Nikola Gruevski

[George S.]

Bill next time gruevski comes to australia promise me you will be the first to let him have the rotten eggs & rotten tomatoes.A very befitting gesture to a traitor.

[Risto the Great]

So if this is correct, the 8 rays (original) is more a Macedonian symbol and the 16 ray is more of an Alexander symbol. Oh here we go again

Bill, no need to be confused.
There was only one symbol that free Macedonians chose.

[Bill77]

Bill, no need to be confused.
There was only one symbol that free Macedonians chose.

I see your point.

But even these symbols on the shields displayed in Bitola, look nothing like a ventilator that is shamefully used as a state flag. If it is true, that the 8 ray sun is original symbol used by the Ancient Macedonians (pre Alexander) then its still our symbol regardless if it was not chosen as our original flag just like the lion is a symbol. Unlike the ventilator, which has no historical connections to Macedonia.

[indigen]

Now i am a little confused. By coincidence, I just read a old post by Indi where he claims " The original symbol used by the Ancient Macedonians was an 8 pointed/ray star...the additional 8 rays were added during Alexander the Greats reign as a symbol of the 'brilliance' of his reign and empire..."

If you mean "Indigen", then you are mistaken in saying I said that. Though I would not deny that the 8-ray sun was common and appears on many coin issues.

So if this is correct, the 8 rays (original) is more a Macedonian symbol and the 16 ray is more of an Alexander symbol. Oh here we go again

Stop CONFUSING YOURSELF and THE REAL ISSUES, BILL! FYI, the VENTILATOR, apart from having 8 BLADES ("rays"), has NOTHING to DO WITH ANCIENT MACEDONIAN SYMBOLS and this has been politically VERIFIED BY INTERNATIONAL HIERARCHY!

Secondly, these "8-Ray" Suns on the shields have the AMPUTATION STUMPS VISIBLE ON THE SURGICALLY-REMOVED OTHER 8-RAYS! IT IS LIKE SHARIA LAW - YOU STEAL AND YOUR ARMS GET CHOPPED OFF!!!
IT IS A VISIBLE WARNING FROM THE GRK MULLAHS - DO NOT "STEAL" MACEDONIAN HERITAGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



NB: Bill, "Indigen" stands for indigenous (and in the process of using it, I want to make the point that Macedonians are Indigenous!) and "Indi" could stand for Indian or nothing, thus I would appreciate it if you would not use that designation.

[Bill77]

If you mean "Indigen", then you are mistaken in saying I said that. Though I would not deny that the 8-ray sun was common and appears on many coin issues.

Sorry, you were quoting Phoenix. I was reading the "How was the Star of Kutlesh flag chosen?" thread which is archived in a PDA format, http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...hp/t-4370.html

which does not seperate "Quotes" and looks like they are your words.
I apoligise mate.

But if you can not deny the 8-ray sun was common, then no one can deny its also our symbol.

Stop CONFUSING YOURSELF and THE REAL ISSUES, BIll! FYI, the VENTILATOR, apart from having 8 BLADES ("rays"), has NOTHING to DO WITH ANCIENT MACEDONIAN SYMBOLS and this has been politically VERIFIED BY INTERNATIONAL HIERARCHY!

I am not confused regarding the ventilator. As i said in my next post, i don't see the Ancient Macedonian 8 ray symbol displayed in Bitola resembling the ventilator. If the "pro ventilator" people try to compare it, they are wrong. Don't tell me you compare them?

A) The tips on the 8-ray is visible, not on the ventilator.
B) The rays on the Ancient symbol are broad near the center circle and narrow as they go out giving the Sun or star effect.
The ventilator on the other hand, starts Narrow in the middle and broadens as it goes out. Look at any fans or propellers, thats how they are designed.

Secondly, these "8-Ray" Suns on the shields have the AMPUTATION STUMPS VISIBLE ON THE SURGICALLY-REMOVED OTHER 8-RAYS!

Thats another argument. If they originally had 16- Rays and 8 removed and the motive behind it is what you say. Then its a disgrace that it was done for those reasons.

