Nikola Gruevski

[Soldier of Macedon]

There will be no agreement even Northern Macedonia was accepted because the fine print the greeks will insist on will be we become northern Macedonians and I cannot see anyone accepting this...

So why is Gruevski and DPNE still negotiating with Greece, and why is Ivanov still talking about finding a 'mutually acceptable' solution?

[Volk]

I don't believe DPmNE had any intention of taking it to referendum when they capitulated with RMSkopje. What do you rely on when you say this?

Gruevski admitted it in a interview, Milenko show I believe... If i can track it down I will post it up.. (it was several years ago)

Also they are not asking the people for a name but asking greece which one is suitable

what are you smoking? there is nothing to ask, there is one name and its Macedonia, ask the people BS what do you think 'the people' will say..

So why is Gruevski and DPNE still negotiating with Greece, and why is Ivanov still talking about finding a 'mutually acceptable' solution?

I dont think there has been any serious 'negotiating' for a long time probably since the NATO veto. Greece has drawn a line in the sand: The only Macedonians have to be greeks (turkish settlers)

Even if they wanted to negotiate some kind on name they could not because it goes way beyond that.

In my opinion its just a stupid dance they do to show the IC that they are constructive... the greeks have been doing that dance the whole time.

[Risto the Great]

Gruevski admitted it in a interview, Milenko show I believe... If i can track it down I will post it up.. (it was several years ago).

Don't bother Volk, I am very sure Gruevski would have said something like that after the offer was rejected by Greece.

[Soldier of Macedon]

In my opinion its just a stupid dance they do to show the IC that they are constructive... the greeks have been doing that dance the whole time.

The Greek dance doesn't make them look like fools. The Macedonian one makes us look like idiots who don't deserve their ancestral identity. So, if they're doing it to impress the IC, then their priorities are a foregone conclusion - EU/NATO intergration over Macedonian national integrity. Do you agree that this is treachery?

[George S.]

Volk you don't seem to get it macedonia has allready capitulated to the greeks on the name.Also you don't seem to get it that they are still negotiating about the name.
Volk you seem to be on the wacky tabacky as you are jumping from things to other things & you get a wrong picture.In 2006 i heard gruevski say that he would not change the name now we know he has allready changed the name .ROM (skopje)Gruevski is a traitor to the cause.Maybe if you stop your smoking & stop hallucinating you may get it for once.
How many people appeal to your good??sense to get you to accept it that gruevski has betrayed us.But we get wishy washy answers from you similar to fyrom that the politicians will sort it all out.That's why it's happening because people still beleive in the lying & thieving politicians & think they'll come good.Wake up.

[Volk]

The Greek dance doesn't make them look like fools. The Macedonian one makes us look like idiots who don't deserve their ancestral identity. So, if they're doing it to impress the IC, then their priorities are a foregone conclusion - EU/NATO intergration over Macedonian national integrity. Do you agree that this is treachery?

if EU/Nato integration was chosen over Macedonian national integrity i would say yes, that is treachery. At the moment they are peaking over that abyss.

Volk you don't seem to get it macedonia has allready capitulated to the greeks on the name.Also you don't seem to get it that they are still negotiating about the name.

I dont know if I should laugh or cry with that statement.. Try using your own brain and stop trying to regurgitate what other people are saying, or at least if you do the latter do it properly..

[Vangelovski]

if EU/Nato integration was chosen over Macedonian national integrity i would say yes, that is treachery. At the moment they are peaking over that abyss.

Who's peaking over what abyss?

[George S.]

"""/I dont know if I should laugh or cry with that statement.. Try using your own brain and stop trying to regurgitate what other people are saying, or at least if you do the latter do it properly.....You are funny volk do you really think before you say something & what do you think with you are using .....your arse.
_________What you seem to advocate capitulation_You admit that it is treachery at the same time you have macedonia in your volk srce???________t the moment they are peaking over that abyss.What is this stupid abyss you talk about??

[indigen]

Seeing some are putting down the government, maybe we could balance things with some achievements....

Care to comment on these IDEOLOGICALLY ANTI-MACEDONIAN DECONSTRUCTION AGENDAS DRIVEN BY THE GRUEVSKI GOVERNMENT? I observe that YOU seem to be very quick to stick the knife into the Grks but remain rather SILENT when issues related to the Eastern (TATAROMAN) FRONT arise for some strange reason!

---------------

It seems like they have provided a "regional" (read Bulgarian) character/identity to some of the other statues going up in Skopje.

And, BY IMPLICATION, THEY HAVE DONE THE SAME FOR THE MACEDONIAN HISTORICAL NATIONAL IDENTITY (ETHONGENISIS)!!! This a TREASONOUS ACT OF THE HIGHEST ORDER and should have caused OUTRAGE amongst right-thinking Macedonians and their organizations but we are witness to utter silence.

http://www.novinite.com/media/images/2011-04/photo_verybig_127542.jpg

On topic:

I got the answer from a member of Dostoinstvo, on the question WHY and WHEN they changed the logo, I will cite:

"кога се регистрираше партијата законите во РМ не дозволуваат користење на симболот на официјални пол. партии, НВО може ама не и партии и државни институции."

