Financial Crisis in Greece

[Voltron]

Do Greeks have the exclusive right to the Christian symbol that is the Cross as well?

The cross is a religous symbol not ethnic one. You are claiming the sunburst on ethnic grounds not religous. There in lies the difference Daskale.

[Daskalot]

The cross is a religous symbol not ethnic one. You are claiming the sunburst on ethnic grounds not religous. There in lies the difference Daskale.

Seeing that you have a great affection for the East Roman Empire which was the first "nation" to use the Cross. A Roman was a citizen and a Christian of the East Roman Empire, thus in a sense the Cross was not mainly religious but also denoted your belonging to the Empire.
So why not claim it as exclusively Greek, you already think that you are the rightful heirs to the Empire do you not?

[Voltron]

No, the cross did not imply ethnicity. It is religous symbol, not ethnic.

If it represents citizens of a nation that was using it as a national identifier is a different story. In all respects though it was not an ethnic identifier, since the Catholics and not only were using it as well.

Yes, we consider ourselves the natural heirs of the Byzantine empire just as we consider ourselves the natural descendents of the Ancient Greeks as well.

I do not see anybody challenging Greeks to how we relate ourselves to the Byzantine empire so it was never up for debate.

[George S.]

voltron you are totally wrong the macedonian royalty used the macedonian sun & not the star of vergina.That's how much you know.The greeks lay claim to it as of 1978 after andrinikos discovered it.Also greece presupposed that it didn't exist anywhere else.The greeks claimed falsely that these symbols were exclusively greek national symbols what a big lie.If you went to ROM(republic oof macedonia) you would find this symbol plastered literally everywhere.On churches on rocks etc.THe macedonians knew all this time about their own symbol.it just doesn't end there it goes to exclusivity to name & language that the macedonians spoke exclusively greek & trheir identity was greek that is a lie.
So voltron i have studied how the greeks came to own the star of vergina.How it owns the symbol exclusively it stole it from the macedonians.So no wonder it would object to the macedonians using it because it would prove we are the real macedonians.What do we see more of the same if they say there are no macedonians then they think there aren't any.So if they don't let them use their symbols it's another nail of denial on their identity & language.Also you are claiming a monopoly on the sun symbol itself of which has never been heard of.You have no right to do that because it was never yours.Even the name vergina was changed toponym of the place that the larnax was found it was called kutlesh which is the macedonian name.It just goes how far greece is prepared to go.

[Voltron]

voltron you are totally wrong the macedonian royalty used the macedonian sun & not the star of vergina.That's how much you know.The greeks lay claim to it as of 1978 after andrinikos discovered it.Also greece presupposed that it didn't exist anywhere else.The greeks claimed falsely that these symbols were exclusively greek national symbols what a big lie.If you went to ROM(republic oof macedonia) you would find this symbol plastered literally everywhere.On churches on rocks etc.THe macedonians knew all this time about their own symbol.it just doesn't end there it goes to exclusivity to name & language that the macedonians spoke exclusively greek & trheir identity was greek that is a lie.
So voltron i have studied how the greeks came to own the star of vergina.How it owns the symbol exclusively it stole it from the macedonians.So no wonder it would object to the macedonians using it because it would prove we are the real macedonians.What do we see more of the same if they say there are no macedonians then they think there aren't any.So if they don't let them use their symbols it's another nail of denial on their identity & language.Also you are claiming a monopoly on the sun symbol itself of which has never been heard of.You have no right to do that because it was never yours.Even the name vergina was changed toponym of the place that the larnax was found it was called kutlesh which is the macedonian name.It just goes how far greece is prepared to go.

George, never had an issue with you mate. Your're alright but just wanted to point some things out

The opposite is true. It was only after Andronikos discovered the finding that it was adopted as a symbol for ROM, not before hand.
He publicised the heck out of it as some exclusive Ancient Macedonian symbol when in reality it wasnt. This is not about having a monopoly on the sunburst, but to prevent it from being used against soverign territory or people. Look what happened to Serbia, they gave autonomy to the Albanians and the thanks they got was a territory grab which Serbia feels is central to Serbdom. This is the balkans there is no room for mistakes to be made. So naturally countries in our area have to be extremely careful not to have potential problems that can be taken advantage from Superpowers to leverage other countries or even split them apart.

Kutlesh if I am not mistaken is a Turkish word. Maybe Onur can confirm on it. I would rather have a Macedonian word for it, I dont know why you feel comfortable with a Turkish one.

[Onur]

Kutlesh is the name of a town in Macedonia, right?