NB: Bill, "Indigen" stands for indigenous (and in the process of using it, I want to make the point that Macedonians are Indigenous!) and "Indi" could stand for Indian or nothing, thus I would appreciate it if you would not use that designation.

NM: Bill could stand for anyone, where in fact i want to be held responsible for what i post be it bad or good. Thus i would appreciate if you would add 77 on the end of Bill.

Come on mate.........OK i will respect your wish from now on.

[George S.]

Bill the politicians have sold us out for the ventilator.A lot of macedonians preferred the 16 ray sun & who has the right to make them change it, the whole plan was devised by greece to make the politicians "force"them to capitulate & choose another flag.Now you know that the 16 ray sun symbol isa registered symbol of the hellenic republic & no one can use it without their permission.The greeks tried to stop the name is a name film because it'sgot the 16 ray sun symbol.

[Bill77]

Bill the politicians have sold us out for the ventilator.A lot of macedonians preferred the 16 ray sun & who has the right to make them change it, the whole plan was devised by greece to make the politicians "force"them to capitulate & choose another flag.Now you know that the 16 ray sun symbol isa registered symbol of the hellenic republic & no one can use it without their permission.The greeks tried to stop the name is a name film because it'sgot the 16 ray sun symbol.

Well-oil-beef-hooked

George, do you ever read what the conversation is about?
How can i explain to you any further to what i just wrote? Please ask.
Why are you telling me something that is common knowledge.

[George S.]

Bill you areadvocating that weshould like & use the ventilator.A goodmany people say no because they have forgone the real flag which is the real flag 16 ray sun.You go on that it's ok to use the ventilator flag because it might be acceptable to someone else & historically it might be alexanders flag this is immaterial the fact we haveallready lost the right to use our original flag.Your talking common knowledge how about the manner macedonia was forced to capitulate on it's flag or are you happy to accept the ventilator??Bill cut the crap & admit it the ventilator is 2nd best.I will not accept a compromised flag such as the venrilator but you would.Where is your common knowledge on that.?

[George S.]

Bill one question for you is do you accept the ventilator flag as your flag you will answer my question.Or do you prefer the 16 ray sun flag.??I prefer the 16 ray sun flag and won't accept a compromised flag.
Also come clean do you support nikola gruevski or not.??Personally i think he isa traitor to the macedonian cause & he haslet usdown & lied to us badly.

[indigen]

Sorry, you were quoting Phoenix. I was reading the "How was the Star of Kutlesh flag chosen?" thread which is archived in a PDA format, http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...hp/t-4370.html

which does not separate "Quotes" and looks like they are your words.
I apologise mate.

No worries, I understand and now know what you are talking about!

But if you can not deny the 8-ray sun was common, then no one can deny its also our symbol.

True but, like many other symbols, it may not be uniquely Macedonian! Though it appears to have been used very often on Macedonian coin issues, many other symbols were also used, including lion, horse/s, eagle, goat, wolf, spearhead, helmet, among others.

I am not confused regarding the ventilator. As i said in my next post,

I can see that now but it was not obvious to me in your above post and because you have been a supporter of the Ventilator in the past, I assumed you took a similar line to the youngsters (and others who have swallowed some fantasies designed to deceive the uninformed and gullible) who try to make such unfounded claims. Well, I am glad you are clear on that and we move on!

I don't see the Ancient Macedonian 8 ray symbol displayed in Bitola resembling the ventilator.

Neither do I but the connotations are the same and it would pay you to revisit the post by RTG on which started this discussion with me!!! THERE IS A VERY PERTINENT AND POINTED MESSAGE FROM RTG that seems to have gone completely over your head, IMHO!

HINT: You will not find any historical symbol resembling what is in the picture and it is NOT an "Ancient Macedonian 8 ray symbol" but a MUTILATED 16-ray SUN Symbol with 8 rays removed!!!

If the "pro ventilator" people try to compare it, they are wrong. Don't tell me you compare them?

You will NOT find me comparing it to anything except the FAN but those defenders of the Ventilator have even found "stone-age" roots in their DELUDED fantasies! Hahaha

A) The tips on the 8-ray is visible, not on the ventilator.
B) The rays on the Ancient symbol are broad near the center circle and narrow as they go out giving the Sun or star effect.
The ventilator on the other hand, starts Narrow in the middle and broadens as it goes out. Look at any fans or propellers, thats how they are designed.

