Nikola Gruevski

[Venom]

"In early April the Germans similarly intervened in the Balkans, invading Greece and Yugoslavia; here too they made rapid progress, eventually forcing the Allies to evacuate after Germany conquered the Greek island of Crete by the end of May."

^ Weinberg, Gerhard L. A World at Arms: A Global History of World War II, pg. 229

To say that the result of WW2 could have been changed by greece is rich to say the very least. The Axis conquered the whole Balkans in a month.

And the war of independance the greeks fought was won by greece... plus the UK, France and Russia.

[Spartan]

They certainly gave it to the Italians to begin with.

Spartan, I am not so sure about honouring war heroes. Some of Greece's favourites in (now) Northern Greece were worthy of very little respect in my opinion.

The leaders yes, I can agree with that.
But soldiers are just pawns Risto, you cant blame them for following orders.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Spartan, can you tell me where abouts in Greece did the battle against the invading Italians took place?

Was it locals from the region or an army from Athens which was sent up?

Was Nikola Gruevski's grandfather one of those that fought in those battles?


As for the the war of independence, please read my take on it here:

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=170

[Spartan]

To say that the result of WW2 could have been changed by greece is rich to say the very least. The Axis conquered the whole Balkans in a month.[/B]

Its not me who is claiming this Venom, but the German Chief of staff, as well as many prominent European leaders at the time. You may have been misinformed about Greeces value to the allied forces.
Heres some info I gathered about Greeces contribution to the allied forces in ww2.

Field Marshall Keitel, who was Chief of Staff of the German Army, was very bitter when he said that "The unbelievable strong resistance of the Greeks delayed by two or more vital months the German attack against Russia; if we did not have this long delay, the outcome of the war would have been different in the eastern front and in the war in general, and others would have been accused and would be occupying this seat as defendants today”.

Greeks in World War II: Some Interesting Facts

Greece, during WWII, was the only country that was forced to confront the armies of four countries simultaneously:

Albania Italy Germany Bulgaria.

DURATION OF RESISTANCE (in days)
Greece 219
Norway 61
France 43 (The superpower at the time)
Poland 30
Belgium 18
Holland 4
Yugoslavia 3
Czechoslovakia 0
Luxemburg 0
Denmark 0 (The Danes surrendered to a Hitler's motorcyclist who was conveying Hitler's request to the Danish king for the crossing of the Nazi armies. The Danish king indicating submission surrendered his
Crown to the motorcyclist to take to Berlin and Hitler....)

TOTAL GREEK LOSSES CAUSED BY OCCUPYING POWER:
Albanians 1165
Italians 8000
Bulgarians 25,000
Germans 50,000

TOTAL LOSES IN POPULATION PERCENTAGES :
Greece 10%
Soviet Union 2.8%
Holland 2.2%
France 2%
Poland 1.8%
Yugoslavia 1.7%
Belgium 1.5%


“For the sake of historical truth I must verify that only the Greeks, of all the adversaries who confronted us, fought with bold courage and highest disregard of death.."-Adolph Hitler -(From speech he delivered to Reichstag on 4 May 1941)

"The word heroism I am afraid does not render the least of those acts of self-sacrifice of the Greeks, which were the defining factor in the victorious outcome of the common struggle of the nations, during WWII, for the human freedom and dignity. If it were not for the bravery of the Greeks and their courage, the outcome of WW II would be undetermined."- Winston Churchill - Paraphrased from one of his speeches to the British Parliament on 24, April 1941)

Until now we used to say that the Greeks fight like heroes.
Now we shall say: The heroes fight like Greeks." - Winston Churchill - (From a speech he delivered from the BBC in the first days of the Greco-Italian war)

"I am sorry because I am getting old and I shall not live long to thank the Greek People, whose resistance decided WW II."
Joseph Stalin
(From a speech of his broadcast by the Moscow radio station on 31 January 1943 after the victory of Stalingrad and the capitulation of German 6th Army Field Marshal Von Paulus).

