Originally posted by Volk
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Nikola Gruevski
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Originally posted by Risto the Great View PostI don't believe DPmNE had any intention of taking it to referendum when they capitulated with RMSkopje. What do you rely on when you say this?
Also they are not asking the people for a name but asking greece which one is suitable
So why is Gruevski and DPNE still negotiating with Greece, and why is Ivanov still talking about finding a 'mutually acceptable' solution?
Even if they wanted to negotiate some kind on name they could not because it goes way beyond that.
In my opinion its just a stupid dance they do to show the IC that they are constructive... the greeks have been doing that dance the whole time.Makedonija vo Srce
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Originally posted by Volk View PostGruevski admitted it in a interview, Milenko show I believe... If i can track it down I will post it up.. (it was several years ago).Risto the Great
MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
"Holding my breath for the revolution."
Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com
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Originally posted by Volk View PostIn my opinion its just a stupid dance they do to show the IC that they are constructive... the greeks have been doing that dance the whole time.In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.
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Volk you don't seem to get it macedonia has allready capitulated to the greeks on the name.Also you don't seem to get it that they are still negotiating about the name.
Volk you seem to be on the wacky tabacky as you are jumping from things to other things & you get a wrong picture.In 2006 i heard gruevski say that he would not change the name now we know he has allready changed the name .ROM (skopje)Gruevski is a traitor to the cause.Maybe if you stop your smoking & stop hallucinating you may get it for once.
How many people appeal to your good??sense to get you to accept it that gruevski has betrayed us.But we get wishy washy answers from you similar to fyrom that the politicians will sort it all out.That's why it's happening because people still beleive in the lying & thieving politicians & think they'll come good.Wake up."Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
GOTSE DELCEV
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Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View PostThe Greek dance doesn't make them look like fools. The Macedonian one makes us look like idiots who don't deserve their ancestral identity. So, if they're doing it to impress the IC, then their priorities are a foregone conclusion - EU/NATO intergration over Macedonian national integrity. Do you agree that this is treachery?
Volk you don't seem to get it macedonia has allready capitulated to the greeks on the name.Also you don't seem to get it that they are still negotiating about the name.Makedonija vo Srce
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Originally posted by Volk View Postif EU/Nato integration was chosen over Macedonian national integrity i would say yes, that is treachery. At the moment they are peaking over that abyss.If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14
The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams
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"""/I dont know if I should laugh or cry with that statement.. Try using your own brain and stop trying to regurgitate what other people are saying, or at least if you do the latter do it properly.....You are funny volk do you really think before you say something & what do you think with you are using .....your arse.
_________What you seem to advocate capitulation_You admit that it is treachery at the same time you have macedonia in your volk srce???________t the moment they are peaking over that abyss.What is this stupid abyss you talk about??"Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
GOTSE DELCEV
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Originally posted by fyrOM View PostSeeing some are putting down the government, maybe we could balance things with some achievements....
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Originally posted by Vangelovski View PostIt seems like they have provided a "regional" (read Bulgarian) character/identity to some of the other statues going up in Skopje.
Originally posted by Bratot View PostOn topic:
I got the answer from a member of Dostoinstvo, on the question WHY and WHEN they changed the logo, I will cite:
"кога се регистрираше партијата законите во РМ не дозволуваат користење на симболот на официјални пол. партии, НВО може ама не и партии и државни институции."
This law was brought in 2008 just before the NATO summit in Bucurest by the Government of VMRO-DPMNE practically proscribing the usage of the Kutlesh symbol.Last edited by indigen; 05-08-2011, 12:53 AM.
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I don't know what members here know of 'body language' but could I suggests people read at least something on the subject and then view Gruevski's interviews with an informed view rather than just carrying on about what a traitor he is - as stated in the past that I have based my opinion of him by his body language and actions. I think this is some evidence (all be it not something I can prove to you if you have no understanding of the subject) over your no evidence - what has the guy done to be so damned? Oh yeah, the suggestion (note NO ACTUAL) of a referendum! Wow!! you must be right - let's tie a noose on the nearest tree.