This law was brought in 2008 just before the NATO summit in Bucurest by the Government of VMRO-DPMNE practically proscribing the usage of the Kutlesh symbol.

[fyrOM]

I don't know what members here know of 'body language' but could I suggests people read at least something on the subject and then view Gruevski's interviews with an informed view rather than just carrying on about what a traitor he is - as stated in the past that I have based my opinion of him by his body language and actions. I think this is some evidence (all be it not something I can prove to you if you have no understanding of the subject) over your no evidence - what has the guy done to be so damned? Oh yeah, the suggestion (note NO ACTUAL) of a referendum! Wow!! you must be right - let's tie a noose on the nearest tree.

I can see most of you have completely ignored my explanation of the referendum and taken even its mere suggestion as absolute proof he is a traitor. The current situation is a game of one-up-man-ship in tactics to look like the more reasonable/logical party in the dispute while Macedonia is being built up economically/politically to the point countries around the world will want to support Macedonia and recognise her by her rightful name - or did you think those countries that currently DO recognise Macedonia ALL do so because they believe in righteousness and justice - tell me if you do and I'll show you a bridge I could sell you.

The 'game' becomes a race between possitioning Macedonia to garner the most number of countries recognising her to carry a UN vote before the EU/USA/Greek pressures become to great. The referendum is the release-valve on the 'pressure cooker' if things over-heat before Macedonia has enough votes for a successful UN vote by diffusing the moment of heat from Gruevski - see it's not me, the people don't want it and we need more time to create the 'right' environment (read give me more time to shore-up more votes around the world) and simultaneously to act as a back-stop if he or the government has a 'gun' put to their head - see it's not me, if you think another will do a better job then shoot me but you can't shoot every Macedonian!

If you don't believe this (hell, I'm supposed to be an anti-Macedonian, remember? - just look at my avatar), then answer me one question - Why did he bother/spend so much to get the diaspora to get their voting rights/papers in order when it is common knowledge the diaspora are completely against any name negotiations, let alone any name change?

Let me suggest an answer - Could it be he is counting on the diaspora to vote NO as a solid block and, being scattered around the world, more difficult to manipulate/switch everyone's vote as could be done more easily to the Macedonian votes in one place, ie Macedonia, and hence derail any 'fixing' of the referendum?

Like I said, I base my opinion of him of facts - both body language and actions - what are You basing your opinion of him on???

Wake-up and get your papers in order, if you haven't done so already, and push anyone you know who hasn't done so to do so! - it's a critical step in the 'war'/'game' for our name!

[Risto the Great]

then answer me one question - Why did he bother/spend so much to get the diaspora to get their voting rights/papers in order when it is common knowledge the diaspora are completely against any name negotiations, let alone any name change?

Let me suggest an answer - Could it be he is counting on the diaspora to vote NO as a solid block and, being scattered around the world, more difficult to manipulate/switch everyone's vote as could be done more easily to the Macedonian votes in one place, ie Macedonia, and hence derail any 'fixing' of the referendum?

Correct me if I am wrong. But isn't 1/3 of the diaspora elected politicians an Albanian? In which case it is the reverse of what you are saying.

Notwithstanding this, the fact that the Diaspora voting arrangements have proven to be an epic failure is another measure of Gruevski's incompetence.

[Vangelovski]

I may be wrong, but my understanding is that diaspora Macedonians can only vote for parliamentary elections (and maybe presidential) at this stage. I am unaware of any voting rights for referendums.

Again, I have not had the time to review the relevant legislation and would be happy for somone to confirm.

[fyrOM]

Correct me if I am wrong.

Ok, I will.

But isn't 1/3 of the diaspora elected politicians an Albanian?

Firstly, this is a product of affirmative action, which is one of the things wrong with the FA - it might be 'politically correct' to give minorities a go but affirmative action has many bad 'side effects' which most PC minded Liberal types choose to ignore - eg are you getting the best guy for the job as apposed to are you getting the best guy from this or that group who decided to put his hand up for the job. To all the PC types out there, a very politically incorrect example I once heard was, "If you were faced with a serious, life-threatening illness who would you want to be YOUR doctor - the guy who finished top of his class at Med school or someone who got into Med school because the University HAD TO fill a quota of students of this or that group to make up the class? Sure the 'make up the quota' guys had to know something to be able to get in at all, but if YOUR life or death depended on seeing or missing a minor 'sign' in your treatment would you still go with the guy way down a ranking list who would not have been in his Med class BUT FOR affirmative action?

We digress, as the diaspora 1 out of 3 politicians having to be Albanian has NOTHING TO DO with a referendum which is a vote of the people and not politicians/parliament. I only went on to answer the point of quotas (ie 1 out of 3) because I strongly disagree with affirmative action - as one of our Albanian decent posters once asked (in a different thread - I paraphrase as I can't be bothered to find the quote), "What's wrong with having a proportional 1/3 of the diaspora politicians being of Albanian decent given that 30 percent of the Macedonian population is of Albanian decent?" Regardless of the serious question hanging over that claim of 30 percent, even if this was the case, it is irrelevant to the question of democracy - when you have enough voters (of ANY decent) to vote someone into parliament is the ONLY time he can claim to truly represent the people, which is what a parliamentarian is supposed to be, and NOT because of a quota to make up the numbers. The firstly, IS he the best person in his field to hold the position and secondly democracy is NOT about the 'tail shaking the dog'. Quotas are an affront on both points!