"If the Russian people managed to raise resistance at the doors of Moscow to halt and reverse the German torrent,they owe it to the Greek People, who delayed the German divisions during the time they could bring us to our knees."- Georgy Constantinovich Zhoukov -
Field Marshal of the Soviet Army: Quote from his memoirs on WWII)

"Regardless of what the future historians shall say, what we can say now, is that Greece gave Mussolini an unforgettable lesson, that she was the motive for the revolution in Yugoslavia, that she held the Germans in the mainland and in Crete for six weeks, that she upset the chronological order of all German High Command's plans and thus brought a general reversal of the entire course of the war and we won."- Sir Robert Antony Eden - Minister of War and the Exterior of Britain 1940-1945,
Prime Minister of Britain 1955-1957 - Paraphrased from a speech of his
to the British Parliament on 24/09/1942)

"It would not be an exaggeration to say that Greece upset the plans of Germany in their entirety forcing her to postpone the attack on Russia for six weeks. We wonder what would have been Soviet Union's position without Greece." Sir Harold Leofric George Alexander (British Field Marshal during WWII - Paraphrased from a speech of his to the British parliament on 28 October 1941)

"I am unable to give the proper breadth of gratitude I feel for the heroic resistance of the People and the leaders of Greece." Charles de Gaul(From a speech of his to the French Parliament after the end of WWII).

"You fought unarmed and won, small against big. We owe you gratitude, because you gave us time to defend ourselves. As Russians and as people we thank you." - Moscow, Radio Station When Hitler attacked the U.S.S.R.

"The war with Greece proved that nothing is firm in the military and that surprises always await us." Benito Mussolini(From speech he delivered on 10/5/1941)

"On the 28th of October 1940 Greece was given a deadline of three hours to decide on war or peace but even if a three day or three week or three year were given, the response would have been the same. The Greeks taught dignity throughout the centuries. When the entire world had lost all hope, the Greek people dared to question the invincibility of the German monster raising against it the proud spirit of freedom."Franklin D Roosevelt, US President 1933 - 1945

"The heroic struggle of the Greek people... Against Germany 's attack, after she so thunderously defeated the Italians in their attempt to invade the Greek soil, filled the hearts of the American people with enthusiasm and moved their compassion."Franklin D Roosevelt, US President 1933 - 1945

On 10 April 1941, after the Greek capitulation to Germany, the northern forts of Greece surrendered. The Germans express their admirations to Greek soldiers, declared that they were honored and proud to have as their adversary such an Army and request that the Greek commandant inspect the German army in a demonstration of honor and recognition! The German flag was raised only after the complete withdrawal of the Greek Army

A German officer of the air force declared to the commander of the Eastern Macedonia division group, Lieutenant General Dedes, that the Greek Arm was the first army on which the Stuka fighter planes did not cause panic. "Your soldiers" he said, "instead of fleeing frantically, as they did in France and Poland, were shooting at us from their positions."


I usually would not comment on history threads, but this issue is a little personal to me , as I have 2 grandfathers who fought for Greece during WW2

[Spartan]

1.Spartan, can you tell me where abouts in Greece did the battle against the invading Italians took place?

2.Was it locals from the region or an army from Athens which was sent up?

3.Was Nikola Gruevski's grandfather one of those that fought in those battles?


As for the the war of independence, please read my take on it here:

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...read.php?t=170

1.The battle took place in Albania, in Tirana to be exact.
2.Im not sure of the make-up of the whole army, but I know all the eligible men of the southern Peloponnese were mobilized to Albania(My grandfathers being among them).
3.I have no idea where Gruevskis father fought

[Risto the Great]

Impressive stuff Spartan!
I would say the national identity was forged around this time.

[Spartan]

Impressive stuff Spartan!
I would say the national identity was forged around this time.

Thanks Risto!
How are you doing my friend?
ILL let you and the more knowledgable guys debate about when the "identity was forged", but WW2 definitely was one of Greeces finest hours imo.