Taka neka bide!

Thats another argument. If they originally had 16- Rays and 8 removed and the motive behind it is what you say. Then its a disgrace that it was done for those reasons.

I URGE you to read attentively what Niko posted, what RTG commented and what Miloshoski wrote to Ban Ki Moon (UN) before further discussing this issue.

Come on mate.........OK i will respect your wish from now on.

If you wish, you (or anyone else) can use abbreviations such I. or Indg or indg. but indi takes on a different meaning from what I intended my login to be.

RTG: These "soncina" must have another 8 invisible rays that only dedicated DPMNE lovers can see Prolet. I can't see 'em.

[indigen]

ВЛАДО ПОПОВСКИ, професор на правниот факултет

http://star.dnevnik.com.mk/?pBroj=2252&stID=22720

"....Тие дури сметаат дека албанското знаме е постаро и од албанската држава. Затоа Албанците каде и да живеат, преку знамето на Албанија го манифестираат сопствениот идентитет.

l Како тоа да го сфатат Македонците?

- Друго е прашањето што Македонците немаат етничко знаме. Кај Македонците е создадена свест дека преку државното знаме се манифестира и етничката припадност. Тоа, пак, кај албанското население создава претстава дека македонскиот народ го монополизира државното знаме во насока дека државата е само на Македонците, а не на сите граѓани.

l Зарем државно знаме содржи нешто тенденциозно спрема етничките чувства на Албанците?

- Симболот на официјалното знаме е универзален, а не етнички, и се однесува на сите граѓани. Друга ситуација ќе имавме со првото знаме што беше со ѕвездата од Кутлеш, која е од времето на Античка Македонија. Тогаш со тоа знаме би се идентификувале оние што се сметаат за потомци на Филип и на Александар Македонски.


The original 1992-95 RoM flag was in itself a MODIFIED (cut-down) version of the (TRUE) MACEDONIAN SUN SYMBOL (from Kutlesh and many other places) in order not to offend the Grks. Macedonians who knew and know their heritage did/do not utilise it but stick to the original design, which they have been using for many years prior 1992 mods.


Macedonian Rally - Sydney 9 May 1993 (amongst the 200 plus large Macedonian Sun Flags, NOT ONE Sonchogled (aka drzavno) zname in sight! There was an IDEOLOGICAL PERSPECTIVE TO THIS RALLY!)

Larger image of above photo

10 години од промената на државното знаме
Весна В. Тодоровска
05.10.2005

Државното знаме е старо 10 години. На 5-ти октомври 95-тата, Македонија под притисок на Грција го усвои сегашното и ги замени 16-те краци од Кутлеш, откриени во 70-тите години на гробот на Филип Македонски.

И сега сме под притисок на Грција, овојпат за името. Добивме ли нешто со уставната промена на знамето?

„Таа одлука беше направена од незрелост од луѓето кои беа на власт, кои не ја сфаќаа силата на симболите и затоа го имаме овој проблем сега - дека еден голем дел од луѓето не го сфаќаат тоа знаме како свое“, изјави Јован Јоновски, претседател на македонското-хералдичко друштво.

„Не знам што беше таа промена која побаруваше да се променат државните симболи. Кога тие се променуваат - кога доаѓа до големи промени, во намалувањето на територии, зголемувањето на територии, нови царства, нови владетели. Кај нас не се случи ништо“, рече Јоновски.

За 15 години самостојност, државното знаме трипати се промени. Прво се тргна социјалистичката звезда, вторпат сонцето од Кутлеш. Денешното е направено по идеја на архитектот Грчев, иако тој вели дека не било идентично со неговиот предлог.

Ден пред седницата на која е изгласано знамето, тајно била донесена партиски договорена одлука за неговиот изглед, обвинува Грчев.

„Веројатно е резултат на некоја брза и нервозна дебата, која што целеше да ги смири политичките разлики“, изјави Мирослав Грчев, автор на студијата државно знаме.