Why you think it`s weird to use that word Voltron? Didn't you know that all the village names in Macedonia are either Turkish or Macedonian but nothing else? As you know perfectly well, all the current Greek sounding names has been imposed upon people just about 90-100 years ago. So, i believe it`s weird to use recently imposed Greek names for these places, while it`s perfectly fine to use their original Macedonian or Turkish names.

[George S.]

Voltron.the macedonian sun symbol is ALL over macedonia.I have studied the way your side got it & what they think of it.They claim exclusive ownership & that it doesn't appear anywhere else ecept in VERGINA.How wrong & stupid is that.THe macedonians in ROM used this symbol for centueries & were aware of it & it is plastered all over rom.You look at the mother of christ with the child she has a sun symbol on her veil.You look at churches etc you will see that.You look at macedonian rock art thousands of years old in abundance in rom.
Voltron the name kutlesh like all the other names were macedonian toponym names.that your govt changed .So saying it's turkish or macedonian is immaterial when one considers the whole country as macedonia.Also the king samoil used the macedonian sun in his macedonian dynasty empire.Proof that it was a macedonian symbol.
Also you can't say all the names were turkish some were some weren't.The word woden is like very old meaning a place of water.What i'm saying it's not like names made up on the run the naming & renaming of places especially they were never occupied by the greeks before.You think you got like a god given right to rename to hellenise people & places.The macedonians weren't like that they liked to preserve places & toponyms with a few exceptions like alexandria named after alexander.

[Voltron]

Kutlesh is the name of a town in Macedonia, right?

Why you think it`s weird to use that word Voltron? Didn't you know that all the village names in Macedonia are either Turkish or Macedonian but nothing else? As you know perfectly well, all the current Greek sounding names has been imposed upon people just about 90-100 years ago. So, i believe it`s weird to use recently imposed Greek names for these places, while it`s perfectly fine to use their original Macedonian or Turkish names.

Original as of when Onur ? It depends where your starting point is.
Anyway there were many Slav toponyms in Peloponnese as well. We still have them. We didnt change everything as you make it out to be. So yes, it is normal to have those toponyms in Macedonia. Turkish, not so much though.

[George S.]

votron do you understand what it means to make things on the run they either forgot to change a name or they ran out of names to make up.On some toponyms they changed the name might have been eg a toponym that says what the country is like they just made up idiotic & made up on the run.ther are a huge number of examples.

[Brian]

"German Chancellor Angela Merkel also said Europe needed "structural changes" and not just "declarations of intent" in comments seen as referring to Italy.

Does she mean like 'pulling their finger out'?

ITALY TO PASS REFORMS THIS WEEKEND AMID MARKET MAYHEM

http://au.news.yahoo.com/world/a/-/world/11512193/italy-to-pass-reforms-this-weekend-amid-market-mayhem/

November 10, 2011
ROME (AFP) - Italy's parliament will pass key reforms by Sunday in a bid to halt market mayhem, after which Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi will step down and talks on a new government will start, officials said.

The news came as the country's borrowing rates soared above 7.0 percent on Wednesday, levels that could make it impossible for Rome to keep servicing its 1.9-trillion euro ($2.6 trillion) debt, a spike that rattled financial markets around the world.

The panic prompted President Giorgio Napolitano to step in to reassure investors that the economic reforms would be passed quickly and Italy would not endure "a prolonged period of political and parliamentary inactivity".

But the European Commission warned that "extra measures" may be needed to meet Italy's target of balancing the budget by 2013 in a questionnaire sent as part of a special EU-IMF monitoring mission to ensure Italy was on track.

Eurozone chief Jean-Claude Juncker also upped the pressure during a visit to Lisbon saying: "Italy has not only to announce but to implement measures."

German Chancellor Angela Merkel also said Europe needed "structural changes" and not just "declarations of intent" in comments seen as referring to Italy.

Final approval of the austerity reforms could come as early as Saturday, Italian media reported, citing parliamentary sources. The upper house is expected to approve the measures by Friday, leaving the lower house to vote over the weekend.

Meanwhile Napolitano appointed as senator-for life former European commissioner Mario Monti, whose name has emerged as a potential successor to Berlusconi at the head of a technocratic government to pass unpopular reforms.

"His name has been circulating for weeks as head of a government to manage the economic emergency. The next few days will tell whether the economist respected around the world will get the call," La Repubblica daily said.

Analysts agreed that the Senate appointment could be a precursor to a promotion into the hot seat for Monti, although premiers do not necessarily have to be parliamentarians in Italy.

Monti worked in Brussels between 1994 and 2004, earning a reputation as a fearless official who took on US giants Microsoft and General Electric.