I can see most of you have completely ignored my explanation of the referendum and taken even its mere suggestion as absolute proof he is a traitor. The current situation is a game of one-up-man-ship in tactics to look like the more reasonable/logical party in the dispute while Macedonia is being built up economically/politically to the point countries around the world will want to support Macedonia and recognise her by her rightful name - or did you think those countries that currently DO recognise Macedonia ALL do so because they believe in righteousness and justice - tell me if you do and I'll show you a bridge I could sell you.
The 'game' becomes a race between possitioning Macedonia to garner the most number of countries recognising her to carry a UN vote before the EU/USA/Greek pressures become to great. The referendum is the release-valve on the 'pressure cooker' if things over-heat before Macedonia has enough votes for a successful UN vote by diffusing the moment of heat from Gruevski - see it's not me, the people don't want it and we need more time to create the 'right' environment (read give me more time to shore-up more votes around the world) and simultaneously to act as a back-stop if he or the government has a 'gun' put to their head - see it's not me, if you think another will do a better job then shoot me but you can't shoot every Macedonian!
If you don't believe this (hell, I'm supposed to be an anti-Macedonian, remember? - just look at my avatar), then answer me one question - Why did he bother/spend so much to get the diaspora to get their voting rights/papers in order when it is common knowledge the diaspora are completely against any name negotiations, let alone any name change?
Let me suggest an answer - Could it be he is counting on the diaspora to vote NO as a solid block and, being scattered around the world, more difficult to manipulate/switch everyone's vote as could be done more easily to the Macedonian votes in one place, ie Macedonia, and hence derail any 'fixing' of the referendum?
Like I said, I base my opinion of him of facts - both body language and actions - what are You basing your opinion of him on???
Wake-up and get your papers in order, if you haven't done so already, and push anyone you know who hasn't done so to do so! - it's a critical step in the 'war'/'game' for our name!Last edited by fyrOM; 05-10-2011, 10:27 AM.
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Originally posted by fyrOM View Postthen answer me one question - Why did he bother/spend so much to get the diaspora to get their voting rights/papers in order when it is common knowledge the diaspora are completely against any name negotiations, let alone any name change?
Let me suggest an answer - Could it be he is counting on the diaspora to vote NO as a solid block and, being scattered around the world, more difficult to manipulate/switch everyone's vote as could be done more easily to the Macedonian votes in one place, ie Macedonia, and hence derail any 'fixing' of the referendum?
Notwithstanding this, the fact that the Diaspora voting arrangements have proven to be an epic failure is another measure of Gruevski's incompetence.Risto the Great
MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
"Holding my breath for the revolution."
Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com
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I may be wrong, but my understanding is that diaspora Macedonians can only vote for parliamentary elections (and maybe presidential) at this stage. I am unaware of any voting rights for referendums.
Again, I have not had the time to review the relevant legislation and would be happy for somone to confirm.If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14
The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams
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Originally posted by Risto the Great View PostCorrect me if I am wrong.
But isn't 1/3 of the diaspora elected politicians an Albanian?
We digress, as the diaspora 1 out of 3 politicians having to be Albanian has NOTHING TO DO with a referendum which is a vote of the people and not politicians/parliament. I only went on to answer the point of quotas (ie 1 out of 3) because I strongly disagree with affirmative action - as one of our Albanian decent posters once asked (in a different thread - I paraphrase as I can't be bothered to find the quote), "What's wrong with having a proportional 1/3 of the diaspora politicians being of Albanian decent given that 30 percent of the Macedonian population is of Albanian decent?" Regardless of the serious question hanging over that claim of 30 percent, even if this was the case, it is irrelevant to the question of democracy - when you have enough voters (of ANY decent) to vote someone into parliament is the ONLY time he can claim to truly represent the people, which is what a parliamentarian is supposed to be, and NOT because of a quota to make up the numbers. The firstly, IS he the best person in his field to hold the position and secondly democracy is NOT about the 'tail shaking the dog'. Quotas are an affront on both points!
As I said, we digress from the core of your point
But isn't 1/3 of the diaspora elected politicians an Albanian? In which case it is the reverse of what you are saying.
