islands, royal palaces, prime real estate, marinas, airports, roads, the state-owned gas company, lottery and post office. Indeed anything, really, that can be sold.
The downsizing now also includes diplomatic residences abroad. ''There is a decision to lease and sell properties that for various reasons are not being used,'' said Foreign Ministry spokesman Gregory Delavekouras. He said the ministry's finance department was hard at work evaluating ''market conditions''.
The sell-off emerged on Wednesday, a day after Athens' finance minister revealed what most Greeks feared but had never been officially told: with national income projected to fall 25 per cent by 2014, their economy is slipping inexorably into a 1930s-style depression. Officials are now working frantically to get a fire sale off the ground.
For potential buyers of ambassadorial homes and consul's quarters, the good news is that the Foreign Ministry is fully aware of what and where the properties are, unlike the Greek state, which until recently was struggling to attain an inventory of what it owned given the lack of a proper land registry.
Estate agents are already being sounded out to sell a 920-square-metre consular residence in London's up-market Holland Park.
Since the outbreak of Greece's economic crisis in late 2009, the country's diplomatic presence abroad, like so much else, has been dramatically scaled back to cut expenditure. In what will surely be sad news for Constantine, the former king of Greece, officials have also let slip that the Tatoi Palace, the royal family's historic estate at the foot of Mount Parnitha, will be sold off. The property, acquired by the family in 1871, was originally set in gardens laid out to ''provide the typical charms of both the Greek and English countryside'' and, as such, comes with some 40 outbuildings, stables, a swimming pool and several royal graves.
The sell-off, which will include buildings in Brussels and Belgrade, Rome and Nicosia, is part of a privatisation campaign that may well be the most ambitious ever conducted on the continent of Europe
With Athens' debt load still at a whopping 166 per cent of GDP, the country has agreed to raise €19 billion ($A23.7 billion) by 2015. Earlier this year, the cash-strapped Culture Ministry even announced it would make the Acropolis more ''readily available'' for photographers and film crews.
Previously, the ancient site had been regarded as ''too sacred' to rent out or besmirch with commercial use.
For many Greeks, the new drive is the most humiliating development yet in a process of brutal fiscal realignment that has caused poverty and unemployment to hit record levels.
''Foreigners have been allowed to occupy our country and now they are going to buy up our country at rock-bottom prices,'' Notis Marias, the parliamentary representative of the vehemently anti-bailout Independent Greeks party railed in parliament.
GUARDIAN

I guess Karma is real after all

[George S.]

After all the kolnejne well our prayers have been answered there is a god afterall.

[MKPrilep]

Skopje. Khalkidhiki turns into an oasis of luxurious villas of politicians from Russia and the Balkans, writes Macedonian Utrinski Vesnik daily.
According to Greek daily newspaper Kathimerini, this is the favourite place of several politicians from Macedonia and the region. The newspaper says that former Macedonian prime minister Vlado Buckovski owns a villa in Neos Marmaras, while Bulgarian President Rosen Plevneliev has a summer house in Ouranoupoli.
Khalkidhiki shelters the villas of politicians from Serbia and Albania, too.
Utrinski Vesnik writes that it is well known in Macedonia that Buckovski has an apartment in Greece.
Mayor of Skopje Municipality Centre Vladimir Todorovic is believed to own property in Greece, too, as well as Telekabel owner Professor Savo Klimovski.
Due to the crisis in Greece and the low property price citizens of Macedonia bought villas in the neighbouring country, Utrinski Vesnik comments further.

http://www.focus-fen.net/index.php?id=n288430

[George S.]

i heard the greeks still are under by about 30 billion euoros & apparently they are cooking the books..

[Risto the Great]

French Bank sells Greek Bank for 1 Euro

http://macedoniaonline.eu/content/view/22055/46/

Thursday, 18 October 2012
Credit Agricole, France’s third largest bank, is exiting the Greek market after agreeing to sell Emporiki Bank to Alpha Bank for symbolic sum of just 1 euro.

The deal marks the end of Credit Agricole’s six year investment in Greek banking, which resulted in huge losses because of the debt crisis. But getting rid of a toxic asset will cost the French major bank a pretty penny.

The French lender said its third-quarter net profit will drop 2 billion as a result of the sale, which is expected to be completed by the end of the year. This includes a loss on asset sales, a transaction cost between 300 and 400 million euro, and the cost of a new recapitalization of Emporiki, bought in 2006 for 2.2 billion euro.

Under the terms, Crédit Agricole will pour 550 million euro into Emporiki before the sale in addition to 2.3 billion euros France’s lender had to inject into Emporiki in July at the request of the Bank of Greece. It will also need to maintain a 1.4 billion euro credit line to Emporiki that the Greek bank would repay in three installments over the next two years. This credit line will be "guaranteed by quality financial assets selected by Crédit Agricole," the bank said, without providing additional details.

Earlier this year Credit Agricole saw its profit drop 67% after second quarter losses in Greece and a write-down of its stake in Italian bank Intesa Sanpaolo.

The merger of Alpha Bank and Emporiki will create Greece’s second-largest bank by loans. Alpha Bank will add 17.4 billion euros of Emporiki loans as part of the deal, and the combined entity will have about 61 billion euros of loan.

Meanwhile, other French banks are also trying to get Greek asses off their hands. Societe Generale SA, France’s second-largest bank, is engaged in exclusive talks to sell its Athens-based Geniki Bank to Greece’s Piraeus Bank.

I reckon you could buy all of Greece for about 2 Euro right now.