Napolitano said he would start talks on forming a new government immediately after Berlusconi's exit and would call snap elections if the talks fall through, adding that there could be "emergency measures" in case of a prolonged crisis.

Italy's leading businesses, including the employers federation Confindustria, issued a call for a "national emergency government" to be created as soon as possible.

Berlusconi said he would prefer early elections in February adding that he would not be running for office, effectively announcing the end of a political career spanning two decades which received the coup de grace via a parliamentary revolt on Tuesday.

He named Angelino Alfano, a 41-year-old former justice minister and leader of the ruling People of Freedom (PDL) party, as his favoured successor.

Italy's stock market initially opened higher on Wednesday but then quickly plunged by as much as 5.0 percent before closing 3.78 percent down on the day.

Shares in Berlusconi's Mediaset business empire led the drop, falling 12.04 percent.

Investors fear Italy could fail to implement the rerequired forms and become the next victim of the debt crisis gripping Europe in the wake of Greece, Ireland and Portugal, fellow eurozone nations that have been forced to seek EU-IMF bailouts.

The uncertainty in Italy as well as continued wrangling in Greece also helped drag down the value of the euro against the dollar, pushing it to $1.3598 in late London trade Wednesday, down sharply from $1.3836 late Tuesday in New York.

European Union and European Central Bank officials also arrived in Rome as part of a special EU-IMF surveillance mechanism agreed last week, as the European Commission urged Italy to make extra effort to cut its debt.

"As we estimate that in the current economic context the planned fiscal strategy does not ensure the achievement of a balanced budget in 2013, additional measures will be needed," read a message from the EU.

Berlusconi had promised his fellow eurozone leaders that he would overhaul Italy's pensions system and accelerate sales of state assets, but the reforms have stalled to the intense frustration of Germany and others.

Berlusconi's resignation looked set to have more personal ramifications for the larger-than-life premier, who is currently a defendant in three trials; for bribery, tax fraud, abuse of power and paying for sex with a 17-year-old girl.

Analysts said Berlusconi's move could speed up these trials and prevent him from pushing through laws to shield him from justice.

Asked, in an interview with La Stampa, about his future plans, Berlusconi said he could help campaigning -- "something I've always been good at."

Or, he added: "Maybe I will go back to being president of AC Milan."

[Zarni]

It amazes me that I our Government still hopes and works so hard to be a passenger of this sinking ship don’t Macedonians understand there mostly likely will not be a Euro zone very soon then what

Anyway how many here are really enjoying watching this EU disaster unravel I am

[Stojacanec]

Original as of when Onur ? It depends where your starting point is.
Anyway there were many Slav toponyms in Peloponnese as well. We still have them. We didnt change everything as you make it out to be. So yes, it is normal to have those toponyms in Macedonia. Turkish, not so much though.

Voltron, are you going to tell me you haven't changed many names of places and things to Greek sounding in aegean Macedonia?

Many of the towns that had Macedonian or Turkish names originated only a few hundred years ago. But so you go changing them giving youselves the presuming direct line to antiquity.

[Onur]

Stojacanec, lets leave him be. He thinks like there was 10 million people in Greece 2000+ years ago, just as of today and all these towns, cities were supposedly existed with greekish names in antiquity and we bad mongols&skopians came laters, and changed it all. They are happy to "restore" it all after 2000 years, right Voltron???

[makedonche]

It amazes me that I our Government still hopes and works so hard to be a passenger of this sinking ship don’t Macedonians understand there mostly likely will not be a Euro zone very soon then what

Anyway how many here are really enjoying watching this EU disaster unravel I am

Zarni
Loving every minute of it.....can't come fast enough for me! Matter of fact anyone or anything that encroches on Macedonia or Macedonians gets my wish for eternal destruction!

[Napoleon]

This is really going to be interesting if Italy goes next because potentially it could be a hell of a lot more serious. Like modern Greece, Italy was an artificial national created little less then 150 years ago out of a multitude of different and widely diverse ethnic groups and peoples. Unlike modern Greece and it policy of neo-hellenism, Italianism has not been as successful. There are simply dozens of well organised political groups demanding full indepence from 'Italy' or at the very least, complete autonomy. This is evident from south Tyrol, Venetia and Padania in the north all the way to sicily in the south. The situation is even more real when consider that even in good financial times the peoples of northern Italy who are relatively properous greatly resent constantly footing the bill for what they consider to be a lazy (modern Greece like) south etc. The possibility that Italy could break up into numourous other little independant nations is very real.

We live in interesting times my friends.