A referendum is a vote by the PEOPLE on a question with only a Yes or No answer and NOT a vote on the (any) question by the members of parliament so eg 80 percent of the politicians could be for a change of name but as long as eg 80 percent of the population is against then the name change cannot happen so having by quota 1 out of the 3 diaspora politicians of Albanian decent is irrelevant to the risk/danger of a name change happening.
My point was that the diaspora have very openly and loudly made known their overwhelming vote is NO to any name negotiations, let alone any change. This fact would, to any politician, mean the diaspora are a block NO vote and can be counted on with ABSOLUTE certainty as a 'back-stop' to derail any referendum going wrong in Macedonia, be it from stupidity/greed by the Macedonians in RoM or corruption and 'fixing' of the votes in RoM, so if the diaspora are the great 'saviors' of the name by voting down any name change referendum, why would a so called traitor, like Gruevski, make such a huge effort/expense of encouraging the diaspora to get their voting rights/papers in order knowing this would F up his own cheating, scheming, traitorous plans????
I then offered my own answer to this question, and that is the ONLY way the diaspora 'back-stop' CAN and WILL fail is if the Macedonian diaspora are SO lazy and do not bother to get their voting rights/papers in order before a referendum happens (so what if you think this or that if you have no right to vote and without correct voting papers/status your Macedonian decent means NOTHING and YOU WILL HAVE NO SAY ABOUT YOUR OWN NAME) hence Gruevski's huge effort/expense in trying to get the lazy/misinformed/uninformed Macedonian diaspora to ready themselves.
Having re-explained the explanation of a referendum (original in a different thread) I asked the question, "Why would a traitor try to help the diaspora get their voting rights/papers in order knowing they would vote against him?" and hence the logic behind my assertion that based on my understanding of body language AND Gruevski's actions (the diaspora 'back-stop' only being one of them) he is NO traitor but instead the spear-head of the Macedonian government and people world wide phalanx against All enemies and threats to the Macedonian identity!
I then asked the question of All posters who say Gruevski is a traitor to explain their reasoning why they think so - even if the answer is 'he is entertaining the idea of a referendum', I would still ask why does this make him a traitor? It's still an open question to all.
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Originally posted by Vangelovski View PostI may be wrong, but my understanding is that diaspora Macedonians can only vote for parliamentary elections (and maybe presidential) at this stage. I am unaware of any voting rights for referendums.
Again, I have not had the time to review the relevant legislation and would be happy for somone to confirm.
Maybe some of our posters closer to Macedonian politics/government can offer some clarification.
I don't work for the government (contrary to one-time popular opinion) and at the distance of Australia and my previous disinterest in Macedonian politics I cannot confirm anything to you but would be absolutely ropeable if the diaspora could Not vote (if it came to this) in a referendum on the name as the question of the Macedonian identity rests with EVERY ethnic Macedonian regardless of where they live! I would be the first to agree the diaspora should have little if any input on issues like taxation ect as this directly effect how the people in RoM live and not the diaspora, but the name does not belong to the people of RoM only and they have no right to appropriate it for themselves only. I would be very surprised if it were the case the diaspora could not vote in a referendum.
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Originally posted by Vangelovski View PostI may be wrong, but my understanding is that diaspora Macedonians can only vote for parliamentary elections (and maybe presidential) at this stage. I am unaware of any voting rights for referendums.
Again, I have not had the time to review the relevant legislation and would be happy for someone to confirm.
Иванов: Нова динамика во преговорите за името по изборите
Вторник, 10 Мај 2011
Претседателот на Република Македонија, Ѓорге Иванов во пресрет на неговата средба во Женева со генералниот секретар на Обединетите нации, Бан Ки-мун, изрази очекување дека по изборите на 5 јуни во преговорите со Грција за името ќе биде внесена нова динамика.
На средба со новинарите, Иванов информира дека име со географска одредница не и одговара на Република Македонија, додека за предлогот Република Македонија (Скопје), што беше прифатлив во Букурешт, вреди да се размисли и да им се објасни на граѓаните дека со тој предлог нема да се влијае на идентитетот.
Шефот на македонската држава најави дека по завршувањето на изборите, се планира средба на македонскиот преговарач Зоран Јолевски и грчкиот преговарач Адемантиос Василакис.
Last edited by indigen; 05-10-2011, 09:03 PM.
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