As I said, we digress from the core of your point

But isn't 1/3 of the diaspora elected politicians an Albanian? In which case it is the reverse of what you are saying.

You have either grossly missed the point of what I was saying or haven't looked into referendums closely enough.

A referendum is a vote by the PEOPLE on a question with only a Yes or No answer and NOT a vote on the (any) question by the members of parliament so eg 80 percent of the politicians could be for a change of name but as long as eg 80 percent of the population is against then the name change cannot happen so having by quota 1 out of the 3 diaspora politicians of Albanian decent is irrelevant to the risk/danger of a name change happening.

My point was that the diaspora have very openly and loudly made known their overwhelming vote is NO to any name negotiations, let alone any change. This fact would, to any politician, mean the diaspora are a block NO vote and can be counted on with ABSOLUTE certainty as a 'back-stop' to derail any referendum going wrong in Macedonia, be it from stupidity/greed by the Macedonians in RoM or corruption and 'fixing' of the votes in RoM, so if the diaspora are the great 'saviors' of the name by voting down any name change referendum, why would a so called traitor, like Gruevski, make such a huge effort/expense of encouraging the diaspora to get their voting rights/papers in order knowing this would F up his own cheating, scheming, traitorous plans????

I then offered my own answer to this question, and that is the ONLY way the diaspora 'back-stop' CAN and WILL fail is if the Macedonian diaspora are SO lazy and do not bother to get their voting rights/papers in order before a referendum happens (so what if you think this or that if you have no right to vote and without correct voting papers/status your Macedonian decent means NOTHING and YOU WILL HAVE NO SAY ABOUT YOUR OWN NAME) hence Gruevski's huge effort/expense in trying to get the lazy/misinformed/uninformed Macedonian diaspora to ready themselves.

Having re-explained the explanation of a referendum (original in a different thread) I asked the question, "Why would a traitor try to help the diaspora get their voting rights/papers in order knowing they would vote against him?" and hence the logic behind my assertion that based on my understanding of body language AND Gruevski's actions (the diaspora 'back-stop' only being one of them) he is NO traitor but instead the spear-head of the Macedonian government and people world wide phalanx against All enemies and threats to the Macedonian identity!

I then asked the question of All posters who say Gruevski is a traitor to explain their reasoning why they think so - even if the answer is 'he is entertaining the idea of a referendum', I would still ask why does this make him a traitor? It's still an open question to all.

[fyrOM]

I may be wrong, but my understanding is that diaspora Macedonians can only vote for parliamentary elections (and maybe presidential) at this stage. I am unaware of any voting rights for referendums.

Again, I have not had the time to review the relevant legislation and would be happy for somone to confirm.

Good point Vangelovski!

Maybe some of our posters closer to Macedonian politics/government can offer some clarification.

I don't work for the government (contrary to one-time popular opinion) and at the distance of Australia and my previous disinterest in Macedonian politics I cannot confirm anything to you but would be absolutely ropeable if the diaspora could Not vote (if it came to this) in a referendum on the name as the question of the Macedonian identity rests with EVERY ethnic Macedonian regardless of where they live! I would be the first to agree the diaspora should have little if any input on issues like taxation ect as this directly effect how the people in RoM live and not the diaspora, but the name does not belong to the people of RoM only and they have no right to appropriate it for themselves only. I would be very surprised if it were the case the diaspora could not vote in a referendum.

[indigen]

I may be wrong, but my understanding is that diaspora Macedonians can only vote for parliamentary elections (and maybe presidential) at this stage. I am unaware of any voting rights for referendums.

Again, I have not had the time to review the relevant legislation and would be happy for someone to confirm.

Are we now in the game of being brainwashed by VASSAL politicians into partaking in a referendum for final Macedonian national suicide?

Иванов: Нова динамика во преговорите за името по изборите
Вторник, 10 Мај 2011

Претседателот на Република Македонија, Ѓорге Иванов во пресрет на неговата средба во Женева со генералниот секретар на Обединетите нации, Бан Ки-мун, изрази очекување дека по изборите на 5 јуни во преговорите со Грција за името ќе биде внесена нова динамика.



На средба со новинарите, Иванов информира дека име со географска одредница не и одговара на Република Македонија, додека за предлогот Република Македонија (Скопје), што беше прифатлив во Букурешт, вреди да се размисли и да им се објасни на граѓаните дека со тој предлог нема да се влијае на идентитетот.

Шефот на македонската држава најави дека по завршувањето на изборите, се планира средба на македонскиот преговарач Зоран Јолевски и грчкиот преговарач Адемантиос Василакис.

http://www.kurir.mk/makedonija/vesti/29004-Ivanov-Nova-dinamika-vo-pregovorite-za-imeto-po-izborite