Сегашново знаме нема автор - вели Грчев, кој не е задоволен од изгледот. Тоа е спротивно на принципот на златна пропорција.

„Македонија треба да направи еден чисто домаќински, занаетски и естетски напор, да го дотера знамето, не менувајќи ништо од неговиот израз, стилизација, мотив“, рече Грчев.

И денеска Македонија се соочува со проблемот државно знаме. Овие пратеници му дадоа шанса на туѓо државно знаме да се вее покрај македонското.

http://www.a1.com.mk/vesti/default.aspx?VestID=52275

for fair use only.

The process of adoption of the current flag of Macedonia

In his book Znaci i ornamenti (Muzej na sovremena umetnost, Skopje 2005), Pr. Grcev (b. 1955, Professor of Urban Planning at the Faculty of Architecture of Skoplje) provides his original flag proposal and the construction sheet. The flag was designed to be in proportions 5:8 (being a nice approximation of the Golden section Φ, according to Grcev, with the mesh of 10 x 16 squares (let's call this length A) providing for the design elements - the central disk was to be circumscribing the central four such squares (i.e. having diameter of A*sqrt(2) ) while the eight yellow rays were to be triangles - the vertical rays with apexes in the centre of the flag and bases 2 Along, the horizontal rays with apexes one A away from the centre in opposite direction and bases also 2 A long. The diagonal rays had apexes in opposite corners of a rectangle 2 A wide and 1.25 A high (i.e. having diagonals matching the diagonals of the flag!) while having base 3 A long along the top and bottom edges and touching the host and fly edges - so that the flag diagonals from the division lines between red and yellow there.
Apparently the Parliament (or probably some of its committees) decided to amend the overall proportions and added the red ring around the sun disk.

Željko Heimer, 12 February 2009

At link below one can see a design by Grchev that appears to be his original intention:
http://www.msuskopje.org.mk/msu.php?...1&id=1&exhid=8

Original Grchev design clearly exposes the delusional claims about "ancient rock art" inspirations! :-)

---------

Bill77, in case you forgot, a refresher on some pertinent info regarding the Ventilator.

[Bill77]

George, Lay off the drugs.
I have felt sorry for you and let you be till now.
Now no more mr nice guy.

Bill you areadvocating that weshould like & use the ventilator.A goodmany people say no because they have forgone the real flag which is the real flag 16 ray sun.You go on that it's ok to use the ventilator flag because it might be acceptable to someone else & historically it might be alexanders flag this is immaterial the fact we haveallready lost the right to use our original flag.Your talking common knowledge how about the manner macedonia was forced to capitulate on it's flag or are you happy to accept the ventilator??Bill cut the crap & admit it the ventilator is 2nd best.I will not accept a compromised flag such as the venrilator but you would.Where is your common knowledge on that.?

Show me where i'm advocating the ventilator?
Ti na vistina si go izgubi umot

[Bill77]

Bill one question for you is
A) do you accept the ventilator flag as your flag you will answer my question.Or do you prefer the 16 ray sun flag.??I prefer the 16 ray sun flag and won't accept a compromised flag.

B)Also come clean do you support nikola gruevski or not.??Personally i think he isa traitor to the macedonian cause & he haslet usdown & lied to us badly.

George, now thats two questions.

George, I prefer the blue and white striped with a cross in the top left hand corner. Second favorite is the red flag with the two headed eagle. But my real real favorite bestest flag! is the Gay Rainbow flag. there are some pretty colours in it.

Secondly, i support Nikola because for the obvious reasons, Nikola Gruevski is a sexy name. And the fact my second favorite flag is displayed all over the country thanks to his party. But most of all is the fact that he is Greek.

George, stay off the drugs. Now answer my above question please.

[George S.]

Bill thank you for not answering & admitting you like the greek flag & how you just love to wrap yourself in it & you are just admitted to your greek tendencies.How can i stay off the drugs when i haven't been to start with.Thanks for your comments Bill or is it bill77.In answer to your question i think you prefer to be a greek probably.

[George S.]

Bill i forgot to mention i just read another thread about the interim accord & how we got the raw deal in that i recommend you read it seriously.
Ps i'm pissed off over that what the politicians are doing to macedonia.