[Dejan]

“For the sake of historical truth I must verify that only the Greeks, of all the adversaries who confronted us, fought with bold courage and highest disregard of death.."-Adolph Hitler -(From speech he delivered to Reichstag on 4 May 1941)

Now to only find out what a 'greek' is...

[Spartan]

My friend
My point was simply the importance of Greeces effort in ww2
What a Greek is, as you put it, is a seperate issue all together

[Soldier of Macedon]

Spartan, your grandfather's fought in the Albanian capital city of Tirana against the Italians in defence of Greece? Are you sure about that my friend?

The Italians invaded from eastern Albanian heading towards the western border of the Greek state (ie; occupied Macedonia), and only after the initial defeat of the Italians did the army push past the Albanian borders deep into their territory.

What type of 'Greeks' live in north-western Greece? One's who are defending their homes like Gruevski's grandfather or one's fighting in the name some so-called "Hellenism"?

[Spartan]

Spartan, your grandfather's fought in the Albanian capital city of Tirana against the Italians in defence of Greece? Are you sure about that my friend?

Directly or indirectly, yes, I believe they were.
Why would Greece send troops to defend someone elses country?

Tirana was chosen as the spot of defense, because the much less heavily equipped Greek army could beat the Italian forces to the top of the mountain near Tirana, and thus gain a much more advantageous position.
Had the italian army advanced south of this mntain, it is doubtful the Greek army would have smashed mussollinis forces in the manner that they did.
I believe Macedonia was under Greek control at that time, therefore I conclude that yes, my grandfathers were fighting in defense of modern Greece.
A large force was dispatched to Tirana from Peloponiso, so I guess my grandfathers may have been fighting alongside your grandfathers to prevent the waps from entering into occupied Macedonia/Greece.
You see SoM, if the Italians had advanced into your land, ours would have been next...

[Soldier of Macedon]

Spartan, can you show me some literature with regard to the Greeks in Tirana?

I can't find nothing about Tirana here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Italian_War

http://www.123exp-history.com/t/03761020688/

http://www.mlahanas.de/Greece/History/GrecoItalianWar.html

On October 28, 1940, Mussolini ordered the attack in Greece. Despite having been inadequately prepeared for offensive in mountainous Greece, Italians initially achieved success. Before winter had even set in however, the Italians advance was stopped and they were forced onto the defensive. The Greeks launched a counter attack on November 14, 1940 which pushed the Italians back into Albania.

Nothing about Tirana my dear Spartan.

Why would Greece send troops to defend someone elses country?

Indeed, why would they? They didn't. The Greek army only entered Albania after the initial Italian attack.

Spartan, I am nobody to doubt the verbal history as told by your grandfathers, but are you sure there may be some dates or details which you have mixed up?

[Risto the Great]

Thanks Risto!
How are you doing my friend?
ILL let you and the more knowledgable guys debate about when the "identity was forged", but WW2 definitely was one of Greeces finest hours imo.

It was definitely one of Greece's finest hours.
My little secret in relation to this is that both of my Grandfathers were also defending Greece around this time. As Macedonians, they were sent straight to the front lines with the least of support.

Me on the other hand ... well, the only war I am having at the moment is the Battle of the Bulge after the Christmas and New Years festivities. But I will be competing in the Tour Down Under next week ... 100km of road cycling over the hills and far away ... so I will win this Battle soon!

[Spartan]

Spartan, can you show me some
Nothing about Tirana my dear Spartan.

You are correct, I was wrong.
I shouldnt have said that they were "dispatched to Tirana"
They were definitely not dispatched to Tirana.Nor did they get that far.
The story I have been told was that they were "halfway" to Tirana,(on the Greek counter-offensive) before they had to turn back.It came out wrong.

I apologise for my original statements concerning Tirana, they were false.

[Soldier of Macedon]

No need for apologies at all mate, I don't doubt the story you told at all, just that little bit on information there. Thanks for clarifying